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Old 02-13-2013, 09:31 PM    (permalink
Brodeur
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volume shooter. volume shooter. volume shooter.


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This will be interesting because I know you and I like us some Jose Calderon.....who is better, Calderon or Cool?
I prefer Calderon on the whole.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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I prefer Calderon on the whole.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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Chris Paul is so good, i got insulted when they tried to say Lebron was the best passer in the league.

EDIT: Ryan Hollins just visibly kicked Jeremy Lin as Lin was falling to the floor... what in the world was he thinking?

Last edited by soybean : 02-13-2013 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Calderon is not better than Cool. Worse on defense, stagnates offense half the time, is just an all around meh player other than his shooting ability.

Calderon is the perfect example of a guy who looks good in the box score but doesn't really help your team guy.

Now, if you are including their contracts in the equation...
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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The Raptors won the lottery before and ended up with Bargnani. They have had absolutely no success bringing in FA's, and even if they stockpiled picks and young players to make a move on an all-star caliber player, there are none who would sign long term. It's the unfortunate reality for the Raptors. Colangelo's only other option would be to try and trade away whatever he could in order to throw next season for Wiggins, but that could very well have cost him his job. This trade may end up costing him his job down the road if they cannot become a playoff team next season, but the Raptors are definitely better right now with *** then they were at the beginning of the year with Calderon and Davis.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Pretty good game by the Knicks tonight #Knickswag #Raptorsin2013
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:40 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by pierce2walker View Post
Nobody said Rudy Cool wouldn't make the Raptors better (well maybe Brody I dunno). When you don't consider his contract he's definitely a talented guy (although inefficient). The problem is that he makes them an average to above average team at best with little room for growth due to their contract situation. You can say that big name FAs were never going to Toronto, but cap flexibility gives a great deal of roster flexibility outside of simply signing FAs
If we can somehow get a team to take on the contracts of Fields, and Kleiza(or ampty him) then we can acquire depth.

1: Kyle Lowery, ???
2: DeMar DeRozan, Terrence Ross(6th man)
3: Rudy ***, Alan Anderson
4: Andre Bargnani, Amir Johnson, Quincy Acy
5: Jonas Valanciunas, ???

We could keep Kleiza and move him to the four, where he is much suited to play. This will allow us to move Amir to the 5. I would rather avoid that.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:59 AM    (permalink
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The Raptors won the lottery before and ended up with Bargnani. They have had absolutely no success bringing in FA's, and even if they stockpiled picks and young players to make a move on an all-star caliber player, there are none who would sign long term. It's the unfortunate reality for the Raptors. Colangelo's only other option would be to try and trade away whatever he could in order to throw next season for Wiggins, but that could very well have cost him his job. This trade may end up costing him his job down the road if they cannot become a playoff team next season, but the Raptors are definitely better right now with *** then they were at the beginning of the year with Calderon and Davis.
So because you have no confidence in the front office's scouting ability, you'd rather go all in on a horrifically overpaid player who is the definition of meh? How about, ya know, fire the gm if he sucks so hard that you have no faith he will do better than Rudy cool with a couple/several high first rounders.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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So the 76ers was going to offer a package of Turner and Hawes for Smoove. Could you just imagine a lineup of

Jrue
Iggy
Harkless
Smoove
Vucevic

To build around? We may not make any threes at all, but we would be explosive.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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Oh great. Overreaction to one bad game. Cool.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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So because you have no confidence in the front office's scouting ability, you'd rather go all in on a horrifically overpaid player who is the definition of meh? How about, ya know, fire the gm if he sucks so hard that you have no faith he will do better than Rudy cool with a couple/several high first rounders.
I never said I would rather them go this route. I've stated before I prefer them attempt to get in position to draft Wiggins next season. Colangelo is making the decisions last time I checked. He made the trade for Rudy firstly to make the team better for right now (which they are) and secondly to try and keep his job. The entire city of Toronto is so desperate for a winning team that the GM's of all three professional sports teams are going to do whatever it takes to try put a winner on the field/court/ice. It cost Brian Burke his job, you obviously see how aggressive Anthopoulos has been this off season, and now Colangelo makes the only move he could to try and improve his team immediately.

On top of all of this, how many teams currently have a chance of making it to the finals without a "max" player on their roster. There are three routes to obtaining such a player; draft, FA or trade. No one worthy of max money will sign there, the lottery is luck of the draw, to trade for someone of this caliber under contract is nearly impossible, while the sign and trade route again won't work unless someone is willing to play long term in T.O. I agree Rudy is overpaid, as are most of the players on their roster, but that's the way Toronto is forced to operate.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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Oh great. Overreaction to one bad game. Cool.
I've been saying all along that there's no scorer on the Knicks outside of Melo and Chucker Murder Mcgee. I love the ball movement, but it usually results in a 3 (live by the 3, die by the 3) which is fine and well, or Melo doing Melo things.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I've been saying all along that there's no scorer on the Knicks outside of Melo and Chucker Murder Mcgee. I love the ball movement, but it usually results in a 3 (live by the 3, die by the 3) which is fine and well, or Melo doing Melo things.
Yeah it's a big problem. One of my biggest pet peeves is why aren't we doing pick and roll all night long whenever Melo goes to the bench and Stat is out there? I don't get it. That would open up the offense a lot when Melo goes to the bench and offer some more scoring outside of him, but we don't do it.

I was hoping for Stat to bring some bench scoring when he came back, and he has, but we're not feeding him as much as I would like. It's still a guard dominated offense. It's gonna be a problem in the playoffs. Woodson needs to adjust during this week break.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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Yeah it's a big problem. One of my biggest pet peeves is why aren't we doing pick and roll all night long whenever Melo goes to the bench and Stat is out there? I don't get it. That would open up the offense a lot when Melo goes to the bench and offer some more scoring outside of him, but we don't do it.

I was hoping for Stat to bring some bench scoring when he came back, and he has, but we're not feeding him as much as I would like. It's still a guard dominated offense. It's gonna be a problem in the playoffs. Woodson needs to adjust during this week break.
Woodson doesn't adjust on offense. That's what makes him an average coach at best.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Woodson doesn't adjust on offense. That's what makes him an average coach at best.
Thibs, whom I love, doesn't either. Woodson isn't a bad coach bc of this, he's been very successful with us so far. Let's give him a full year as coach before we throw him under the bus. He's been doing very well for us.

And I know he gets killed for those Atlanta teams but my question is why? Look at the talent he had on those teams. Does anyone honestly expect him to do more with those rosters than he did? He took that talent as far as he could take it. They weren't that good, he wasn't going to take that team to the ECF. That's just unfair to expect from the guy.

I think he gets killed on here way too much. He's a good coach.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Thibs, whom I love, doesn't either. Woodson isn't a bad coach bc of this, he's been very successful with us so far. Let's give him a full year as coach before we throw him under the bus. He's been doing very well for us.

And I know he gets killed for those Atlanta teams but my question is why? Look at the talent he had on those teams. Does anyone honestly expect him to do more with those rosters than he did? He took that talent as far as he could take it. They weren't that good, he wasn't going to take that team to the ECF. That's just unfair to expect from the guy.

I think he gets killed on here way too much. He's a good coach.
I disagree. He had a very talented team when they were all in tact. Joe Johnson, Al Horford, and Josh Smith is a very talented trio. The fact he was able to so little with so much speaks to why I don't think he's a very good coach.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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I disagree. He had a very talented team when they were all in tact. Joe Johnson, Al Horford, and Josh Smith is a very talented trio. The fact he was able to so little with so much speaks to why I don't think he's a very good coach.
Josh Smith and Horford weren't fully developed when he had them. And what did you expect him to do with that trio? Bc last time I checked, the guy who replaced him didn't exactly light the world on fire with that team either.

That roster was not very good, I'm sorry. Wtf has Horford done? Josh Smith is about to be the worst max contract player in the league. Joe Johnson isn't lighting the world on fire either.

That team wasn't good. They were solid. And what do solid teams do? They make the playoffs, then get outed. And that's what he did with them. Did you ever honestly think that roster was ever good enough to compete with the Heat, Bulls of the world?
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Jose Calderon is not better than Rudy ***.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Josh Smith and Horford weren't fully developed when he had them. And what did you expect him to do with that trio? Bc last time I checked, the guy who replaced him didn't exactly light the world on fire with that team either.

That roster was not very good, I'm sorry. Wtf has Horford done? Josh Smith is about to be the worst max contract player in the league. Joe Johnson isn't lighting the world on fire either.

That team wasn't good. They were solid. And what do solid teams do? They make the playoffs, then get outed. And that's what he did with them. Did you ever honestly think that roster was ever good enough to compete with the Heat, Bulls of the world?
He had Joe Johnson in his prime. Josh Smith only really developed AFTER Woodson left (there's a reason for that). And Horford was pretty much the same player he is now as he was when he was with Woodson. The team hasn't succeeded since he left because they got rid of a bunch of pieces that Woodson had.

I'm sorry, you can talk Woodson up all you want. He's not a good coach. He's not the worst coach, but I certainly wouldn't call him good by any stretch of the imagination. You can't be inept like he is one side of the good to be called good. Thibs isn't inept offensively like Woodson is.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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He had Joe Johnson in his prime. Josh Smith only really developed AFTER Woodson left (there's a reason for that). And Horford was pretty much the same player he is now as he was when he was with Woodson. The team hasn't succeeded since he left because they got rid of a bunch of pieces that Woodson had.

I'm sorry, you can talk Woodson up all you want. He's not a good coach. He's not the worst coach, but I certainly wouldn't call him good by any stretch of the imagination. You can't be inept like he is one side of the good to be called good. Thibs isn't inept offensively like Woodson is.
This is a results oriented business. Hell, thats how the world operates. So if he was such a bad coach, why were the results no different when he left? Did they advance any further in the playoffs? Have they become a legitimate threat since he left? What pieces did he lose? Scrubs off the bench? Who gives a ****. The bench changes every year, you expect that.

The answer is a resounding no. Now let's look at the Knicks. Have we improved since he became our coach? The answer is a resounding yes. You may disagree with his methods, and that's fine, I won't argue with you over that, but to say he's a bad coach is just not accurate. His team in Atlanta has not improved since he left, and he's been very successful in NY since he became HC. He's the fastest Knick coach to 50 wins in team history. Faster than Van Gundy. That's pretty ******* good.

And I don't get how you can talk up Horford, Smith and Johnson as this fantastic trio. They're not that good. Smith hasn't really developed all that much honestly. And you expected him to develop a little anyway, the kid was 18 when Woodson got him. Age and maturity play a big role in development.

If you don't like him as a coach, I won't argue over that. That's preference, and that's fine. But let's not completely discredit him as a coach just bc you don't like his style. He's been a very good coach for us. I don't see how you can argue with the results.

And if you dislike our old lineup as much as you state, wouldn't you be even more impressed with the fact that he has us as the 2 seed in the East with such a lineup?

You can't have it both ways.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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not as funny as the rest


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Old 02-14-2013, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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Meh, that was okay. The only things that gave me a grin was Earl Clark's status and the tab for his 2010 highlights.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Thibs, whom I love, doesn't either. Woodson isn't a bad coach bc of this, he's been very successful with us so far. Let's give him a full year as coach before we throw him under the bus. He's been doing very well for us.
Thibs does adjust a lot based on personnel. This year he has Noah up top a lot orchestrating the offense and working on getting Boozer easy baskets. He also moves Deng around in different ways and has used Jimmy Butler and Rip Hamilton in different ways. The Bulls have NO three point shooting and still some how their spacing is SUPER terrible. It's bad but just because of the talent on the floor.

The offense with DRose and the offense without him has been very, very different.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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This is a results oriented business. Hell, thats how the world operates. So if he was such a bad coach, why were the results no different when he left? Did they advance any further in the playoffs? Have they become a legitimate threat since he left? What pieces did he lose? Scrubs off the bench? Who gives a ****. The bench changes every year, you expect that.

The answer is a resounding no. Now let's look at the Knicks. Have we improved since he became our coach? The answer is a resounding yes. You may disagree with his methods, and that's fine, I won't argue with you over that, but to say he's a bad coach is just not accurate. His team in Atlanta has not improved since he left, and he's been very successful in NY since he became HC. He's the fastest Knick coach to 50 wins in team history. Faster than Van Gundy. That's pretty ******* good.

And I don't get how you can talk up Horford, Smith and Johnson as this fantastic trio. They're not that good. Smith hasn't really developed all that much honestly. And you expected him to develop a little anyway, the kid was 18 when Woodson got him. Age and maturity play a big role in development.

If you don't like him as a coach, I won't argue over that. That's preference, and that's fine. But let's not completely discredit him as a coach just bc you don't like his style. He's been a very good coach for us. I don't see how you can argue with the results.

And if you dislike our old lineup as much as you state, wouldn't you be even more impressed with the fact that he has us as the 2 seed in the East with such a lineup?

You can't have it both ways.
I mean, that's an extremely simplistic way to look at it. I could also paint everything as black and white, but that would be silly because we live in a world of mediums. That's what I hate in sports. Everyone just cares about the end result but that's not how life is. Stories are written like that, nor is life. Although not popular, looking beyond the surface details is critical to understanding who is truly good, and who isn't.

We have plenty of talent on the team. It just happens to be old. I never have once said the Knicks suck. I just think they're old and won't get the job done in the playoffs. That's the main reason he's done so well with us is the increase in talent.

That and a terrible Eastern Conference. Wins don't impress me at all in such a horrid conference. The fact that we're beating the Indiana Pacers for second place in the Eastern Conference does not impress me at all.

You can believe what you want. I didn't say he was a terrible coach, but I certainly don't think he's "been great for us" as you've said. This is probably the most talent we've had for a very very long time. It might be old talent but it's still talent so him doing what he's supposed to does not impress me.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Eh, it's a results oriented world man. Nobody is gonna care why you couldn't do something or why you didn't meet expectations or get the results expected of you or your group. Bosses want results and they don't care how you get them. Or why you couldn't get them.

That's life. Not just sports. Our jobs are no different. If I don't get my boss results he doesn't care why. It's black and white. We live in a black and white world. The gray is just excuses and your bosses won't care for them.

When I see Woodson, I see a coach who instantly improved our team the second he became coach. A coach who with the same team that D'Antoni had last year, had a 10 billion times better record with. A coach who in his first season as full time HC, has brought in pieces to fit his style of play, and has gotten us the 2 seed through half the season when everyone and their mom was laughing at the Knicks in the offseason.

I see results. Results are hard to argue with. It's one thing if he was stinking up the joint, but the man has been very successful the second he became coach.

At the very least he's infinitely better than D'Antoni as a coach and considering our options at the time, I don't see who was available to us in the offseason outside of Phil Jackson who would be an improvement over Woodson.

And that's the bottom line. Who else was out there who could do a better job? Nobody. You gotta give the man credit, he's done a good job. The team responds to him. We win under him. He's a good coach.
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