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Old 02-18-2013, 09:17 PM    (permalink
Ness
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Originally Posted by dan77733 View Post
Everytime I see him in the slot, he gets his ass kicked.
Carlos Rogers in the slot on this play clearly getting his ass kicked.

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Old 02-18-2013, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Menardo75 View Post
This right here has been why I think we should bring in a nickel corner and seriously take a look at Tyraan Matheiu for that role in the draft.
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
I honestly don't believe Matheiu has viable NFL position. He's not a CB. His hips are too stiff and his change of direction is below average the times I recall seeing him play. Too small to play outside yet, too slow for the slot. Not big enough to play safety, yet I believe FS is probably the position that suits his skill-set best. They most definitely will bring in a CB who has ability in the slot whether it be in the draft or free agency. But I defintely hope they stay away from Mathieu....unless its as a UDFA.
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I don't think his 40 time will be very impressive, but I really I think his agility and short area quickness are both very good. Still a lot of questions about him that will have to be answered. If you were to rank all the players based on how good of a pure football player they are he is easily top 100 maybe even top 50 he gets it.
I'm hoping for Matheiu just for his ability to cause turnovers. That alone is worth a mid to late round draft pick. Culliver had problems too and we still drafted him. Would definitely take a chance on Matheiu in the 4th round or later.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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You do realize playing over the slot is the more physically demanding and the toughest job a CB can have right? Its much easy to man the outside routes. You have safety help 50% of the time, as well as having the sideline as a extra defender. And by playing strictly one side of the field, your technique and footwork rarely changes, depending on the type of leverage your using.

Over the slot, your in press coverage pretty much exclusively. Rarely do you receive safety help and you could be on either side of the formation, so your leverage, technique, footwork, all that is constantly changing. And you have to face every route. In the slot, because there is more space, every route is a possibility. And each route can be run to the inside or the outside, so you have to study WRs and anticipate routes and really diagnose formations and personnel. And do all of that, while trying to keel up with the DeSean Jackson's and Calvin Johnson's of the world.

There are very few CBs in this league that have the ability to play inside and outside. Who can virtually line-up anywhere on the field. Rogers is one of a few who has that ability and has done it at a high level. What he does isn't easy...that's why we dont just ask anybody to do it. He may have regressed in the slot but he's still better than a lot of CBs whose ONLY job is covering just the slot. If he could just park himself on the outside like Cully and Brown, I doubt you'd see him get worked like both those guys did in the SB and NFCCG respectfully. That's why he's our most important CB. But if you can bring in someone, or coach up Cox to be able to handle the slot themselves, Rogers loses some of his value, and is more inclined to take a pay cut to remain on the team. As a outside CB only, he'd still be better than most. But I don't know if he'd be worth 7 mil a year in that role.
I understand that and yeah, Rogers may play well from time to time but look at the Rams game. Amendola kicked his ass. Rogers may make an INT like in the pic that Ness just posted but more times than not, he's on the losing end of the battle.

As for the SB, wasnt it Boldin who beat Rogers on the sideline one on one for a 4th down conversion in which Flacco changed the play at the LOS? Yep, it was.

Culliver and Brown played better than people are giving them credit for in the SB. It was more on miscommunication and not having and safety depth when there should have been.

You can guys can backup Rogers all you want but if he regresses even more in 2013 (which he will), all you guys will do is say that we should have let him go a year ago which would be now. I dont think that Rogers is worth the money and gets beat way more than he doesnt but to each his own.

As for replacing him, I would use Cox and draft a big physical corner (not Mathieu). Far younger, far cheaper and with far better upside.

You guys want to re-sign/extend our UFA's this year or others but yet, want to waste money on guys who arent worth what they're getting paid, will be on the PUP list for six weeks to start the 2013 season or old washed up veterans. I dont understand that.

And yeah, I want Wallace but I know thats not going to happen but I would much rather see that $52m in cap room used on extending our younger core instead of wasting half of it on old veterans who quite honestly and simply arent worth the money anymore.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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As for the SB, wasnt it Boldin who beat Rogers on the sideline one on one for a 4th down conversion in which Flacco changed the play at the LOS? Yep, it was.
You talking about the play that was essentially indefensible correct? That was a great throw and Boldin, a good receiver himselr, made a spectacular play. Rogers had great coverage on Boldin. The receiver just made a great catch. It happens. Greg Cosell even picked up on this. Nothing you can do in that instance.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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Did someone say slot cornerback?

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Old 02-18-2013, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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You talking about the play that was essentially indefensible correct? That was a great throw and Boldin, a good receiver himselr, made a spectacular play. Rogers had great coverage on Boldin. The receiver just made a great catch. It happens. Greg Cosell even picked up on this. Nothing you can do in that instance.
Actually there is. Instead of trying to deflect the pass, while the receiver goes up to catch the ball, he's near the sideline, just push his ass out instead of trying to defend the pass. Quite honestly, I dont know why more corners dont do that. There's no more push out rule so the defender should use it to his advantage. Even if you have to undercut the receiver to push him out and not let him get his feet down inbounds, you do it. Dont go for the deflection, go for the push out instead because like you said, its indefensible if you go for the ball but if you dont, you can easily defend that pass by letting the receiver jump up to catch the ball and just push him out of bounds while he's in the air because the receiver's momentum will work against him and make it harder to get both feet in bounds.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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Actually there is. Instead of trying to deflect the pass, while the receiver goes up to catch the ball, he's near the sideline, just push his ass out instead of trying to defend the pass. Quite honestly, I dont know why more corners dont do that. There's no more push out rule so the defender should use it to his advantage. Even if you have to undercut the receiver to push him out and not let him get his feet down inbounds, you do it. Dont go for the deflection, go for the push out instead because like you said, its indefensible if you go for the ball but if you dont, you can easily defend that pass by letting the receiver jump up to catch the ball and just push him out of bounds while he's in the air because the receiver's momentum will work against him and make it harder to get both feet in bounds.
Dan stop acting like you know what you're talking about. That is the most difficult route to defend, and is nearly impossible when executed correctly. On that play with the location of the ball there is no way he could have thrown him out of bounds nor could you if you don't know it's coming.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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I'm hoping for Matheiu just for his ability to cause turnovers. That alone is worth a mid to late round draft pick. Culliver had problems too and we still drafted him. Would definitely take a chance on Matheiu in the 4th round or later.
Cully didn't have any problems, wtf are you talking about? Cully translated to either safety or CB at the pro level. Your talking a bout a 6 foot CB, built like a safety that has the speed, quickness, and agility to run with any WR in the league. Mathieu is 5'8 and and barely 180 lbs. And a guy who I'm almost certain, won't time nearly as good as Cully in any of the agility drills, nor the 40. As good as Mathieu was as a sophmore, I also remember him getting worked by Bama in that title game and his lack of quickness being exposed big time. Sure he made plays in college. ALL prospects make plays in college. His defense also didn't miss a beat with him being dismissed either. They still made plays and were still dominant. Not saying the guy is a bum but there are ALOT questions to be answered about him before he can even think about being a commodity on draft day. Like I said, at this point he has no legitmate NFL position. You don't draft kids for what they did in college, you draft kids for what you project them to be as pros. The whole Honey Badger thing was cool and all, but he has to physically be able to compete at the next level. There are real and legitmate questions about that, at this point and time.

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Old 02-19-2013, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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Dan stop acting like you know what you're talking about. That is the most difficult route to defend, and is nearly impossible when executed correctly. On that play with the location of the ball there is no way he could have thrown him out of bounds nor could you if you don't know it's coming.
This is very true. That back-shoulder pass is virtually impossible to defend when executed correctly. If your back is turned and your running step for step with a WR, you don't know if its a go route, a double move or what. And good WRs like Boldin sell it very well. They'll wait for the last possible second and then just stop on a dime and make the catch, while the defender has all his momentum going foward. Physically, there's no way to defend it when its properly executed, unless the defender knows its coming. If Rogers gets his head around, its a easy interception, but its such a 'bang, bang' play and it happened so quick, its hard to always be in the right position.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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Did someone say slot cornerback?

Yea I really like Alford's skill-set as well but I don't like his height.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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Dan stop acting like you know what you're talking about. That is the most difficult route to defend, and is nearly impossible when executed correctly. On that play with the location of the ball there is no way he could have thrown him out of bounds nor could you if you don't know it's coming.
I do know what im talking about. It's common sense. Instead of playing harder, play smarter. Once Flacco audibled, who didnt think it was going to Boldin? Boldin was the only receiver that Flacco would even attempt to make that pass to. Rogers went up to defend the pass but if he would have went low instead, chances are he knocks him out of bounds, never comes down in bounds with the ball and thus, turnover on downs.

I'm not saying that its not difficult or anything like that. All im saying is that near the sideline, I dont know why defenders dont go for the push out instead of trying to deflect the pass when they're facing the receiver. Just push the SOB out of bounds instead of going for the ball. It's near the sideline and pushing him out has a far greater chance percentage wise than playing the ball.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:53 AM    (permalink
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Cully didn't have any problems, wtf are you talking about? Cully translated to either safety or CB at the pro level. Your talking a bout a 6 foot CB, built like a safety that has the speed, quickness, and agility to run with any WR in the league. Mathieu is 5'8 and and barely 180 lbs. And a guy who I'm almost certain, won't time nearly as good as Cully in any of the agility drills, nor the 40. As good as Mathieu was as a sophmore, I also remember him getting worked by Bama in that title game and his lack of quickness being exposed big time. Sure he made plays in college. ALL prospects make plays in college. His defense also didn't miss a beat with him being dismissed either. They still made plays and were still dominant. Not saying the guy is a bum but there are ALOT questions to be answered about him before he can even think about being a commodity on draft day. Like I said, at this point he has no legitmate NFL position. You don't draft kids for what they did in college, you draft kids for what you project them to be as pros. The whole Honey Badger thing was cool and all, but he has to physically be able to compete at the next level. There are real and legitmate questions about that, at this point and time.
Culliver didnt have off the field problems? I thought he did. My mistake. As for Mathieu, I never said that I would draft him to start at corner or even be the nickelback. I said I would draft him because he has an ability for causing turnovers which is something the defense lacked regardless of height, weight, etc. and I would take a chance on him. After all, the draft is 50/50 for every player anyway. Every team is taking a chance on every player they draft or sign or whatever. All im saying is that with a mid to late round draft pick, I would take a chance on him.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Yea I really like Alford's skill-set as well but I don't like his height.
HUH??? If this is the same guy thats listed at 6'0, 185, are you really going to complain about height when Rogers is also 6'0 but weighs seven pounds more at 192? If Alford has a good vertical jump, that'll make up for his "lack of height" anyway.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:03 AM    (permalink
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Speaking of Mathieu, I just read this from Mayock who says that the teams he's spoken to has Mathieu graded as a 4th rounder, nickelback and a returner.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8387/tyrann-mathieu
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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Right, Carlos Rogers is going to knock a big bodied receiver like Boldin who looks more like a tight end out of bounds while he's airborne without his momentum gravitating towards the sideline. Sure, maybe if Rogers had the strength of 5 more men in him. Rogers was smart to play the ball. It would have been dumb for him attempt to push Boldin out of bounds who was falling on his back. Boldin wasn't even that close to the sideline if Rogers wanted to even attempt such a maneuver. It's not like he was running a square out. And that wasn't a 4th down play like you said it was earlier. It was 3rd and inches.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 02-19-2013, 03:09 AM    (permalink
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I do know what im talking about. It's common sense. Instead of playing harder, play smarter. Once Flacco audibled, who didnt think it was going to Boldin? Boldin was the only receiver that Flacco would even attempt to make that pass to. Rogers went up to defend the pass but if he would have went low instead, chances are he knocks him out of bounds, never comes down in bounds with the ball and thus, turnover on downs.

I'm not saying that its not difficult or anything like that. All im saying is that near the sideline, I dont know why defenders dont go for the push out instead of trying to deflect the pass when they're facing the receiver. Just push the SOB out of bounds instead of going for the ball. It's near the sideline and pushing him out has a far greater chance percentage wise than playing the ball.
It's not common sense Dan you are sounding like someone who has obviously never played FB before. Yeah you can know it's coming to Boldin but you have no idea how. Like I said they executed that play perfectly and there is no defense for that. And if he did try and somehow throw him out of bounds it would have been flagged if the ball was in the air so it's a first down anyway. You are wrong the end.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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HUH??? If this is the same guy thats listed at 6'0, 185, are you really going to complain about height when Rogers is also 6'0 but weighs seven pounds more at 192? If Alford has a good vertical jump, that'll make up for his "lack of height" anyway.
From my recollection, he was listed as 5'9 at the Senior Bowl
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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Right, Carlos Rogers is going to knock a big bodied receiver like Boldin who looks more like a tight end out of bounds while he's airborne without his momentum gravitating towards the sideline. Sure, maybe if Rogers had the strength of 5 more men in him. Rogers was smart to play the ball. It would have been dumb for him attempt to push Boldin out of bounds who was falling on his back. Boldin wasn't even that close to the sideline if Rogers wanted to even attempt such a maneuver. It's not like he was running a square out. And that wasn't a 4th down play like you said it was earlier. It was 3rd and inches.
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It's not common sense Dan you are sounding like someone who has obviously never played FB before. Yeah you can know it's coming to Boldin but you have no idea how. Like I said they executed that play perfectly and there is no defense for that. And if he did try and somehow throw him out of bounds it would have been flagged if the ball was in the air so it's a first down anyway. You are wrong the end.
I'm not wrong. Simple physics, gravity and momentum prove it. Boldin's weight and momentum was going towards the sideline which if Rogers would have used his own momentum, he could have pushed Boldin out of bounds even if it's just one foot. As for getting called for a penalty, why would he if Boldin is in the air with the ball in his hands already? All Rogers had to do was undercut him and make him land out of bounds. Difficult? Yes but not impossible if you're going to defend it that way. The defenders always go for the ball on the sideline when they should know that unless they jump in front, they have no chance and because of that, the defender should try knocking the receiver out of bounds. Even if the receiver doesnt go out of bounds, there's still a chance that he doesnt maintain possession if the defender hits him hard enough and how the receiver lands.

I have played football before. Football is football dude. On the field or on the street, the basics are the same. You're trying to add in all the other stuff that doesnt apply. Defenders always go for the ball and try to make a "highlight" play because thats what's in their head. That's how their mentality is setup. Instead of that, if the defender was to use their brain instead, they would realize that a pass like that isnt as hard as you guys are making it out to be because when you add in factors like momentum, physics and gravity, its easier than you think.

Next time you play a game of football, instead of trying to make the pick or flashy play, use all that other stuff to your advantage and if you time it right, you'll see that while difficult, its definitely not impossible.

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From my recollection, he was listed as 5'9 at the Senior Bowl
He's listed at 6'0 in the rankings so thats what I was going by. Either way, he'll get measured at the Combine so we'll see.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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I'm not wrong. Simple physics, gravity and momentum prove it. Boldin's weight and momentum was going towards the sideline which if Rogers would have used his own momentum, he could have pushed Boldin out of bounds even if it's just one foot. As for getting called for a penalty, why would he if Boldin is in the air with the ball in his hands already? All Rogers had to do was undercut him and make him land out of bounds. Difficult? Yes but not impossible if you're going to defend it that way. The defenders always go for the ball on the sideline when they should know that unless they jump in front, they have no chance and because of that, the defender should try knocking the receiver out of bounds. Even if the receiver doesnt go out of bounds, there's still a chance that he doesnt maintain possession if the defender hits him hard enough and how the receiver lands.

I have played football before. Football is football dude. On the field or on the street, the basics are the same. You're trying to add in all the other stuff that doesnt apply. Defenders always go for the ball and try to make a "highlight" play because thats what's in their head. That's how their mentality is setup. Instead of that, if the defender was to use their brain instead, they would realize that a pass like that isnt as hard as you guys are making it out to be because when you add in factors like momentum, physics and gravity, its easier than you think.

Next time you play a game of football, instead of trying to make the pick or flashy play, use all that other stuff to your advantage and if you time it right, you'll see that while difficult, its definitely not impossible.



He's listed at 6'0 in the rankings so thats what I was going by. Either way, he'll get measured at the Combine so we'll see.
Lol ok Dan why don't you go coach DB in the NFL and teach all the corners in professional football your amazing revolutionary technique and get your name immortalized since obviously the guys in the NFL have no clue what they are doing.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Old news from SB week but i just remembered that Ricardo Lockette, Cam Johnson, Tony Jerrod-Eddie, and Al Netter all declined to be on another team's 53 man roster, to stay with us.

Do you guys think any of these players will be contributors for us next year?

I'm hoping Lockette can step up and be a deep threat for us. He had 2 deep catches in 2011 (including 1 against us) but thats it for his NFL career.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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I would at least like to see what Lockette can do in a game for us. Hopefully we see in the preseason.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Old news from SB week but i just remembered that Ricardo Lockette, Cam Johnson, Tony Jerrod-Eddie, and Al Netter all declined to be on another team's 53 man roster, to stay with us.

Do you guys think any of these players will be contributors for us next year?

I'm hoping Lockette can step up and be a deep threat for us. He had 2 deep catches in 2011 (including 1 against us) but thats it for his NFL career.
Lockette is a ridiculous athlete he roasted one of our corners for a big gain in the Niners game in Seattle in 2011, and I think he had a deep touchdown catch in the final game of that season.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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I just think its speaks to our talent that teams are looking at our fringe players as commodities. Cam, I'm not holding my breath. I watched his whole college career and for a kid with his ability, he was invisible waaaaaay to often. Its rare guys get to the pros and suddenly turn it on. I really like TJE. Had that prototypical size you like to see in a 5-Tech and I liked what I saw of him in college, as well as the pre-season. I think he takes Sopoaga's spot on the 53 next year. Don't know much about Netter but seeing as Boone started out on the PS as a UDFA, the fact that he and Wiggins have stuck around must mean the staff is impressed. We seem to have a pretty good bead on O-Line talent. Lockette was a big-time project coming into the league. I would like to see him make some strides this off-season. But the fact all these guys wanted to remain here means they'll be working hard this off-season to remain Niners and not let some rookie steal their shine. So I love the competition aspect that having guys who want to be Niners, bring to that equation.

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Old 02-19-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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From my recollection, he was listed as 5'9 at the Senior Bowl
5097, so just under 5'10". It's a negative but lack of ideal height can be minimized in the slot and his physical nature at the LOS as well as coverage skills makes me love him for that position.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:43 AM    (permalink
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5097, so just under 5'10". It's a negative but lack of ideal height can be minimized in the slot and his physical nature at the LOS as well as coverage skills makes me love him for that position.
I liked Boykin from Georgia last year and I think you may have too, if I'm remembering correctly. I believe Boykin is 5'9 as well and weighed in close to 185 lbs. Also considered very physical for his size. Boykin has good return skills, which was also a plus.

I don't much about Alford right now. Do you like him better than Boykin last year?

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