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Old 02-10-2013, 09:57 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
So you're saying you play exclusively 2-gap and have no need for someone who can penetrate from the inside on passing downs?

EDIT: I'm semi-seriously asking the first question and being obviously facetious with the second.
Yes, we have a quality one gapper and his name is Desmond Bryant. Also, Houston could play that role when lined up on the inside.

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Old 02-10-2013, 10:00 PM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
I'd take Ogletree over Minter.
In the modern NFL, where 3rd and 2 is a passing down, I think most people would take Ogletree over Minter.

He's the only LB in this draft I feel really good about in coverage.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:03 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
I was under the impression that Houston would continue to play end and none of those other guys are locks to be back.

2-gap run cloggers are usually not difficult to find and are rarely top picks.

I think the main problem with your D was scheme and discipline, similar to the Bucs two years ago.
No, it wasn't discipline, rather it wasn't just discipline last year. Seymour and Kelly are FAR too similar in terms of their game as well as their age. And of course, we had nothing that resembled an edge rusher. You could see the stark difference when Bryant replaced Seymour and Gaither replaced McClain.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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In the modern NFL, where 3rd and 2 is a passing down, I think most people would take Ogletree over Minter.

He's the only LB in this draft I feel really good about in coverage.
The point I was making about the three MLB going in a row is that it wouldn't happen because the third team would appear to be settling.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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I just don't know how I feel about Alec Ogletree to the Giants. Looking at the board I guess I'd prefer Kevin Minter, but it wasn't an awful selection.

I just don't think Ogletree is a Giant type player or at the very least I cannot picture him in the uniform.

He's kind of undersized and kind of soft... that is not a good combination at all.
He's a dynamic player who is probably a good fit for the Giants. When is the last time they had a playmaker at the position?
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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He's a dynamic player who is probably a good fit for the Giants. When is the last time they had a playmaker at the position?
Playmaker? Probably Armstead.

The Giants have won 2 super bowls with sub-par LBs. Both times with slow as hell but field general type MLBs in Pierce and Blackburn. Michael Boley has probably been our most talented LB the past few seasons and the guy was just cut.

Looking at that mock, I can't hate the pick much because of who else was available. If Ansah went one pick before us I would truly be sad. There are a good amount of players I'd like over Ogletree though.

However, Ogletree just doesn't impress me that much. Yeah the man is athletic as hell but he plays soft. I can see Alfred Morris bowling this guy over 2x a year. I like Minter overall better, but I guess Ogletree has more potential, maybe I am old school. Also, I guess in a passing league its more important to have a coverage WILL than a run-thumping MIKE.

He kinda reminds me of Gerris Wilkinson, just less injury prone I guess.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:22 AM    (permalink
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As a Jags fan I've been wondering if we might go Jarvis Jones - watching Jones quickness he looks a lot like Bruce Irvin, but better against the run. Combine medical pending of course!

I'd take Floyd over Star - when he's on Star is better, just doesn't do it enough.

I must admit I'm far more comfortable with Joeckel at 5 - I know the lack of real star power makes it tough to have the top pick this year, but I don't think he's good enough for #1. Having said that I'd take Joeckel over Geno Smith, I'm not even sure he'll be my #1 QB...

Eric Fisher was great at the Senior Bowl - but his tape I've thought is mixed. I watched the Toledo game on the weekend and he gave up a sack (outside speed) and got beaten inside by quickness a couple of times. Hands were low when setting up in pass protection - had the Wes Bunting "chicken wings" going on at times. At times he looked like he did in Mobile, but more after he got his hands on his man - before he looked all over the place. Certainly I could make a case for Lane Johnson ahead of him and post combine that case might get even stronger.

A little low for Damontre Moore for me.

Love Vaccaro - I wouldn't complain if he went top 5. Safety with press man coverage skills.

Much better placing for Werner - I've seen him mocked to the Jags so much I'm getting worried!! Not a fan.

Is Mingo a Steelers fit? Too light? Guess he can add bulk.

Been doing more work on Ogletree and he's wildly inconsistent - can't get off blocks at all. Te'o didn't play as well down the stretch (including the Alabama game of course). But Minter more consistent - looks good enough athletically, so I would take Minter first and I don't know if Ogletree is a 1st rounder.

I like Keenan Allen much more than the 25th pick - out of sight, out of mind perhaps? Not a blazer, but A.J. Green didn't exactly run a super fast time at the Combine and he's done well enough. His half brother at QB certainly didn't help him at times.

I know the Seahawks like bigger CB's - so I'm thinking Rhodes might be the Jags pick at the top of the 2nd if he's there. Not his biggest fan, so would rather someone took him at the back end of one!

I'd take Hankins in the top 10 - played as a DE in a hybrid front, which wasn't a great fit (even saw him line up on the tackles outside shoulder a few times). But when he's at the 1 technique spot he was dominant. Can't see Houston passing him up if he's there.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:34 AM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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As a Jags fan I've been wondering if we might go Jarvis Jones - watching Jones quickness he looks a lot like Bruce Irvin, but better against the run. Combine medical pending of course!

I'd take Floyd over Star - when he's on Star is better, just doesn't do it enough.

I must admit I'm far more comfortable with Joeckel at 5 - I know the lack of real star power makes it tough to have the top pick this year, but I don't think he's good enough for #1. Having said that I'd take Joeckel over Geno Smith, I'm not even sure he'll be my #1 QB...

Eric Fisher was great at the Senior Bowl - but his tape I've thought is mixed. I watched the Toledo game on the weekend and he gave up a sack (outside speed) and got beaten inside by quickness a couple of times. Hands were low when setting up in pass protection - had the Wes Bunting "chicken wings" going on at times. At times he looked like he did in Mobile, but more after he got his hands on his man - before he looked all over the place. Certainly I could make a case for Lane Johnson ahead of him and post combine that case might get even stronger.

A little low for Damontre Moore for me.

Love Vaccaro - I wouldn't complain if he went top 5. Safety with press man coverage skills.

Much better placing for Werner - I've seen him mocked to the Jags so much I'm getting worried!! Not a fan.

Is Mingo a Steelers fit? Too light? Guess he can add bulk.

Been doing more work on Ogletree and he's wildly inconsistent - can't get off blocks at all. Te'o didn't play as well down the stretch (including the Alabama game of course). But Minter more consistent - looks good enough athletically, so I would take Minter first and I don't know if Ogletree is a 1st rounder.

I like Keenan Allen much more than the 25th pick - out of sight, out of mind perhaps? Not a blazer, but A.J. Green didn't exactly run a super fast time at the Combine and he's done well enough. His half brother at QB certainly didn't help him at times.

I know the Seahawks like bigger CB's - so I'm thinking Rhodes might be the Jags pick at the top of the 2nd if he's there. Not his biggest fan, so would rather someone took him at the back end of one!

I'd take Hankins in the top 10 - played as a DE in a hybrid front, which wasn't a great fit (even saw him line up on the tackles outside shoulder a few times). But when he's at the 1 technique spot he was dominant. Can't see Houston passing him up if he's there.

LOL, where was all this support for Floyd a month and a half ago when his name wasn't even mentioned as a first rounder?? Now because some talking heads tell us a GM really likes him, he is a top five player?? Please....

Even if he turns out to be a decent player, there is nothing on film that suggests he is going to be a superstar player. There is simply nothing to justify him as a top five pick. If the Raider pick him, then any delusions we had about being able to stop the run would have flew straight out the window. Once again, we have a 27 year old Desmond Bryant in his prime and he gets off of blocks. Floyd is simply a bad pairing with him as we need a NT type DT. We also showed some 3-4 looks, so a two gap NT is paramount.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:43 AM    (permalink
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LOL, where was all this support for Floyd a month and a half ago when his name wasn't even mentioned as a first rounder?? Now because some talking heads tell us a GM really likes him, he is a top five player?? Please....

Even if he turns out to be a decent player, there is nothing on film that suggests he is going to be a superstar player. There is simply nothing to justify him as a top five pick. If the Raider pick him, then any delusions we had about being able to stop the run would have flew straight out the window. Once again, we have a 27 year old Desmond Bryant in his prime and he gets off of blocks. Floyd is simply a bad pairing with him as we need a NT type DT. We also showed some 3-4 looks, so a two gap NT is paramount.
His support started when it became apparent he'd declare. Even before that he was looked at as a top 40 prospect.

His value is rising, mainly because of the value of a one gap pass rushing tackle. But I suspect it's also rising as people are looking at him closely and liking what they see. I don't think he's the equal of Richardson but he does have more potential as he has greater physical tools to work with.

I don't see him as a top 10 guy either. But I can see there are really 3 guys at the top of the heap (Lotulelei, Richardson and Floyd). So it's conceivable that a team likes Floyd better than the other two.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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His support started when it became apparent he'd declare. Even before that he was looked at as a top 40 prospect.

His value is rising, mainly because of the value of a one gap pass rushing tackle. But I suspect it's also rising as people are looking at him closely and liking what they see. I don't think he's the equal of Richardson but he does have more potential as he has greater physical tools to work with.

I don't see him as a top 10 guy either. But I can see there are really 3 guys at the top of the heap (Lotulelei, Richardson and Floyd). So it's conceivable that a team likes Floyd better than the other two.
I get all that, but i don't get how his po..po....potential outweighs the production of the DTs in front of him. Like what you see all you want, the bottom line is he is undersized, he doesn't get off blocks and his production isn't close to most of the other highly rated DTs. Short has had at least 6 sacks in each of his final three years. In his NFL.com profile that I just read about 20 minutes ago, it says what I said, which is that he gets stood up and can't get off of blocks once he is engaged.

As far as being picked up the Raiders, it is TOTAL nonsense. Houston is already very similar player. Bryant is actually much better at what Floyd does which is penetration. Bryant has proven he can get off of blocks of NFL caliber OGs. If we were to add a DT, it needs to be one with size who can anchor and eat blockers, not another penetrator.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Mock drafts in all likelihood are no longer of much value anymore. With the rookie wage scale we've seen many trades in the 1st round that pretty much changes the outlook of the draft to a point that no mock draft will be very accurate.

They're just creating buzz by throwing a couple of wtf names out there. That's the name of the game right now. They're trying to get as many hits as possible.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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I like mock drafts as a fun element to this process but there is really so many variables that make getting close to accurate is fairly impossible. All it takes is a blockbuster trade like the Atl trade for Julio and everything is blown up. Likewise it only takes one team to love a player way more than any other (thinking Tyson Alualu, Tavon Wilson etc).

Mocks show people's perceptions of team needs and value but really they mean nothing and even until the draft starts no mock will be remotely close to what actually happens
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Mock drafts in all likelihood are no longer of much value anymore. With the rookie wage scale we've seen many trades in the 1st round that pretty much changes the outlook of the draft to a point that no mock draft will be very accurate.

They're just creating buzz by throwing a couple of wtf names out there. That's the name of the game right now. They're trying to get as many hits as possible.
I totally agree that they are just creating buzz. If this thread is any indication, mission accomplished. Even so, this propping up of Floyd still comes off as a cheap parlor trick. He is listed as 290 pounds, his thing is penetration but has less sacks than a 325 pound NT ranked ahead of him and he has demonstrated he can't easily get off of blocks once engaged- yet this guy is being mocked like he had the credentials of Marcell Darius coming out.

PS: When is Rasheed Wallace coming back? We need him!
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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I totally agree that they are just creating buzz. If this thread is any indication, mission accomplished. Even so, this propping up of Floyd still comes off as a cheap parlor trick. He is listed as 290 pounds, his thing is penetration but has less sacks than a 325 pound NT ranked ahead of him and he has demonstrated he can't easily get off of blocks once engaged- yet this guy is being mocked like he had the credentials of Marcell Darius coming out.

PS: When is Rasheed Wallace coming back? We need him!
I don't think he is bro :(

We gotta sign Kenyon Martin soon. I think Sheed is done and they're just hiding it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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I get all that, but i don't get how his po..po....potential outweighs the production of the DTs in front of him. Like what you see all you want, the bottom line is he is undersized, he doesn't get off blocks and his production isn't close to most of the other highly rated DTs. Short has had at least 6 sacks in each of his final three years. In his NFL.com profile that I just read about 20 minutes ago, it says what I said, which is that he gets stood up and can't get off of blocks once he is engaged.

As far as being picked up the Raiders, it is TOTAL nonsense. Houston is already very similar player. Bryant is actually much better at what Floyd does which is penetration. Bryant has proven he can get off of blocks of NFL caliber OGs. If we were to add a DT, it needs to be one with size who can anchor and eat blockers, not another penetrator.
Go get em Black Bolt. But don't get you hopes up. Ive tried to say the same thing. Floyd is a trendy pick for Raiders right now.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular View Post
Go get em Black Bolt. But don't get you hopes up. Ive tried to say the same thing. Floyd is a trendy pick for Raiders right now.
Yeah, I tend to agree. Floyd to the Raiders is not unlike the "Tavon Austin to Seattle" nonsense. We already have 2 slot receivers competing for playing time (Tate/Baldwin). People mock Austin to the Seahawks because they just blindly assume that we want a WR 'playmaker' and slot him in accordingly. It's like they don't have any idea who is actually on the roster.

A guy like DeAndre Hopkins/Wheaton or Harper makes much better sense, because those are guys that can play on the outside -- allowing Tate and Baldwin to work the slot. And beyond that, Pete would probably much rather have a better TE option to go in more 21 sets.

Floyd isn't the kind of DT the Raiders need. Seems like superficial need awareness on the part of that forecast.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:33 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
LOL, where was all this support for Floyd a month and a half ago when his name wasn't even mentioned as a first rounder?? Now because some talking heads tell us a GM really likes him, he is a top five player?? Please....

Even if he turns out to be a decent player, there is nothing on film that suggests he is going to be a superstar player. There is simply nothing to justify him as a top five pick. If the Raider pick him, then any delusions we had about being able to stop the run would have flew straight out the window. Once again, we have a 27 year old Desmond Bryant in his prime and he gets off of blocks. Floyd is simply a bad pairing with him as we need a NT type DT. We also showed some 3-4 looks, so a two gap NT is paramount.
Never know. Having Floyd and Bryant flanking a big NT could be something to behold.

Of course, that would move Houston from novice OLB to full timer. I joke about it, but I'm not entirely comfortable with making that move permanent.

Then again, if he keeps performing well at it, and we find a speed rusher to line up opposite him, we just might be onto something.
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Derek Carr...

God damn it.

No offense, but your Raiders draft sucks.
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