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Old 02-17-2013, 02:15 PM    (permalink
Menardo75
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
I'm just sharing my feelings on what I took from the report as a reader. Everyone is still allowed to voice their opinion on matters here correct?
I guess I just feel bad for you then cause your feelings are always negative.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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I guess I just feel bad for you then cause your feelings are always negative.
Believe what you want.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
dan77733
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I don't know why i'm about to debate Dan because it's like debating dry wall but i'm going to try anyway. Dan you really are already calling Jenkins a bust? You really don't expect anything from him next year? I know this is one of your typical knee jerk reactions and since he had one pass go his way that was dropped the sky is falling and he should be out of the league. Jenkins wasn't drafted for an instant impact. If San Fran wanted a guy to contribute as a rookie they would have gone elsewhere. I can't say that I am surprised by this reaction but it still makes me laugh.

As far as free agents Manningham is going into a contract year and he's not making that much money so unless he isn't healthy there is no reason to cut him. You are also REALLY underrating Goodwins value. Goodwin is the glue for that offensive line. Guys like Looney and Kilgore might be physically better players right now, but his football IQ and his leadership complete that group which is VERY important. He isn't going to be as easy to replace as you think because guys with that combination are HARD to find. He only has one year left on his deal and unless one of those young guys is ready to fill that role let him play it out.

Cutting Haralson also is not a good idea until a replacement IS found. He's proven and very stout against the run and a solid pass rusher his depth was greatly missed this year. That's not to say that Fleming couldn't take his job or someone that is brought it in but for the time being he should stay. He is also going into the final year of his contract.
I never called Jenkins a bust or said that he's a bust. He's extremely RAW and quite simply, doesnt have the experience, knowledge and work ethic yet to where I see him making an impact in 2013. Even after Williams and Manningham went down, Jenkins didnt do anything. People say he only had one pass thrown to him but why do you think that is? It's because he's basically out there as a decoy and to have one less defender around the guy that WILL get the ball. He was drafted for the future, long term, not now. I wasnt happy with the selection but after seeing highlights of him, I think he has skill and talent but how he approaches everything else will determine how he develops. Right now, I dont see him higher than our 4th receiver and honestly, im sorry but right now, thats a waste of a first round draft pick. Again, im not saying that he's a bust or will be a bust but as of right now, he's looking more like Rashuan Woods than he is Michael Crabtree and considering the fact that we have a very talented roster thats obviously Super Bowl caliber, I want to see the best starters on the field, not decoys, not injury prone players or washed up veterans who should just retire already. For 2013, I just dont see Jenkins helping us at WR. Maybe, in 2014 or 2015 but not now and to me, Crabtree needs that other receiver. Its not Manningham, Moss, Williams or Jenkins. Sorry but its not. Its already been proven that they arent the answer for 2013.

Manningham is making $4m or so for 2013 and yes, he'll be an UFA in 2014 which are two reasons why I would release him. His injury of a torn ACL and PCL changed my opinion of wanting to extend him to start opposite Crabtree to now going back to who I wanted a year ago which is Wallace. Its not that I dont like Manningham, I actually do but not at $4m coming off two torn ligaments and is expected to start the season on the PUP list. Sorry but to me spending $4m on manningham doesnt make any sense whatsoever. Plus, once he even comes back, he'll be rusty and have to get back into football shape. Chances are more likely that he'll look bad coming off the injury and the team let him leave next March anyway so why keep him now for no apparent reason? To me, its all about who's going to be more productive and of course, you take age, salary, etc. into consideration as well but im looking at production and in that regard, Wallace surpasses both Moss and Manningham combined. It's not me making it up either. Its what it is.

Everyone seems to think that Brown is better than Wallace. Huh, he's not. Wallace was already proven BEFORE Brown even became a factor. If anything, its Wallace and his deep threat ability that opened up everything for Brown, Sanders, etc. I guarantee that Brown's production will decline if Wallace leaves PIT because there's no one else there to take the top off the defense which allows those other guys to put up good stats.

Thats why I want Wallace. You look at Crabtree and Davis. Davis is an elite TE and matchup nightmare, Crabtree has FINALLY emerged as a number one receiver despite it taking three and a half years and a QB switch to do so but combine them with Wallace and forget about it. Offensively, we have the ability to surpass Packers, Saints, Patriots, etc. because unlike before, we finally have a starting QB who can actually take advantage of a guy like Wallace and use his speed to not only make big plays downfield but to open up everything underneath. Also, most people are used to the run setting up the pass, personally, I want to see the opposite. Harbaugh switched to Kaepernick for a reason - his arm allows him to open up the passing game which is needed in a passing league. Opening up the passing game and being more aggressive will not help the running game more but it will also open up screens and stuff of that nature while at the same time keeping Gore as fresh as possible down the stretch.

My entire point is that if you had to choose between paying $6.5m (or more) for another year of Moss and Manningham or $10-12m for Wallace, who would you rather pay? I would easily rather pay Wallace and not because im a fan of his but because production wise, upside, age, health status, he's easily the better option. And again, its mainly because of the torn ACL and PCL that Manningham suffered. Seriously, if never got injured, not only do I think we win the Super Bowl with him as a starter opposite Crabtree, I would actually be pushing for him to be extended but that injury changed my entire thought process because I just dont see the point in keeping him for $4m just to miss 1/3 of the season, be rusty and out of football shape when he does play and then let him walk in a year from now anyway. Besides, releasing Manningham frees up that money and no team is going to sign him so come pre-season, could always bring him back at a minimum prove yourslef one year deal. To me, its a no brainer.

Goodwin isnt bad but he's the weak link of the OL. He's good and all but at his salary, age and the fact that he'll be allowed to leave in a year makes him expendable. Granted, replacing him with Kilgore or a rookie is a risk but one I would be willing to take. Every decision is about risk. You either have the balls to take that risk or you dont. Me personally, I would. Its not just because of his age, salary but also because I want a young center to matchup with Kaepernick because both would be together long term and once they get the chemistry together, they'll be set for the long term. Also, there were games (mainly NE) that Kaepernick and Goodwin werent on the same page. You use Kilgore or a rookie and that center along with Kaepernick wont have those problems once the chemistry is there. I also look at having at least 11 draft picks. Whats the point in having all these draft picks if at least half of them wont make the final 53 because the team is hanging onto veterans longer than they should be? Unless they're trading up or whatever, these picks could just be turn into wasted picks on players who didnt make the roster.

As far as Harlason goes, pass rushing OLB's are supposed to be deep this year. Granted, could wait until after the Draft before releasing him but I would make sure that I get his replacement so I wouldnt be concerned. Even if I have to trade up some spots, so be it. He's not that expensive at $2.57m but a rookie would be cheaper for the next four years and my thinking is just to get a player to fill the role that Aldon had last year. Rush the passer while giving Aldon/Brooks a rest.

I do however think that except for Alex Smith, EVERYONE will return for 2013. I dont see Baalke/Harbaugh releasing any of those guys. I think they will try to win the Super Bowl with the majority of the team that they have now. Of course, it didnt work a few weeks ago but whatever, obviously, none of it is up to any of us. Just have to wait and see what they do.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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FA's after the 2014 season

-Colin Kaepernick
-Aldon Smith
-Michael Crabtree
-Mike Iupati
-Anthony Davis
-Kendall Hunter
-Frank Gore

Not to mention Justin Smith is a UFA after next year, plus other guys like Culliver (bad SB but still a good player), Miller, etc. Goldson is a UFA this year itself.

Can't afford these big name guys, it just isn't going to happen, no amount of arguing will change this.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
dan77733
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Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87 View Post
FA's after the 2014 season

-Colin Kaepernick
-Aldon Smith
-Michael Crabtree
-Mike Iupati
-Anthony Davis
-Kendall Hunter
-Frank Gore

Not to mention Justin Smith is a UFA after next year, plus other guys like Culliver (bad SB but still a good player), Miller, etc. Goldson is a UFA this year itself.

Can't afford these big name guys, it just isn't going to happen, no amount of arguing will change this.
I disagree. I think that we CAN afford to keep all of these players. Its all about knowing when to let the old guys leave instead of paying them to stcik around over the younger guys. If the team were to release those players I have talked about and forget about Wallace (which I dont see happening anyway), they would have plenty of money to extend some of those guys now or next off-season.

Justin Smith is the wildcard. Personally, im hoping that the team drafts a 3-4 RDE at 31 with a high motor who'll fit in as Smith's replacement because unless Smith plays in 2013 like he did in 2011, I would let him leave next off-season because I wouldnt pay him what he would most likely want at his age. Defense needs to stop depending on Smith to be good. They need to be just as good without him as they are with him.

UFA's this off-season -

RB Brandon Jacobs
WR Randy Moss
WR Ted Ginn
TE Delanie Walker
OG Leonard Davis
NT Isaac Sopoaga
NT Ricky Jean Francois
OLB Clark Haggans
ILB Larry Grant
ILB Tavares Gooden
FS Dashon Goldson

Goldson must be re-signed to a long term contract. At worst, a one year franchise tag tender at $7.5m. Walker should also be re-signed. Jean Francois would be third on my list. Grant and Gooden would depend on their demands. The rest should be gone.

After 2013 -

QB Scott Tolzien
FB Anthony Dixon
WR Kyle Williams
WR Mario Manningham*
C Jonathan Goodwin*
NT Ian Williams
DE Will Tukuafu*
DE Demarcus Dobbs*
DE Justin Smith
OLB Parys Harlason*
ILB Michael Wilhoite
CB Tarell Brown
CB Perrish Cox
SS Donte Whitner
K David Akers*

15 UFA's. Looks worse than what it actually is. The UFA's that I have marked with an asterik would be released this month or after the Draft. Either way, they would be gone. Wilhoite depends on 2013 draft picks, how he plays and what happens with Grant and Gooden this off-season. Tolzien and Dixon shouldnt be expensive to keep. Williams is coming off a torn ACL and could probably be extended now at a cheap price. Correct me if im wrong but has Ian Williams even played in two seasons? I dont remember seeing him out there. Either way, he should also be cheap to keep. Would definitely re-sign Cox as he's played better than expected. Whitner would try to extend this off-season if we sign Goldson to a long term deal. I like this safety combination and would keep them together. Already talked about Justin Smith. Brown is the wildcard. Depends on how he plays in 2013 and who we acquire in this year's draft and how that player plays in 2013.

As for 2014, I think Aldon Smith has an option for a fifth year. Not 100% sure though. I read it somewhere but cant remember where. The rest including Culliver and Miller wouldnt be impossible to keep. As for Gore, I would probably let him leave as he would be 33 entering the 2014 season. Hopefully, we'll get a power back next year to replace him but at the same time, I still think that Harbaugh is slowly moving the offense from a power running scheme to an up tempo fast paced scheme but thats just me.

Either way, its NOT impossible to keep the main young core intact. All depends on how long the team wants to hold on to the old veterans that I mentioned earlier. That will determine who we extend this off-season.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
Big-time upside. Can't block though.
Or catch half the time, still has loads of potential though.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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As I predicted everything went over Dan's head the knee jerk reactions were too great for me to overcome.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:53 AM    (permalink
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FA wish list

(This presupposes that the player would be signed for a good value, I don't want to overpay anyone)

1. Dwayne Bowe
2. Mike Wallace
3. Sean Smith
4. Aqib Talib
5. Paul Gruger
6. DRC
7. Leodis McKlevin
8. Mike Nugent
9. Michael Johnson*
10. Corey Williams*
11. Alan Branch*
12. Thomas Howard*
13. Manny Lawson*
14. James Casey
15. Josh Johnson

* Extreme long shots that could only be signed for depth if the market really dried up for them.
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya:The lack of ignorance in this thread is alarming.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shupp View Post
FA wish list

(This presupposes that the player would be signed for a good value, I don't want to overpay anyone)

1. Dwayne Bowe
2. Mike Wallace
3. Sean Smith
4. Aqib Talib
5. Paul Gruger
6. DRC
7. Leodis McKlevin
8. Mike Nugent
9. Michael Johnson*
10. Corey Williams*
11. Alan Branch*
12. Thomas Howard*
13. Manny Lawson*
14. James Casey
15. Josh Johnson

* Extreme long shots that could only be signed for depth if the market really dried up for them.
Excluding Wallace, the only player I would sign would be QB Josh Johnson. Need a veteran to backup Kaepernick and unlike others who may be available, he would be the cheapest option.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:36 AM    (permalink
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Excluding Wallace, the only player I would sign would be QB Josh Johnson. Need a veteran to backup Kaepernick and unlike others who may be available, he would be the cheapest option.
You don't want to sign every single one of them? Dan that's not like you.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Actually Dan does make some good points. Goodwin is good, but we've been grooming his repalcement for 2 years now. And at some point, your going to have to sacrifice a good player or two to sign a better one down the road. At 5 million on the books, he would be the second highest paid O-Lineman this year after Staley. They may ask him to restructure, if not he could defintely be cut. Just depends if they feel Kilgore is ready. Defintely wouldn't shock me if he was cut though.

MM, even at 4 million, is still relatively cheap for a player with his experience and skill-set. I don't think they'll have a problem eating that 4 million and keeping him around. He'll probably start the season on that IR list they had Jewel Hampton on, where you get the opportunity to come back during the middle of the year. That makes a lot of sense and we will have the opportunity to either cut him or add him to the 53 once he comes off that list. They'll add another cheap vet via free agency. K-10 should be fully recovered by time off-seasons workouts start. Last report I saw, he said his rehab was ahead of schedule. So he'll probably be slated as the starter opposite Crabs all off-season. You got Jenkins, who should improve on his rookie campaign. And for you Lockette fans, he's with CK in Atlanta working out and catching passes with Chad Hall so he could be a wildcard. So with a vet in FA, Hall, Lockette, Crabs, and K-10 already on the roster, and a slew of draft picks and UDFAs who will be added, we'll have enough bodies and talent to allow MM to fully recover and help us next year as we make that playoff push. We may not be particularly deep at the position at the moment, but that will change over the course of the next few months.

The beauty in have a pretty talented team depth wise is that when free agency comes, you have options because of your depth. And Baalke seems to have a keen eye on his players and knwoing when guys are ready to step up. I remember saying he and Jimbaugh were not too bright last year, trying to make a 6'8 OT play inside at OG. Oh how wrong I was. I think I've learned to just sit back and let Baalke do his thing and enjoy the process. Its nice to speculate and have some fun guessing but if any vet such as Goodwin or Rogers is cut, I don't think ppl should panic at all. I think Baalke has proven he has a gauge for these things and has earned the benefit of the doubt. If a move like that is made, they have the utmost faith in the next guy their asking to step up into the starter's role.

Last edited by VAfy-ya : 02-18-2013 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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I go back and forth with a guy like Goodwin. On one hand, he's old and relatively expensive, and we have a younger, cheaper, more long-term option in Kilgore. Plus, whats the saying- its better to let guys leave 1 year early than 1 year late. David Akers had a career year and tanked. Carlos Rogers had a career year and regressed. As he gets older the likelyhood of him regressing is higher.

OTOH, he is the C and thats a position thats better with experience- line calls and such. Especially more important with a young QB.

I guess i'm fine either way, he's only signed on for 1 more year, but i do have a feeling Goodwin will regress and we would be better off with his replacement sooner rather than later.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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I go back and forth with a guy like Goodwin. On one hand, he's old and relatively expensive, and we have a younger, cheaper, more long-term option in Kilgore. Plus, whats the saying- its better to let guys leave 1 year early than 1 year late. David Akers had a career year and tanked. Carlos Rogers had a career year and regressed. As he gets older the likelyhood of him regressing is higher.

OTOH, he is the C and thats a position thats better with experience- line calls and such. Especially more important with a young QB.

I guess i'm fine either way, he's only signed on for 1 more year, but i do have a feeling Goodwin will regress and we would be better off with his replacement sooner rather than later.
That is a excellent point too. A young QB like CK could really lean on a vet like Goodwin this year. I don't think he'll regress either. You look at a guy like Matt Birk, who is up there in age and still plays at a high level. Goodwin is a good player. He would fetch a good amount on the open market, where good O-Line talent comes at a premium. I just feel its more of a money issue. O-Line is kind of like the QB position. If you have talent and are prepared mentally, you really dont get better by watching. You have to get out on the field, in live game action to really mature and develop. If Baalke believes in Kilgore and really believe he is the future, much like Jimbaugh did with CK, we would be better off to make him a starter a little early and reap the benefits as we head late into the season and hopefully another playoff run.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Before I reply to the above posts, here's something that I just read at PFT.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ng-for-niners/

None of that cap room that I have mentioned will be available to use unless those players gets released and our scheduled UFA's dont get taken off the books until March 12th. Bottom line is that as of right now, we have no cap room to at the very least franchise tag Goldson.

Baalke/Harbaugh MUST release Smith as soon as possible and franchise Goldson if they cant reach a long term deal with him. Trying to hold on to Smith just to try and trade him for a mid to late round draft pick isnt worth possibly losing Goldson. I think that if Goldson hits FA, he's as good as gone. Baalke/Harbaugh need to cut the fat and keep the younger and more important players and Goldson is one of these players in my opinion.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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You don't want to sign every single one of them? Dan that's not like you.
I havent wanted "every FA" for at least the last two years or so. Last year is basically the same as this year - Wallace and thats it. I never wanted Moss as everyone here im sure remembers. Manningham was 50/50 at the time and I was actually hoping the team would extend him this off-season but that changed once he got injured. This year, its the same as last year. Wallace and thats it. Johnson would be second because he's a veteran QB to backup Kaepernick, cheap and isnt a threat to where there could be any type of QB controversy. Two UFA's, rest in the draft and the fat from the roster cut and done.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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And just to touch on Carlos Rogers a little, for my money, he' still our best CB on the outside. I do however think he's lost a step covering the slot. He's not as quick and agile as he used to be. And that was one of the main reasons he was valuable to us...he's ability over the slot. This will be a big off-season for Perrish Cox. He'll be a free agent after 2013 and if he improves enough this off-season and takes Rogers job as the primary over the slot, he could make Rogers expendable. Cox has the quicks the keep up with the smaller, shifty WRs in the slot. And he's going into his second year in the scheme, which means he should be able to hit the ground running during OTAs and hopefully turn some heads.

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Old 02-18-2013, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Actually Dan does make some good points. Goodwin is good, but we've been grooming his repalcement for 2 years now. And at some point, your going to have to sacrifice a good player or two to sign a better one down the road. At 5 million on the books, he would be the second highest paid O-Lineman this year after Staley. They may ask him to restructure, if not he could defintely be cut. Just depends if they feel Kilgore is ready. Defintely wouldn't shock me if he was cut though.
Thanks for the compliment as its very rare. LOL. :)

I understand what Goodwin brings to the offensive line and whatnot but you have to know when to let the old guys move on and replace them instead of holding onto them longer than you should have. I can definitely see asking him to take a paycut and if not, being released. Team has to make decisions - keep the old guys on the roster or use that money on younger players like Goldson. To me, it would be a lot harder to replace Goldson (for example) than it would be to replace Goodwin. After penalties, we would save $3.70m if we release Goodwin. Six of the eight players I would release are all going into their contract year and since the team would most likely let them leave in a year from now anyway, mine as well do it now especially when re-signing or extending other players are more important.

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MM, even at 4 million, is still relatively cheap for a player with his experience and skill-set. I don't think they'll have a problem eating that 4 million and keeping him around. He'll probably start the season on that IR list they had Jewel Hampton on, where you get the opportunity to come back during the middle of the year. That makes a lot of sense and we will have the opportunity to either cut him or add him to the 53 once he comes off that list. They'll add another cheap vet via free agency. K-10 should be fully recovered by time off-seasons workouts start. Last report I saw, he said his rehab was ahead of schedule. So he'll probably be slated as the starter opposite Crabs all off-season. You got Jenkins, who should improve on his rookie campaign. And for you Lockette fans, he's with CK in Atlanta working out and catching passes with Chad Hall so he could be a wildcard. So with a vet in FA, Hall, Lockette, Crabs, and K-10 already on the roster, and a slew of draft picks and UDFAs who will be added, we'll have enough bodies and talent to allow MM to fully recover and help us next year as we make that playoff push. We may not be particularly deep at the position at the moment, but that will change over the course of the next few months.
This I 100% disagree with. Manningham is going to start the season on the PUP list so why on earth would you pay him almost $4m to play 2/3 of the season and quite honestly, he could be so rusty and out of shape when he returns that he wouldnt hurt more than help. I say release him NOW, save the $3.95m in cap room and wait to see what happens come mid season. No team is going to sign him and we could always bring him back on a cheaper one year prove it deal. To me, Manningham is a waste of almost $4m that could be used to re-signing an UFA, extending a player like Whitner or just save for next off-season. Personally, he would have already been gone from the roster. And cant compare Manningham to Hampton. Hampton is earing the minimum or whatever. Huge difference.

As for Kyle Williams, the only reasons why I would release him too is because he suffered his injury earlier, is ahead of schedule, still has a chip on his shoulder from muffing those two punts, is under contract in 2013 for only $630k, can return kicks/punts and play special teams. Also, I think that he's best used as our slot receiver. When you compare the positives and negatives between Manningham and Williams, its a very easy decision, at least for me anyway.

As for those other receivers, excluding Crabtree, im NOT expecting anything from Jenkins, Lockette and Hall. Not to say that they wont contribute but im not expecting them to and if they do, it would be minimal. Going into 2013 with Crabtree, Manningham (on PUP), Williams (coming off an ACL tear), a second year rookie and two nobodies exactly something to be excited about. At least, im not excited. Jenkins can improve but all he has to do is catch ONE pass in 2013 and he would have already improved over 2012. Come on.

Yeah, I want Wallace but even if we dont go after him, at the very least, use the money saved from releases and our own UFA's that we'll let leave on other players that should be extended. In other words, use the money that would go to those 6-8 players that I would release on others like Whitner, Kyle Williams, Brown, maybe Justin Smith, extend Crabtree and re-sign a few of our own UFA's this year. That would be far better than paying almost $29m on those 8 players that I have mentioned in previous posts.

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The beauty in have a pretty talented team depth wise is that when free agency comes, you have options because of your depth. And Baalke seems to have a keen eye on his players and knwoing when guys are ready to step up. I remember saying he and Jimbaugh were not too bright last year, trying to make a 6'8 OT play inside at OG. Oh how wrong I was. I think I've learned to just sit back and let Baalke do his thing and enjoy the process. Its nice to speculate and have some fun guessing but if any vet such as Goodwin or Rogers is cut, I don't think ppl should panic at all. I think Baalke has proven he has a gauge for these things and has earned the benefit of the doubt. If a move like that is made, they have the utmost faith in the next guy their asking to step up into the starter's role.
Like you, I had doubts about Boone playing RG but then I remembered Kevin Gogan who was 6'6 so I thought that it was 50/50 in regards to how Boone would play at RG but he's been awesome and has made a huge impact on the right side and has helped Davis more than anyone thought that he would. A year ago, I wanted to re-sign Snyder because I didnt think that Boone could make the transition but im happy I was wrong. Only negative is that we need to draft a backup LT and RT in case of injuries. Cant go into 2013 with only 2 OT's.

And im not going into panic mode or anything like that unless I see the team hanging on to these old guys at the expense of letting younger guys like Goldson, Walker and Jean Francois walk. Then, I'll start to panic.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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I go back and forth with a guy like Goodwin. On one hand, he's old and relatively expensive, and we have a younger, cheaper, more long-term option in Kilgore. Plus, whats the saying- its better to let guys leave 1 year early than 1 year late. David Akers had a career year and tanked. Carlos Rogers had a career year and regressed. As he gets older the likelyhood of him regressing is higher.

OTOH, he is the C and thats a position thats better with experience- line calls and such. Especially more important with a young QB.

I guess i'm fine either way, he's only signed on for 1 more year, but i do have a feeling Goodwin will regress and we would be better off with his replacement sooner rather than later.
Exactly. This is why I didnt want the team to re-sign Rogers last year. He was coming off a career year and its not like he was going to match or surpass it. Always better to let guys leave a year early than a year late. Akers and Rogers are two perfect examples. Dont want to see that happen with Goodwin. And sure as hell dont want to see Rogers get worse (which he will) and Akers miss another 20 FG's or whatever the hell it was. Time to move on. If the team thinks that Kilgore is ready, they need to cut the fat that is Goodwin and move on. It worked with Boone and I think that it could work again.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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That is a excellent point too. A young QB like CK could really lean on a vet like Goodwin this year. I don't think he'll regress either. You look at a guy like Matt Birk, who is up there in age and still plays at a high level. Goodwin is a good player. He would fetch a good amount on the open market, where good O-Line talent comes at a premium. I just feel its more of a money issue. O-Line is kind of like the QB position. If you have talent and are prepared mentally, you really dont get better by watching. You have to get out on the field, in live game action to really mature and develop. If Baalke believes in Kilgore and really believe he is the future, much like Jimbaugh did with CK, we would be better off to make him a starter a little early and reap the benefits as we head late into the season and hopefully another playoff run.
I agree with this too but to me, the team is going to move on from goodwin anyway and I personally would move on sooner rather than later. If Smith was still the starting QB, then I honestly would keep Goodwin for 2013 but since its Kaepernick, he's going to eventually get used to another center anyway and I prefer him to get used to that center sooner rather than later because the more comfortable he was to get with Goodwin, the harder wit will be for him to adjust to a new center. Time to make that change is now plus im not worried about Kaepernick losing Goodwin. I think that Kaepernick is going to be the best QB that we've had since Young and you can already see it. Just need to get younger at center and keep the young healthy core around him intact.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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And just to touch on Carlos Rogers a little, for my money, he' still our best CB on the outside. I do however think he's lost a step covering the slot. He's not as quick and agile as he used to be. And that was one of the main reasons he was valuable to us...he's ability over the slot. This will be a big off-season for Perrish Cox. He'll be a free agent after 2013 and if he improves enough this off-season and takes Rogers job as the primary over the slot, he could make Rogers expendable. Cox has the quicks the keep up with the smaller, shifty WRs in the slot. And he's going into his second year in the scheme, which means he should be able to hit the ground running during OTAs and hopefully turn some heads.
I disagree with this. Rogers is done. He regressed like I said he would compared to 2011. He's old and too much money for average at bets production. Culliver is better than him on the outside because if he wasnt, Rogers wouldnt move into the slot in nickel and dime sets. I also think that Brown is better than Rogers too. Rogers is too much money when you look at things like production. He was great in 2011 but I would have let him walk a year ago. Rogers sucks in the slot worse than the outside. Everytime I see him in the slot, he gets his ass kicked. Rogers is another veteran that team needs to move on from now instead of waiting another year.

As for Cox, I actually like him more than Rogers and would try to extend him this off-season. Younger, cheaper, faster, quicker and overall, eventually better.

Its not like these old guys arent replaceable. They are. Just have to be willing to take that chance sooner rather than later because while everyone wants to keep guys like Rogers, Goodwin, etc., what happens when they decline in 2013 and everyone here next year is saying that we should have let them go a year ago.

To me, these guys dont have enough upside and production to warrant keeping especially when we have players to re-sign/extend who are far more important in my opinion.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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In regards to the Goodwin and Kilgore discussion...

Let us not forget that Joe Looney was drafted last year. Options for the C position are definitely there.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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And just to touch on Carlos Rogers a little, for my money, he' still our best CB on the outside. I do however think he's lost a step covering the slot. He's not as quick and agile as he used to be. And that was one of the main reasons he was valuable to us...he's ability over the slot. This will be a big off-season for Perrish Cox. He'll be a free agent after 2013 and if he improves enough this off-season and takes Rogers job as the primary over the slot, he could make Rogers expendable. Cox has the quicks the keep up with the smaller, shifty WRs in the slot. And he's going into his second year in the scheme, which means he should be able to hit the ground running during OTAs and hopefully turn some heads.
This right here has been why I think we should bring in a nickel corner and seriously take a look at Tyraan Matheiu for that role in the draft.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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This right here has been why I think we should bring in a nickel corner and seriously take a look at Tyraan Matheiu for that role in the draft.
I honestly don't believe Matheiu has viable NFL position. He's not a CB. His hips are too stiff and his change of direction is below average the times I recall seeing him play. Too small to play outside yet, too slow for the slot. Not big enough to play safety, yet I believe FS is probably the position that suits his skill-set best. They most definitely will bring in a CB who has ability in the slot whether it be in the draft or free agency. But I defintely hope they stay away from Mathieu....unless its as a UDFA.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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I disagree with this. Rogers is done. He regressed like I said he would compared to 2011. He's old and too much money for average at bets production. Culliver is better than him on the outside because if he wasnt, Rogers wouldnt move into the slot in nickel and dime sets. I also think that Brown is better than Rogers too. Rogers is too much money when you look at things like production. He was great in 2011 but I would have let him walk a year ago. Rogers sucks in the slot worse than the outside. Everytime I see him in the slot, he gets his ass kicked. Rogers is another veteran that team needs to move on from now instead of waiting another year.

As for Cox, I actually like him more than Rogers and would try to extend him this off-season. Younger, cheaper, faster, quicker and overall, eventually better.

Its not like these old guys arent replaceable. They are. Just have to be willing to take that chance sooner rather than later because while everyone wants to keep guys like Rogers, Goodwin, etc., what happens when they decline in 2013 and everyone here next year is saying that we should have let them go a year ago.
You do realize playing over the slot is the more physically demanding and the toughest job a CB can have right? Its much easy to man the outside routes. You have safety help 50% of the time, as well as having the sideline as a extra defender. And by playing strictly one side of the field, your technique and footwork rarely changes, depending on the type of leverage your using.

Over the slot, your in press coverage pretty much exclusively. Rarely do you receive safety help and you could be on either side of the formation, so your leverage, technique, footwork, all that is constantly changing. And you have to face every route. In the slot, because there is more space, every route is a possibility. And each route can be run to the inside or the outside, so you have to study WRs and anticipate routes and really diagnose formations and personnel. And do all of that, while trying to keel up with the DeSean Jackson's and Calvin Johnson's of the world.

There are very few CBs in this league that have the ability to play inside and outside. Who can virtually line-up anywhere on the field. Rogers is one of a few who has that ability and has done it at a high level. What he does isn't easy...that's why we dont just ask anybody to do it. He may have regressed in the slot but he's still better than a lot of CBs whose ONLY job is covering just the slot. If he could just park himself on the outside like Cully and Brown, I doubt you'd see him get worked like both those guys did in the SB and NFCCG respectfully. That's why he's our most important CB. But if you can bring in someone, or coach up Cox to be able to handle the slot themselves, Rogers loses some of his value, and is more inclined to take a pay cut to remain on the team. As a outside CB only, he'd still be better than most. But I don't know if he'd be worth 7 mil a year in that role.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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I honestly don't believe Matheiu has viable NFL position. He's not a CB. His hips are too stiff and his change of direction is below average the times I recall seeing him play. Too small to play outside yet, too slow for the slot. Not big enough to play safety, yet I believe FS is probably the position that suits his skill-set best. They most definitely will bring in a CB who has ability in the slot whether it be in the draft or free agency. But I defintely hope they stay away from Mathieu....unless its as a UDFA.
I don't think his 40 time will be very impressive, but I really I think his agility and short area quickness are both very good. Still a lot of questions about him that will have to be answered. If you were to rank all the players based on how good of a pure football player they are he is easily top 100 maybe even top 50 he gets it.
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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