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Old 02-18-2013, 12:41 PM    (permalink
leroyisgod
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Originally Posted by Witten4HOF View Post
There is a lot of depth I this years class so the value should be right if we want to go that route. I can see the team using a third rounder but I agree that the first two picks would be best used in the trenches.

I really feel Jerry is going to try to move the pick even if someone like Warmack is on the board especially if he can pick up and extra 2nd in the process.
I like the idea of picking up extra picks, but if a guy like Warmack is sitting there at 18 I'd have a hard time passing on him. Unless were going to gain multiple picks, I just don't want to do it.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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I agree but I am already having flashbacks of Stephen Jackson being on the board and trading out of the first.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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for all the talk of trading back i read an article a week ago about the patriots all those picks they've had over the years an interesting enough even though they had all those second, third and 4th round picks very few have actually panned out. gronkowski who they traded up for is the only pro bowl player. i try to find the article

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
I have watched plenty of Florida and Elam, and he always impressed me when he was working forward and his objective was to knock someone out, but when it came to coverage he had his fair share of struggles. Elam will struggle if he's asked to play man coverage at all, and that's where Vaccaro happens to excel.

Mark Barron did not possess even above average coverage skills when coming out last year, he had the tendency to be a liability. I even made the analogy last year that Barron had the ball skills of a lesbian, and it came from observations of him being lost with the ball in the air. I had Harrison Smith as the top safety prospect from last year, and he proved more worth than Barron did during their rookie campaigns.

Texas's defense had big issues this past season, but Vaccaro was one of the lone bright spots, and with the way the league has become so pass oriented, Vaccaro's ability to be an asset in pass coverage will only improve his stock.

Strongly disagree. Elam played plenty of man coverage last year and played it well. I don't know how you can say otherwise. His problems come in zone coverage but I believe they can be improved as they are mental, not physical problems.

If he understands what's in front of him and positions himself better he should improve. He's got the speed and range to get to where he needs to be, he's just putting himself out of position at this point. There's no guarantee he will improve but at least he has the tools to do so. Some players simply lack the speed to be effective, no matter how well they understand what's going on around them.

Scheme Kiffin is implementing will have Safeties main focus on keeping everything in front of them. Should minimize thinking and allow guys to just play freely.

Also strongly disagree on Barron. He wasn't below average in coverage at all. He wasn't asked to play the slot at Alabama and was mostly in cover-1/2 zone.

He was a top 10 talent with many evaluators putting him in the 7-12 range overall on their big board.

You dont get that type of grade if you're an in the box safety with extreme coverage difficiencies. He was above average in coverage with great tackling & hitting skills. You're making him sound like he's Eric Reid.

If scouts, gm's, analysts rate you as a top 10 overall prospect and you're a DB in today's NFL, I guarantee you they didn't think coverage ability as below average or that he looked lost.

Also, he and Smith had completely different roles as rookies. Apples to oranges. After never having played man in the slot, Barron was asked to come in as a rookie and cover Jimmy Graham, Tony Gonzales, and Greg Olsen just in his own division. It wasn't exclusive, as the Bucs used Ronde at times but they mostly tried to let Ronde play free w Barron serving as the big body to try and contain some of the best TE's in the league.

Smith played in a Tampa -2 scheme which pretty much required him to just keep everything in front of him. No dropping down into the slot. At least not on a regular basis.

Vacarro is a 25-35 overall big board type of guy. Not even close to being the prospect Barron was. A week class may push him into the mid of 1st but he won't sniff top 10

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:58 PM    (permalink
leroyisgod
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Originally Posted by CowboysBeastMode View Post
for all the talk of trading back i read an article a week ago about the patriots all those picks they've had over the years an interesting enough even though they had all those second, third and 4th round picks very few have actually panned out. gronkowski who they traded up for is the only pro bowl player. i try to find the article
I read this same article and it made you think a little bit. Seems like the teams with the most success are the one's with multiple 2nd round picks and they trade back up into the 1st. i.e. Tampa moving back to get Martin and Minnesota moving back into the 1st to get Smith. They both ended up with 2 starters each, very high quality starters.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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Gil Brants top 100 had this

Quote:
3) Chance Warmack, OL, Alabama
Warmack is very good and will be a factor in the NFL for many years; he should have a Larry Allen-type of career. However, as guards aren't usually drafted in the top 10, Warmack likely will be picked in the middle of the first round. He was an even better college player than the great Steve Hutchinson, who was picked 17th overall by the Seattle Seahawks in 2001.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...best-prospects

If he is on the board at 18 he's going to be a cowboy. Not sure what bigger need we have and he allows competition at center between Bernie and Costa.

Quote:
13) Sheldon Richardson, DT, Missouri
An outstanding athlete for a defensive tackle, Richardson makes me think of a young Warren Sapp coming out of college. He has just one year of major football under his belt, and he needs to play harder on every down, but he has the ability to be good.
I like the Richardson to Sapp comparison actually. But obviously Richardson will have to come in ready to learn. This is the place to do it for him. He's a nice plan B...but no guarantee to be there at 18 either.

Quote:
18) Kenny Vaccaro, S, Texas
I think he's every bit as good as Mark Barron, who was picked seventh overall by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 2012 and went on to have a very good rookie year. The tough Vaccaro is athletic enough to cover the slot receiver; he never slows down.
Vaccaro could very easily end up as the top player on the board when we are on the clock at 18. I don't think he's a high priority for us in the first round with the depth of this safety class. But if guys like Richardson and Warmack are gone...Vaccaro would be a nice compliment to Church in the future. Vaccaro is always around the ball...we could use a safety like that...cover 2 or not. He's a nice plan C for us imo

Trading down from 18 Reasoning and player projection
The NYG have pick 19 and imo there is no bigger indication of moving up then to steal a player from someone. I have seen Flukers name tied to them quite a bit recently. So to me that brings up an interesting situation. Is there a team that needs a year one OT. Fluker might be the last of the immediate starters in this class. Joeckel, Fisher, L Johnson, Fluker. After him imo it becomes a crap shoot. M Wilson from FSU has tools to start but he's a lot bigger risk imo then a Fluker. All this means is if someone misses in FA they may want a year one RT and might be willing to give up a future pick or something. To me thats the thing to watch...who's biggest need is at RT after FA that is competing for a championship in 2014?

Potential teams???
SD LT
NO LT (Bushrod)
STL OT
NYG OL
Cin RT (Smith)
NE RT (Vollmer)
SEA RT
ARI LT
CHI OT
PHI OT
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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DE Research under Kiffin
High Draft Picks
Chidi Obioma Ahanotu
Position: DE-DT
Height: 6-2 Weight: 283 lbs.
He was drafted before Kiffin was there. But he was a 6th round pick that played the position for 6 years. Eventually they went to the draft the year before they got simeon Rice. They drafted...

Marcus Edward Jones
Position: DE-DT
Height: 6-6 Weight: 286 lbs.
Drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the 1st round (22nd overall) of the 1996 NFL Draft.

Looking at the 2013 draft class I see someone who looks awfully similar. DaTone Jones is 6'5 280 lbs. I bet Kiffin would endorse this kid he should be familiar with him from his time in the Pac 10 also. 18 is too early and 49 is too late...so this is a really nice trade down possibility. We might franchise Spencer or Crawford might be a starter...but if we believe starter LDE is a need and grade Jones as a day 1 starter...you'd have to think we'd move down into the early 2nd round. But if you were to pick up a future first or something it's a good trade because you are still getting a starter with a first round grade imo.

I'm looking at 18 and how our board might fall. At what point do we trade down from 18. My rough list of targets that we might look at drafting in the first round
Chance Warmack, OL, Alabama - no brainer
Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU - raw tools just too much to pass on
Sharrif Floyd, DT, Florida - safe pick with good future
Sheldon Richardson, DT, Missouri - greener but unlimited potential
Lane Johnson, OT, Oklahoma - solidify out bookends
Barkevious Mingo, DE, LSU - wildcard but played alot of SDE at LSU...so film
Kenny Vaccaro, S, Texas - nice consolation prize -starter
Jonathan Cooper, OL, North Carolina - another consolation prize - starter
Larry Warford, OG, Kentucky - trade down or trade up target
Kawann Short, DT, Purdue - another guy you could look to move down for. Note on Short...
Quote:
For the second straight season, Purdue players voted Short one of their team captains. Though not all NFL scouts believe wearing a “C” should mean something in terms of player evaluation, it’s a fact that can’t be ignored when adding it to his obvious combination of size and athleticism. Short considered entering the NFL draft after a strong junior campaign, but the NFL draft advisory committee gave him feedback stating he would be no worse than a third-round pick. He improved on his consistency as a senior while playing inside and outside in a multiple-front Boilermakers' defense. Look for Short to land in the top 50 overall picks as a starter for 3-4 or 4-3 teams at the next level.
I see all of the above and I wonder how he could fall out of the first round. He might just be the best consolation prize we can hope for if the worse possible draft scenario goes down. He's not top value at pick 18...but if you look at the rest of the draft class I don't see that many 3 techs. I see guys who can play it...but noone fits the hole of 3-tech better than short imo. Looking at the passed defenses of kiffins in Tampa I noticed that it was obviously Sapp for most of those years. And Short is more like sapp then guys like Hankins, John Jenkins, Sylvester Williams, Jesse Williams. Those guys all have a lot of girth..and that really isn't what Kiffin uses on the DL. Looking at the history he's very rarely had anyone else on the line but Sapp over 300...and sapp was just over 300. So I'm not saying a guy like Syl Williams couldn't play it....just that it's not the best fit. Short fits the prototypical Kiffin 3-tech and might just fill the biggest need for us. I also look at out history of drafting players who were team captains since Garrett has been making the decisions. He likes to draft seniors from big conferences in leadership roles. I think that is something we need to also consider when looking at this years draft. Short fits that bill and could be rated higher on our board then most.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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@Thule:

The more I think about Short, the more I fall in love with him. I think he could be the perfect fit for our defense.

Warford should be there for our second round pick IMO.

Warmack is the no-brainer pick if he drops that far - but I honestly think he, Fisher, and Joeckel would be the only OLineman we draft in the first round, possibly Cooper. I'd love to draft any of these guys, but I'm not sure we will see it.

Vacarro would be a great pickup, even if he doesn't fill the most pressing need. Being the #1 S on the board though, I don't think he falls to us.

I don't think Floyd falls to us either, but Richardson might. I actually like Richardson more than Short, so he's a nice pick in the first round, and I think he could be there for us as well. As much as I love Floyd, Richardson and Short could possibly be better fits.

Ansah/Mingo - It'd be a risky pick to me, and with far greater needs, I wouldn't be a fan of it. Still, if he pans out, it gives us a NYG-type pass rusher, which would certainly help Ware out.



I don't think we'll go there in the first round, but I think we could look for a receiver in the 2nd-3rd round. There's a possibility that Austin could be cut this year to free up cap space, leaving us with nothing outside of Dez. I'd love to have a Keenan Allen or Tavon Austin to pair with him.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by thule View Post
Gil Brants top 100 had this



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...best-prospects

If he is on the board at 18 he's going to be a cowboy. Not sure what bigger need we have and he allows competition at center between Bernie and Costa.



I like the Richardson to Sapp comparison actually. But obviously Richardson will have to come in ready to learn. This is the place to do it for him. He's a nice plan B...but no guarantee to be there at 18 either.



Vaccaro could very easily end up as the top player on the board when we are on the clock at 18. I don't think he's a high priority for us in the first round with the depth of this safety class. But if guys like Richardson and Warmack are gone...Vaccaro would be a nice compliment to Church in the future. Vaccaro is always around the ball...we could use a safety like that...cover 2 or not. He's a nice plan C for us imo

Trading down from 18 Reasoning and player projection
The NYG have pick 19 and imo there is no bigger indication of moving up then to steal a player from someone. I have seen Flukers name tied to them quite a bit recently. So to me that brings up an interesting situation. Is there a team that needs a year one OT. Fluker might be the last of the immediate starters in this class. Joeckel, Fisher, L Johnson, Fluker. After him imo it becomes a crap shoot. M Wilson from FSU has tools to start but he's a lot bigger risk imo then a Fluker. All this means is if someone misses in FA they may want a year one RT and might be willing to give up a future pick or something. To me thats the thing to watch...who's biggest need is at RT after FA that is competing for a championship in 2014?

Potential teams???
SD LT
NO LT (Bushrod)
STL OT
NYG OL
Cin RT (Smith)
NE RT (Vollmer)
SEA RT
ARI LT
CHI OT
PHI OT
no one is trading up to get our pick at 18, New Orl don't pay tackles, they have sunk the money in their offensive line into their guards. Cincy will tag smith more than likely, Sea drafted a right tackle 2 years ago (james carpenter) and he's been good fo them. If KC franchise Albert, Joeckel will slide to Philly and they'll take him in a heartbeat, SD and ARZ are in prime position to Fisher and Johnson. NE drafted Cannon and he's a good candidate to possibly start, had he not been diagnosed with cancer he probably would have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick. all of the teams, except for chicago have better options at tackle rather than giving up a 3rd round pick to trade up to fluker. and chicago is in prime spot to draft fluker. i know everyone is enamored with trading down, but i don't see it. mike mayock made a great point, in this draft the guy at 5 isn't much better than the guy at 30. so it wouldn't make sense to trade up.

there are plenty of second round options that you're sleeping on. Dallas Thomas would be a an excellent fit for a team that runs a heavy zone scheme, i know he played guard this year but his best fit is as tackle in zone scheme. Brennan williams is another guy that has been a 3 year starter at RT, but played through a shoulder injury most of the year so his stock has dropped, but if he's healthy he is day 1 starter at right tackle. Wagner and Aboushi both have alot experience and project to the right side b/c of limitations in pass pro but on a team that has solid overall line they could start at right tackle but maybe need a little help when going up against upper echelon pass rusher. Fluker is not end all and be all of this OT class.

oh yeah i scouts inc recently updated their rankings and they have vacarro as the 6th best overall player, so doubt he gets to 18 either

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Old 02-19-2013, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thule View Post
DE Research under Kiffin
High Draft Picks
Chidi Obioma Ahanotu
Position: DE-DT
Height: 6-2 Weight: 283 lbs.
He was drafted before Kiffin was there. But he was a 6th round pick that played the position for 6 years. Eventually they went to the draft the year before they got simeon Rice. They drafted...

Marcus Edward Jones
Position: DE-DT
Height: 6-6 Weight: 286 lbs.
Drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the 1st round (22nd overall) of the 1996 NFL Draft.

Looking at the 2013 draft class I see someone who looks awfully similar. DaTone Jones is 6'5 280 lbs. I bet Kiffin would endorse this kid he should be familiar with him from his time in the Pac 10 also. 18 is too early and 49 is too late...so this is a really nice trade down possibility. We might franchise Spencer or Crawford might be a starter...but if we believe starter LDE is a need and grade Jones as a day 1 starter...you'd have to think we'd move down into the early 2nd round. But if you were to pick up a future first or something it's a good trade because you are still getting a starter with a first round grade imo.

I'm looking at 18 and how our board might fall. At what point do we trade down from 18. My rough list of targets that we might look at drafting in the first round
Chance Warmack, OL, Alabama - no brainer
Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU - raw tools just too much to pass on
Sharrif Floyd, DT, Florida - safe pick with good future
Sheldon Richardson, DT, Missouri - greener but unlimited potential
Lane Johnson, OT, Oklahoma - solidify out bookends
Barkevious Mingo, DE, LSU - wildcard but played alot of SDE at LSU...so film
Kenny Vaccaro, S, Texas - nice consolation prize -starter
Jonathan Cooper, OL, North Carolina - another consolation prize - starter
Larry Warford, OG, Kentucky - trade down or trade up target
Kawann Short, DT, Purdue - another guy you could look to move down for. Note on Short...

I see all of the above and I wonder how he could fall out of the first round. He might just be the best consolation prize we can hope for if the worse possible draft scenario goes down. He's not top value at pick 18...but if you look at the rest of the draft class I don't see that many 3 techs. I see guys who can play it...but noone fits the hole of 3-tech better than short imo. Looking at the passed defenses of kiffins in Tampa I noticed that it was obviously Sapp for most of those years. And Short is more like sapp then guys like Hankins, John Jenkins, Sylvester Williams, Jesse Williams. Those guys all have a lot of girth..and that really isn't what Kiffin uses on the DL. Looking at the history he's very rarely had anyone else on the line but Sapp over 300...and sapp was just over 300. So I'm not saying a guy like Syl Williams couldn't play it....just that it's not the best fit. Short fits the prototypical Kiffin 3-tech and might just fill the biggest need for us. I also look at out history of drafting players who were team captains since Garrett has been making the decisions. He likes to draft seniors from big conferences in leadership roles. I think that is something we need to also consider when looking at this years draft. Short fits that bill and could be rated higher on our board then most.

When you look at what Marinelli had in Chi, it's similar to the point you made about Kiffin. No big hogs in the middle. More of the athletic, disruptive type of guys. Never really went after guys who were solely space eaters.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:59 AM    (permalink
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no one is trading up to get our pick at 18, New Orl don't pay tackles, they have sunk the money in their offensive line into their guards. Cincy will tag smith more than likely, Sea drafted a right tackle 2 years ago (james carpenter) and he's been good fo them. If KC franchise Albert, Joeckel will slide to Philly and they'll take him in a heartbeat, SD and ARZ are in prime position to Fisher and Johnson. NE drafted Cannon and he's a good candidate to possibly start, had he not been diagnosed with cancer he probably would have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick. all of the teams, except for chicago have better options at tackle rather than giving up a 3rd round pick to trade up to fluker. and chicago is in prime spot to draft fluker. i know everyone is enamored with trading down, but i don't see it. mike mayock made a great point, in this draft the guy at 5 isn't much better than the guy at 30. so it wouldn't make sense to trade up.

there are plenty of second round options that you're sleeping on. Dallas Thomas would be a an excellent fit for a team that runs a heavy zone scheme, i know he played guard this year but his best fit is as tackle in zone scheme. Brennan williams is another guy that has been a 3 year starter at RT, but played through a shoulder injury most of the year so his stock has dropped, but if he's healthy he is day 1 starter at right tackle. Wagner and Aboushi both have alot experience and project to the right side b/c of limitations in pass pro but on a team that has solid overall line they could start at right tackle but maybe need a little help when going up against upper echelon pass rusher. Fluker is not end all and be all of this OT class.

oh yeah i scouts inc recently updated their rankings and they have vacarro as the 6th best overall player, so doubt he gets to 18 either

You never know, someone could fall that another team is in love with. It doesn't necessarily have to be a team behind us either. It could be a team with an early 2nd round pick that wants to jump back into the first.

Cannot believe scouts inc. has Vacarro at 6th overall. There are probably 6 defensive lineman alone that are better than him in this draft.

Totally reasonable to think he's around at 18. I think the question you ask yourself if you're the Cowboys is how big of an upgrade is Vacarro over the 2/3/4 safety on your board? Is he worth that pick?
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:03 AM    (permalink
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Been watching the safeties for the 2nd time around tonight. It's very hard to evaluate both Elam & Vacarro because both spent more time as a nickel back than they did in a traditional safety position. So far those are the only 2 I've made it through twice.

All the time in the slot adds to the versatility of both, and certainly can be viewed as a plus for covering the new age TE, but makes it hard to evaluate them when you can't see what they'd be doing in the base defense at the next level.

Sure, they'll be asked to play the slot on occasion. But they're being drafted as safeties and deep is where they will spend the majority of their time.

I've read articles saying Kiffin is going away from a traditional 2 deep look all of the time and will implore a scheme similar to what Seattle ran with multiple looks so it appears the team will ask more of their safeties than minny or Chicago.

Contrary to popular sentiment, I also don't think the disparity between Vacarro and Elam is very big. I'd say Vacarro is definitely a better tackler, he's bigger, he's a much better technician when wrapping up instead of just hitting. Both are pretty good in man coverage (considering they're safeties). Both are physical. Both seem to have trouble getting off blocks though -- for 2 guys that are so physical, it's a bit surprising at how frequently you see them handled by WR's in the run game. Both actually play the underneath zone pretty well -- saw both break assignments to make plays based off of watching the QB wich was nice. It's very difficult to get a feel for their deep zone skills though because of the way they were utilized.

Pretty confident in saying both are starters in the NFL.

Cyprien has gotten a ton of hype lately. Going to rewatch him now. Will update later.

Update: Just finished Cyprien. Dude can play. Out of the 3 games I watched he was rarely used to cover the slot, so it's hard to speak to his versatility in comparison to Vacarro/Elam. He's really physical, hits & tackles well. Better tackler than Elam. Has good size. From what you can tell he plays his responsibilities well, I only saw him get beat deep one time and it was on a play where the CB blew his coverage. Cyprien was late, but wouldn't have looked as bad if CB didnt completely fail. Overall he takes good angles, definitely not a coverage liability. Only real knock could be level of competition.

I think all 3 of these guys (Vacarro/Elam/Cyprien) will go between 20 & 40. Easily the top 3 safeties in the class. Not a huge drop off in talent/potential between them. I really believe it comes down to personal preference.

As a Cowboys fan, I'd welcome the selection of any of them in the 1st or 2nd rd. I'd prefer a DT in the 1st but I think it's unlikely that Floyd or Richardson last until 18. 'Boys would have to hope one falls and trade up into 12-15 range to get them.

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Old 02-19-2013, 06:55 AM    (permalink
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Cannot believe scouts inc. has Vacarro at 6th overall. There are probably 6 defensive lineman alone that are better than him in this draft.

Totally reasonable to think he's around at 18. I think the question you ask yourself if you're the Cowboys is how big of an upgrade is Vacarro over the 2/3/4 safety on your board? Is he worth that pick?
well how much of a difference is there between vacarro and eric berry who wen t fifth overall. vacarro is 6'2'' 215 lbs can play deep centerfield, match up with receivers man to man in the slot, support the run. there is nothing he can't do. with the evolution of the tight end more teams would like safeties that have cornerback-like cover skills.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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well how much of a difference is there between vacarro and eric berry who wen t fifth overall. vacarro is 6'2'' 215 lbs can play deep centerfield, match up with receivers man to man in the slot, support the run. there is nothing he can't do. with the evolution of the tight end more teams would like safeties that have cornerback-like cover skills.
I am a big fan of Vacarro, I think he will be a rising prospect throughout the process and will be a top 15 lock imo. He is a solid tackler who will help in run support, can play the deep half, and can cover the TE in the slot. Will he be able to man cover WR's at the next level, I don't think so. Vaccaro has average speed to go along with a smooth back pedal and decent instincts in coverage but will take some misteps that he won't be able to recover from at the next level. Mix that with the lack of forced turnovers throught his career and it puts him a notch or two under the elite safties of that last decade ( Ed Reed, Eric Berry, Earl Thomas )

As for your direct question Eric Berry = Vacarro + Barron + explosive athleticism. He was the total package coming out, was able to play the deep half and track the ball in the air one play or lay the knockout hit the next. They all have similar frames but Berry ran a 4.4 flat with a 43' vert where Barron ran 4.56 and a 33 in vert and Vaccaro is expected to be similar.

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Old 02-19-2013, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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well how much of a difference is there between vacarro and eric berry who wen t fifth overall. vacarro is 6'2'' 215 lbs can play deep centerfield, match up with receivers man to man in the slot, support the run. there is nothing he can't do. with the evolution of the tight end more teams would like safeties that have cornerback-like cover skills.
Berry & Earl Thomas were both much better ball hawks than any safety prospects that have entered the draft since them.

Vacarro can cover but just doesn't have the same nose for the ball as those guys.

Still, I don't think Vacarro is on the same level as Barron. I always like to compare current prospects to previous ones for better perspective. After rewatching Vacarro/Elam/Cyprien last night I went back and watched Barron and he was better than them. More fundamentally sound -- Barron didnt get hung up on blocks, didnt get broken down in space, and never seemed to get caught inside allowing RB's to bounce it out.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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Berry & Earl Thomas were both much better ball hawks than any safety prospects that have entered the draft since them.

Vacarro can cover but just doesn't have the same nose for the ball as those guys.

Still, I don't think Vacarro is on the same level as Barron. I always like to compare current prospects to previous ones for better perspective. After rewatching Vacarro/Elam/Cyprien last night I went back and watched Barron and he was better than them. More fundamentally sound -- Barron didnt get hung up on blocks, didnt get broken down in space, and never seemed to get caught inside allowing RB's to bounce it out.
Vacarro is much better in terms of deep coverage then Barron, he is so much more fluid in his backpedal and is smooth tracking out his man in and out of breaks.

Barron is the better player moving foward, his run support is excellent and has good ball skills in short zones where he can lock onto the ball and drive foward to attack.

Neither player is a Thomas or Berry type of player.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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Vacarro is much better in terms of deep coverage then Barron, he is so much more fluid in his backpedal and is smooth tracking out his man in and out of breaks.

Barron is the better player moving foward, his run support is excellent and has good ball skills in short zones where he can lock onto the ball and drive foward to attack.

Neither player is a Thomas or Berry type of player.
This is absolutely true. In fact, you could pretty much say Barron and Vacarro are opposites in terms of Safety. Vacarro is considered more of a coverage Safety, that is adequate in run support. Where as Barron is considered an "in the box safety" and is adequate in coverage. I wouldn't put either of them in the same category as Eric Berry or Earl Thomas.

I think its funny how last year, hardly anybody on here wanted Barron because he was an "in the box safetey" and wasn't "good enough" in coverage. I was on here lobbying for him for our 1st round pick. Heck, I even remember speculation around the combine that he was going to fall to the 2nd because of his sports hernia. Barron ended up being selected before we would have had our 1st round pick anyway and word from Dallas was they weren't going into the top 10 for a Safety (Barron).

I think Vacarro would do well in Dallas. I like his overall game, and his versatility is definately a plus. He can be used to cover the tight end in the slot or man up on the tight end. Granted, in our division there isn't much to be scared of at the tight end position. (Celek. Tellus and Fred Davis are FA I believe) but his skill set could be used in the games outside of the division and (hopefully) the playoffs.

I've been lobbying for a new Safety here in Dallas for what seems like FOREVER. I'm tired of seeing Sensy back on his heels waiting for the running back to get to him, then completely whiff on the tackle, or him not turning to look for the ball till after its already in the end zone. (Sidney Rice TD in playoffs a few years ago should ring a bell).

I just think we need a new look in the back end of the defense. Church shows some promise, but how well is he gonna play coming off an achilles injury? Thats one of the toughest injuries to come back from. I would love for Matt Johnson to excel here, but what has he shown lately? Is ability to keep the training staff busy?

Vacarro could be a potential fit for us in D, if he makes it to us at 18. By no means would I trade up for him, especially with the other huge holes needing to be filled on this team. But we definitely do need to address the Safety position in the first 3 rounds. If we don't get Vacarro in 1st, then I'd look to Elam/Cyprien/Reid in 2nd, or possibly even Tony Jefferson in 3rd.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm seeing more and more mocks with Hankins available at our pick. Probably has to do with Floyd and Richardson rising, but it seems like a realistic scenario. How does everyone feel about him? Different kind of player than Floyd and Richardson, probably best suited as a 1-Tech where he can anchor the middle of the D. May not be as sexy a position as 3T, but he's a blue chip talent and there's nothing wrong with bringing in a potential elite run defender.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't mind BIG HANK in the middle of the D. I think he could step in as the 1 tech right away. Then we could have Hatch/Rat as the penetrating 3 tech. This could also save on Ratliff, and we could use him more on passing downs.

Ware and Crawford at DE. Then combination of Hank, Rat, and Hatcher at DT's. (Hank 1 tech, Hatcher 3 tech, and Ratliff possibly both)
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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I'm seeing more and more mocks with Hankins available at our pick. Probably has to do with Floyd and Richardson rising, but it seems like a realistic scenario. How does everyone feel about him? Different kind of player than Floyd and Richardson, probably best suited as a 1-Tech where he can anchor the middle of the D. May not be as sexy a position as 3T, but he's a blue chip talent and there's nothing wrong with bringing in a potential elite run defender.
not really into hankins myself, while i like having some big bodies to eat up some blocks in the middle, i would rather use our top pick to fortify the o-line, opt for brandon williams in the 2nd or 3rd he has much more pass rush potential.

hankins and jenkins as well, look like guys who are always going struggle with weight and conditioning issues
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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not really into hankins myself, while i like having some big bodies to eat up some blocks in the middle, i would rather use our top pick to fortify the o-line, opt for brandon williams in the 2nd or 3rd he has much more pass rush potential.

hankins and jenkins as well, look like guys who are always going struggle with weight and conditioning issues
Yup. Brandon Williams is where my heart lies as well.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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Hank isn't a Kiffin type of DLmen. If anything Spears will be your new NT (which I've felt for years was his best role in the NFL, as a 4-3 NT).

Do you have cap space? With Kiffina and Rod in town I would be curious to see if you make a push for Melton. Melton wants a ton of money though.

Your front 7 is pretty much set if you re-sign Spencer. You just need a safety, and Vaccaro could be your guy. Unless a great 3 tech is available which is possible.

I'm personally against the idea of you guys taking an OL in the 1st, but I know most of you won't agree with me on that. I see a Dallas offense that is very productive, and was the 6th ranked offense in the league. That's good production. The OL demands are unnecessary. You produce offensively. Any offensive shortcomings can be mitigated with a lighter investment or adjustments.

I'm guilty of not caring much for OL though. I feel a good qb can adjust.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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Vacarro is much better in terms of deep coverage then Barron, he is so much more fluid in his backpedal and is smooth tracking out his man in and out of breaks.

Barron is the better player moving foward, his run support is excellent and has good ball skills in short zones where he can lock onto the ball and drive foward to attack.

Neither player is a Thomas or Berry type of player.
Let me know where I can see Vacarro playing deep coverage. Plenty of tape available of Barron doing a damn good job in that position but of the 4 games I've watched of Vaccaro he's in the slot 85% of the time.

Either way, I just don't believe Vacarro is the same caliber player that Barron was coming out. He's got some different skills but Barron would be my unquestioned top safety if he were in this class.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Hank isn't a Kiffin type of DLmen. If anything Spears will be your new NT (which I've felt for years was his best role in the NFL, as a 4-3 NT).

Do you have cap space? With Kiffina and Rod in town I would be curious to see if you make a push for Melton. Melton wants a ton of money though.

Your front 7 is pretty much set if you re-sign Spencer. You just need a safety, and Vaccaro could be your guy. Unless a great 3 tech is available which is possible.

I'm personally against the idea of you guys taking an OL in the 1st, but I know most of you won't agree with me on that. I see a Dallas offense that is very productive, and was the 6th ranked offense in the league. That's good production. The OL demands are unnecessary. You produce offensively. Any offensive shortcomings can be mitigated with a lighter investment or adjustments.

I'm guilty of not caring much for OL though. I feel a good qb can adjust.
Was reported yesterday they will not pursue Melton. As far as Spencer, he's as good as gone. A team like the Colts have OLB need and money to burn.

I hear what you're saying about the offense being ranked 6th but that's a misleading statistic. So much of the Cowboys yardage were junk yards given up by the defense because they had such a huge lead. The team was not consistent running the ball and was terrible in the red zone.

OL is definitely a problem. But I don't agree with taking a guard in the first. Not unless the team is solid everywhere else. DL and S more pressing need for this team in the 1st.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
Was reported yesterday they will not pursue Melton. As far as Spencer, he's as good as gone. A team like the Colts have OLB need and money to burn.

I hear what you're saying about the offense being ranked 6th but that's a misleading statistic. So much of the Cowboys yardage were junk yards given up by the defense because they had such a huge lead. The team was not consistent running the ball and was terrible in the red zone.

OL is definitely a problem. But I don't agree with taking a guard in the first. Not unless the team is solid everywhere else. DL and S more pressing need for this team in the 1st.
Yeah I'm not saying don't address it at all, but I would also prefer going defense in round 1.

Now if a Chance Warmack/DJ Fluker/Cooper/Lane Johnson is there at 18 then you definitely have to think about it and compare it to the defensive talent available and make a hard decision, but at the same time, for example if Richardson and Fluker are both on the board, you gotta go with Richardson.

Or if Ansah is there and Cooper is there, you gotta go Ansah etc.
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