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Old 02-18-2013, 07:12 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Originally Posted by Splat View Post
An OG first overall? I'm done with this thread.
Saying an OG can't go first overall is just as harebrained as people who say Geno isn't worth the first pick but still mock him top-10. It's about who's available this year, not the position you'd prefer if talent levels were equal across the top of all positions. They never are, and this year's quarterback class is decidedly lacking in the "wow" department. On the other hand, there will be a few fantastic offensive linemen available, and a couple of them are projected as interior players. There's nothing wrong with a team building on its strengths. Jamaal Charles is KC's best player right now. Maybe taking out the weakest point of the offensive line and making it a strength would pay some huge dividends. Maybe it makes things a lot easier for the QB you bring in through free agency or at the top of the second.

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
Vidae, what about Logan Ryan #1 overall?

because. because.
I'd take him over Joeckel.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
Saying an OG can't go first overall is just as harebrained as people who say Geno isn't worth the first pick but still mock him top-10. It's about who's available this year, not the position you'd prefer if talent levels were equal across the top of all positions. They never are, and this year's quarterback class is decidedly lacking in the "wow" department. On the other hand, there will be a few fantastic offensive linemen available, and a couple of them are projected as interior players. There's nothing wrong with a team building on its strengths. Jamaal Charles is KC's best player right now. Maybe taking out the weakest point of the offensive line and making it a strength would pay some huge dividends. Maybe it makes things a lot easier for the QB you bring in through free agency or at the top of the second.
Offensive line IS NOT A NEED though. It just isn't. If Albert doesn't re-sign here long term then OT will be a huge need, but there is no need in KC for a guard or center. Period.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Same goes for D-line, they have taken numerous 3-4 DE's in the top 10 as well, and where has any of it gotten then? But people want them to keep on doing it because maybe one year it'll change.
Yes...but their offensive linemen are good and the their defensive linemen are bad, so there's a difference between those arguments.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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I'd probably go with Lotulelei because I like the idea of aligning him on the same side as one of Kansas City's pass rushers a la what San Francisco did with Justin/Aldon Smith, or what Baltimore did with Ngata/Suggs in the past. I could see Joeckel as an option if Albert leaves, but I don't think that sequence would dramatically upgrade the team and I'm kind of skeptical of making significant investments in left tackles considering the lack of correlation between having a premier left tackle and being a good team. There are no quarterbacks worth taking with the top pick, so I'd consider the guys at 33, or otherwise a short-term fix such as Alex Smith (via trade) or Matt Flynn (in free agency.)
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Haha I was just trying to piss vidae off with the Cordarrelle Patterson suggestion (although, IMO, if all pans out accordingly, I think he'll be far and away the best player from this class).

I'm frankly not even worried as a Chiefs fan..I feel like I'm in good hands...If Dorsey and Reid take Geno #1, then they believe that he can become the QB that some on this board think he can be..If they don't take him, that probably means they didn't see as a big step up from Barkely & Co.

Plus, given Tyler Wilson's slide into obscurity, I'm starting to realize I have close to zero acumen for judging quarterback play...
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Ok I'd almost rather spank my meat with sandpaper at this point.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Offensive line IS NOT A NEED though. It just isn't. If Albert doesn't re-sign here long term then OT will be a huge need, but there is no need in KC for a guard or center. Period.
It seems like you're so invested in wanting to draft Geno Smith that any suggestion that the Chiefs should seriously consider BPA options just elicits a "but that player isn't Geno Smith!"-type reaction from you. You apparently think QB is the only pressing need on Kansas City's roster, and it's obvious you prefer drafting for need over talent, and that you want to draft Geno Smith, but for those of us who are not (at all) enamored with him, the discussion is going to continue.

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PFF had Jeff Allen as one of the worst OGs in the league for what it's worth.
Are you just going to blow this off with some all-caps?
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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It seems like you're so invested in wanting to draft Geno Smith that any suggestion that the Chiefs should seriously consider BPA options just elicits a "but that player isn't Geno Smith!"-type reaction from you. You apparently think QB is the only pressing need on Kansas City's roster, and it's obvious you prefer drafting for need over talent, and that you want to draft Geno Smith, but for those of us who are not (at all) enamored with him, the discussion is going to continue.



Are you just going to blow this off with some all-caps?
I already answered gpngc. Jeff Allen was the 44th pick last year. Are you really going to replace a rookie because he struggled as a rookie? Does that seem smart to you?

Our needs are as follows: QB, DE, CB, ILB, WR. In that order.

Geno isn't worth the first pick? Ok.

I've said multiple times that Star would be a good pick there if they believe he can excel at 5-tech, which is what he'd play. Milliner isn't going first overall. There is no ILB worthy of a top pick. Maybe Patterson, if he continues to shoot up the boards. And I've said multiple times, in multiple threads, that if Albert walks or isn't re-signed, the pick is Joeckel and that's slam dunk.

I'm not holding my fingers in my ears and not listening, but you're wrong if you're arguing that our biggest need isn't QB. You're wrong if you're arguing that another position makes more sense than QB. Look at our needs. Can you honestly disagree with that assessment?
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm not holding my fingers in my ears and not listening, but you're wrong if you're arguing that our biggest need isn't QB. You're wrong if you're arguing that another position makes more sense than QB. Look at our needs. Can you honestly disagree with that assessment?
No, QB is clearly a huge need. I suppose it's more that I'm just feeling kind of adamant that Geno is not the prospect some people are making him out to be. In nearly any other year, a team with a glaring QB need can take the "consensus" no. 1 QB prospect and be doing pretty well. I think this is the odd year where doing that would be shooting oneself in the foot. Geno has shown precious little ability to read defenses in his film and can fall apart under pressure. He doesn't blow me away in interviews. At all. It's so, so easy to justify picking him based on his "upside," but all the word "upside" really has to do with are his triangle numbers and how his unpressured passes look. So, sure - he looks the part in a lineup and throws pretty passes. And while that's significant, that's all I'm giving Geno. I give him no mental props. It's a strong criticism, but that's where I'm at at this point. I don't see it.

That's why I can't get onboard with the QB is highest need = taking best QB line of reasoning. I just can't. Geno is absolutely the best college QB of this bunch. If you're looking for a player to throw passes to a supremely-talented WR group against relatively simple coverages, Geno's great. If you need a precision passer who won't get rattled and can anticipate windows to throw to when his receivers can't get multiple strides of separation, who can see a defense and adjust the offense accordingly, who is comfortable looking off a primary read which is covered and quickly firing off to his second option, you're talking about things Geno hasn't ever really shown, yet are critical to NFL quarterbacking. It's not that I think an offensive guard would be better than a quarterback, it's that I have certain guards, tackles, defensive tackles, wide receivers, etc rated significantly higher than any of the quarterbacks, and if I'm trying to inject some competitive fire into a team my approach is going to get the best players I can get at every position. Since there are a small handful of quarterbacks I rate in a similar range to Geno, I'd rather take the player I identify as BPA and then be content to let those chips fall. Since I don't see Geno as a generational talent, even if he is my first choice and happens to be gone at #33, I'm just not bent out of shape about it. I take the next-highest guy I have on my board and go into next season feeling like I've improved my roster and created more competition on my team, not that I've drafted an obvious need and now have my fingers crossed it works out.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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And I completely get where you're coming from, I just disagree with your assessment of Geno and his abilities. And that's fine. Disagreeing is not a bad thing, especially in a forum like this.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:31 PM    (permalink
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Ive heard that Kansas City has considered taking Joeckel and moving Albert to guard, where he has played before. I don't know what you guys were watching, but that line wasn't that good.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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Ive heard that Kansas City has considered taking Joeckel and moving Albert to guard, where he has played before. I don't know what you guys were watching, but that line wasn't that good.
I almost posted a response to this, but I'm pretty sure this was a really awful trolling attempt.

Carry on sir.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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PFF had Jeff Allen as one of the worst OGs in the league for what it's worth.
No one's worried about whether Allen will be good. Everyone saw what happened last year. A lot of the plays he looked bad in were from Lilja being a turn-style. Of course Allen struggled at times on his own, but he's also very talented and intelligent. He's going to be a good lineman.

Probably the best way to look at this pick is which player equals the most wins gained when added to the roster. That player is clearly Geno Smith.

Even if they choose to not bring Albert back (based on Albert acting like a ****** trying to negotiate publicly), the difference between Stephenson if he only ends up being average and Joeckel, if he ends up being Joe Thomas is negatable because it just wouldn't matter that much. They actually lose wins by going with Joeckel because they don't gain any and they end up losing the potential to gain wins by taking someone else.

Probably the next-biggest wins increase player the Chiefs could target is Dee Milliner. I liked what Arenas did on the outside when Routt was cut, but making him and Jalil Brown depth instead of full-on starters would really improve the overall quality of the defense.

After Milliner, I think we're talking about a DL. I see them cutting/re-signing Tyson Jackson and saving probably $10m. That's a big chunk of change to have in hand. They bring back Pitoitua an draft Star and that's a really nice DL rotation. I think the Chiefs can get away with Jackson, Pitoitua, and Bailey though. It's a group that just kind of does the basic job. They'll do a good job stopping the run, but Tamba and Houston are kind of on their own when pass rushing. They're good enough to get away with that (though it's not ideal).

OL just doesn't do anything for this team. Absolutely does not help them win more games in the next 5 years than drafting almost any other position.

I'd go with Geno #1. There won't be any regret taking that man #1 even if he fails. If a nice DL drops in Round 2, make him the pick otherwise grab a CB, and look to TEs in Round 3 (4 if they snag a DL at the top of 2).
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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And I completely get where you're coming from, I just disagree with your assessment of Geno and his abilities. And that's fine. Disagreeing is not a bad thing, especially in a forum like this.
So many of the same arguments used against Geno Smith are the same ones used against RG3 when he came out of Baylor; only makes one or two reads, holds on to the ball too long, can't fit the ball into tight windows, benefited from throwing to wide open WRs all game, doesn't read coverages, etc.

That's one of the reasons I'm so bullish on Smith.
People say he's been inconsistent, but even last season he only had three subpar games including the bowl loss to Syracuse. Geno Smith played at a high level game to game and didn't really deviate from that. He didn't make bad decisions with the football. and he rarely got fooled by defenses.

WHen you scout a QB who's demonstrated he has the requisite physical tools, the ability to routinely elevate his game to a dominant level, is coachable and has a strong work ethic off the field, if your team needs a QB that's a guy you have to try to draft.

I'd be really surprised if the Chiefs looked elsewhere to solve their QB dilemma other than drafting Geno. IMO Smith will be the best overall QB Andy Reid has ever had an opportunity to coach(when he was the Eagles HC), and passing on him would mean that's not what Reid or KC's FO believes to be true.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:45 AM    (permalink
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I hate RG3 and Luck. They have completely made people insane. I didn't realize you had to be a generational QB talent to be worthy of the 1st pick in the draft.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:53 AM    (permalink
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It's like there's two rounds worth of second round picks this year.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:54 AM    (permalink
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I hate RG3 and Luck. They have completely made people insane. I didn't realize you had to be a generational QB talent to be worthy of the 1st pick in the draft.
I really don't think it has that much to do with it. If there was a Stafford, or a Bradford, or even a Newton it would be case closed Chiefs are taking him, everyone agrees.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:12 AM    (permalink
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I really don't think it has that much to do with it. If there was a Stafford, or a Bradford, or even a Newton it would be case closed Chiefs are taking him, everyone agrees.
This is what I don't like about these conversations. Bradford and Newton weren't worth the 1st pick in the draft for quite a while.

A lot of people mocked Suh to the Rams and Von to the Panthers.

Geno will seperate himself in the combine this week.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:19 AM    (permalink
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If Albert is back then it's a QB at #1 no question. I don't think its a lock for Geno Smith, but he is clearly most likely right now.

I'm still waiting for the extreme homers of certain QBs to start popping up. Maybe after the combine possibly?
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:22 AM    (permalink
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Geno makes a ton of sense for Reid here. Easily the most talented QB in the draft IMO and he will become a top 10 player in the draft by April. Maybe even after next week.

Geno played in a spread offense where he didn't make a lot of reads, but guess what? So did Kevin Kolb and Nick Foles.

Nick Foles was in the shotgun all the time last year. Watch his tape. So scheme and reads are not problems here folks. The Chiefs have a top 5 coaching staff in terms of developing QB's. Reid has always helped QB's look good and Pederson is very underrated. Some think he's the next OC that will be a great HC.

When KC signs Albert (they are talking right now) then this LT crap can be put to bed. And no people, the Chiefs are NOT drafting Star Lotulewhatever. If the Chiefs want a good run stopper who can't rush the QB, then resign Glenn Dorsey.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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There won't be any regret taking that man #1 even if he fails.
how is this a true statement? If the Chiefs use a #1 pick on Smith, and he fails, there will be regret (and firings). The new contracts are less but no owner wants to find out they just wasted 23 million dollars.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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Same goes for D-line, they have taken numerous 3-4 DE's in the top 10 as well, and where has any of it gotten then? But people want them to keep on doing it because maybe one year it'll change.
Go look at some of my numberous post about that. The Chiefs face a situation where they could have nothing at defensive line with Dorsey, Pitoitua, and Shaun Smith being UFAs. And Tyson Jackson carrying a heavy cap number with less than stellar play. Conversely, the Chiefs have a guy at LT who has proven to be solid and has expressed a desire to stay.

To your point, it sucks that the Chiefs may be faced with taking another defensive lineman high in this draft. But, this a very weird draft. And the Chiefs are an even stranger team with regards to what they have, may have and won't have available on their roster.

Also, I have not said the Chiefs have to go with Star Lotulelei with that pick at 1/1. However, I will say that despite their history of drafting defensive linemen, added to the potential of them "possibly" not having anything at defensive end at some point, Star should be in the conversation.

The 1000 pound gorilla in the room for the Chiefs is at QB, obviously. But there is still much to learn with regards to the QB group and what value they bring.

Also, the Chiefs have a big need at corner opposite of Brandon Flowers where they currently have no one on the roster that's a starter except Flowers. So Dee Milliner should be in the conversation as well.

The entire point of my rants as I hinted to earlier is that it's a strange draft. And the conventional wisdom may have to be bent a little this year for the Chiefs in order to draft a player that fills a need yet brings reasonable value to the pick.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...best-prospects

Gil Brandt has Geno as his 4th best prospect going into the combine.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Geno played in a spread offense where he didn't make a lot of reads, but guess what? So did Kevin Kolb whos proven hes mediocre at best if hes proven anything at all and Nick Foles who has proven nothing.

Nick Foles was in the shotgun all the time last year. Watch his tape. So scheme and reads are not problems here folks. please tell me the above statement is an ignorant joke? shotgun does not equal spread, not in the freaking slightest. same way pistol does not equal zone read yet every dumb*** on tv calls it the pistol offense like its revolutionary, this is a huge pet peeve of mine. just because foles and smith were in the gun doesnt mean they ran even close to the same offense. The Chiefs have a top 5 coaching staff in terms of developing QB's. Reid has always helped QB's look good very true, reid makes every qb look quite a bit better than he really is and Pederson is very underrated.
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...best-prospects

Gil Brandt has Geno as his 4th best prospect going into the combine.
he has barkley and EJ MANUEL as second round values. i dont like barkley a whole lot, but EJ MANUEL? Yeah, i dont give a damn what he says, glennon is the best QB available and its not close and i think the combine will show it.

ive gone into my thoughts on geno quite a bit in this thread, i dont feel up to it anymore but i will say that people are seeing what they want to in him and not stepping back and seeing whats there. comparing him to RGIII is shameful, the two are nothing alike as prospects to anyone but the inept.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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Adam Schefter reported on SportsCenter that KC would find a way to keep Bowe this offseason, even if it means tagging him for the second straight season (@120% of his pay, correct?).

Does that take Patterson out of the running for #1?
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