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Old 02-19-2013, 06:05 PM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Yeah I'm not saying don't address it at all, but I would also prefer going defense in round 1.

Now if a Chance Warmack/DJ Fluker/Cooper/Lane Johnson is there at 18 then you definitely have to think about it and compare it to the defensive talent available and make a hard decision, but at the same time, for example if Richardson and Fluker are both on the board, you gotta go with Richardson.

Or if Ansah is there and Cooper is there, you gotta go Ansah etc.
Completely agree. I also believe the team has confidence that this current group of OL will improve and aren't as pressed as fans are to make an early investment there. I don't agree, but Jerry trumps all and he still likes what he has.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Daniele Jeremiah is saying lots of nfl folks are saying coopers best position might be center. Prob won't be there at our 2nd.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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Daniele Jeremiah is saying lots of nfl folks are saying coopers best position might be center. Prob won't be there at our 2nd.
Agree. But I think a lot of talented interior guys will be available in 2nd and 3rd when the Cowboys pick. Warford, Barrett Jones, Kyle Long, Pugh, Frederick, Schwenke, Dallas Thomas could all still be on the board.

Not a huge fan of Schwenke or Thomas personally but I'm sure some people can make a case for them.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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Came across this today. I keep wondering if he might be the darkhorse going into the combine to fall. I know that it's not likely...but this is the time of the year where you have to prove it in shorts...

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I’m told Bjoern Werner/DE/Florida State has not looked like a super athlete in training the past few weeks and many are not expecting a great workout at the combine from the Seminoles pass rusher. That does not surprise me. On film Werner does not display great speed in pursuit and is more of a short (10-yard) burst defender. Its part of the reason why I never considered Werner to be 3-4 outside linebacker material.
http://www.draftinsider.net/
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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MoveTheSticks has called Werner out for awhile now. Said that he spoke to some teams and many feel he's a mid 1st guy not a top 10 pick. I can definitely see that.

Ansah will go in the top 10 and Werner will fall. That's what I'm expecting.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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MoveTheSticks has called Werner out for awhile now. Said that he spoke to some teams and many feel he's a mid 1st guy not a top 10 pick. I can definitely see that.

Ansah will go in the top 10 and Werner will fall. That's what I'm expecting.
Honestly I hope the Cowboys draft neither. I smell busts.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Honestly I hope the Cowboys draft neither. I smell busts.
I think we can develop Ansah. We have a good program for DEs. But I don't like Werner.

I actually like Tank more than Werner.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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I actually like Tank more than Werner.
Werner constantly commanded double teams throughout the season while Tank was able to take advantage of the one-on-one matchups. Tank is a decent prospect, but Werner is the special player between the two.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Werner constantly commanded double teams throughout the season while Tank was able to take advantage of the one-on-one matchups. Tank is a decent prospect, but Werner is the special player between the two.
Werner's combine is gonna be important for my evaluation. To me, when it comes to pass rushers, athleticism translates to the NFL. Skill can be taught.

If Werner has some questionable numbers at the combine, I would be nervous about drafting him.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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I think we can develop Ansah. We have a good program for DEs. But I don't like Werner.

I actually like Tank more than Werner.
I don't want a project DE. I want to protect Romo and establish a strong running game. GIVE ME OLINE!!!! I'm convinced this team will go nowhere until we're riding the back of Demarco Murray ala the Vikings and Adrian Peterson. That's starts with the OL.

If I have to take a DE... gimme Jarvis Jones.

My wish list:

1. OG Chance Warmack
2. OG DJ Fluker
3. DE/OLB Jarvis Jones
4. OG/C Jonathan Cooper
5. RT Menelik Watson
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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I don't want a project DE. I want to protect Romo and establish a strong running game. GIVE ME OLINE!!!! I'm convinced this team will go nowhere until we're riding the back of Demarco Murray ala the Vikings and Adrian Peterson. That's starts with the OL.

If I have to take a DE... gimme Jarvis Jones.

My wish list:

1. OG Chance Warmack
2. OG DJ Fluker
3. DE/OLB Jarvis Jones
4. OG/C Jonathan Cooper
5. RT Menelik Watson
I think the whole "project" tag is very overrated. JPP was a project. That project outproduced more NFL ready DEs in his own draft class from day 1. Skill is overrated for pass rushing. Pass rushers who are dominant in the NFL have elite physical tools. Teams have 2 to 2.5 seconds to get to the qb, it takes elite physical tools to get there.

JJ Watt is a beast bc he's a physical freak. JPP is a beast bc he's a freak. Ware is a freak. Von, Aldon Smith, both freaks. If you want an elite pass rusher he needs to be a freak.

Of course there are exceptions like the Jared Allen's of the world, but you don't build your team around exceptions.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Werner's combine is gonna be important for my evaluation. To me, when it comes to pass rushers, athleticism translates to the NFL. Skill can be taught.

If Werner has some questionable numbers at the combine, I would be nervous about drafting him.
Werner's 40 might be lower than some like, but he's explosive within ten yards and that's truly what matters.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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Werner's 40 might be lower than some like, but he's explosive within ten yards and that's truly what matters.
That's what I want to see. I want to see that he has that short area explosion.

But to be fair, 40 does matter for a DE. I know people claim that DEs never run 40 yards, but they do.

They shoot up the field 10 yards, then sometimes make a tackle downfield which means they have to run another 20 to 30 the other way. They run 40 yards. That's important too, to know if your guy can make tackles down the field after the ball is let go. Thats especially important now with so many quick passes.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Werner at 18 is a steal...anyone who doesn't think so might wanna go watch some tape on him. There isn't a better LDE in this draft...BBD maybe your comment was more general. But for the dallas cowboys I don't think there is a bigger need then replacing Spencer if they don't franchise him. Crawford is there...but Werner would start over him and be a starter on day 1. Hell I'll even go on the chopping block saying he'd have a min of 8 sacks his rookie year as a cowboy. Werner might not be a top 10 pick...but he is still one of the best players in the class when you put on the tape. Don't even know why I'm getting hyped up about him...would be about as lucky as claiborne falling last year.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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That's what I want to see. I want to see that he has that short area explosion.

But to be fair, 40 does matter for a DE. I know people claim that DEs never run 40 yards, but they do.

They shoot up the field 10 yards, then sometimes make a tackle downfield which means they have to run another 20 to 30 the other way. They run 40 yards. That's important too, to know if your guy can make tackles down the field after the ball is let go. Thats especially important now with so many quick passes.
Drafting DL to make plays 20-30 yards down the field? I have to question your draft strategy. Making plays down the field has every bit as much to do with hustle and nonstop motor. A DE that runs 4.6 but gets turned around and looks lost isn't going to make a play 30 yards down the field no matter how fast he is...it's the total package....looking at 40 times is nice....but it's about the responsibilities of playing the position. You are talking about maybe 5-10 plays a year where the 40 is important....I'll take the 100% of time the 10 yard split is important.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Drafting DL to make plays 20-30 yards down the field? I have to question your draft strategy. Making plays down the field has every bit as much to do with hustle and nonstop motor. A DE that runs 4.6 but gets turned around and looks lost isn't going to make a play 30 yards down the field no matter how fast he is...it's the total package....looking at 40 times is nice....but it's about the responsibilities of playing the position. You are talking about maybe 5-10 plays a year where the 40 is important....I'll take the 100% of time the 10 yard split is important.
His strength should show up at the combine, he has the ability to explode out of his stance on use leverage to win most battles. I agree hands down he is the best Base End in the draft. It wouldn't surprise me if is 40 yard time was in the high 4.7 low 4.8 range but it shouldn't knock him out of the top ten. He reminds me a lot of Chris Long in the way he uses his leg drive to jolt lineman back which in turn leaves his blocker fighting to reanchor. That way when he takes a speed move the blocker is caught flat footed in attempt to hold ground the edge is left open.

It's like being a pitcher, you don't always have to be a flamethrower to be successful as long as you have a good enough off speed pitch. Bjorn has a good change up that makes his 89 mph fastball look like its coming 100 mph.

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Old 02-20-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Drafting DL to make plays 20-30 yards down the field? I have to question your draft strategy. Making plays down the field has every bit as much to do with hustle and nonstop motor. A DE that runs 4.6 but gets turned around and looks lost isn't going to make a play 30 yards down the field no matter how fast he is...it's the total package....looking at 40 times is nice....but it's about the responsibilities of playing the position. You are talking about maybe 5-10 plays a year where the 40 is important....I'll take the 100% of time the 10 yard split is important.
To clarify, I'm not saying the 40 time is more important than the 10 yard split. The 10 yard split is more important.

I'm just saying that the 40 time itself is not completely irrelevant either for my stated reason. Closing speed is important, especially with mobile quarterbacks.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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I really don't think there is any way all of Warmack, Cooper, and Fluker are all gone by our pick. The premium on interior lineman isn't that high, and we are probably on the high end of where Fluker could end up. I'm with D on this. Our D is fine. Sure, D, DT, and Safety needs players, but I could care less.


I'm tired of seeing Romo get killed, I'm tired of seeing him have to escape a play 3 steps into his read, tired of seeing Doug Free not even get out of his stance before Romo is on his back. The points and stats used to grade the offense is null and void last year. All the stats were almost garbage time after we got behind 17 in the first half, and the defense goes into a prevent type shell and we run hurry up for 2 quarters straight.


We can spend all these resources on upgrading the D all we want, but Romo won't last 3 years behind this line. The broken collarbone, the TB game when he looked like he died, older QB's like him get a bad concussion and their career is over. Let's just grab a few interior lineman and then focus on D next year and in the back end of the draft.


I'm not sure Jerry feels the way that I do though, but I can almost guarantee with certainty that this season will be a complete failure if we don't address the line. If we start the same interior line, and/or trot Free out there, we win 5 games and Romo get's knocked out of a game.


Now with that said we'll probably take Patterson in round 1 and a safety in round 2, but our line is embarrassing and full of JAGS then we wonder why a 20 year old Tyron Smith can't pick up the slack for everyone and look like a stud. Let's give him 1 guard to work beside for 4-5 years that is actually a good player, and we see some much needed growth from him.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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I really don't think there is any way all of Warmack, Cooper, and Fluker are all gone by our pick. The premium on interior lineman isn't that high, and we are probably on the high end of where Fluker could end up. I'm with D on this. Our D is fine. Sure, D, DT, and Safety needs players, but I could care less.


I'm tired of seeing Romo get killed, I'm tired of seeing him have to escape a play 3 steps into his read, tired of seeing Doug Free not even get out of his stance before Romo is on his back. The points and stats used to grade the offense is null and void last year. All the stats were almost garbage time after we got behind 17 in the first half, and the defense goes into a prevent type shell and we run hurry up for 2 quarters straight.


We can spend all these resources on upgrading the D all we want, but Romo won't last 3 years behind this line. The broken collarbone, the TB game when he looked like he died, older QB's like him get a bad concussion and their career is over. Let's just grab a few interior lineman and then focus on D next year and in the back end of the draft.


I'm not sure Jerry feels the way that I do though, but I can almost guarantee with certainty that this season will be a complete failure if we don't address the line. If we start the same interior line, and/or trot Free out there, we win 5 games and Romo get's knocked out of a game.


Now with that said we'll probably take Patterson in round 1 and a safety in round 2, but our line is embarrassing and full of JAGS then we wonder why a 20 year old Tyron Smith can't pick up the slack for everyone and look like a stud. Let's give him 1 guard to work beside for 4-5 years that is actually a good player, and we see some much needed growth from him.
I'd think both Warmack and Cooper are high on the board this year. I've heard some teams have cooper higher. We might prefer cooper for all we know as much of a conversion as berny would be. I only see us waiting on OL if we see a guy we think can start in round 2 or 3. IDC who...just be a starter and a upgrade over what we had last year. And if we only have starting grades in the top 45 picks...we can move up to get a starter in the 2nd round. Cost isn't so high and we can secure our guy. We can't have a max unger situation go down again this year. Need to land our 2nd pick. And 1 or 2 really should be OL....round 3 has some dirty starters but then we get into the creating competition talk too.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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I don't want a project DE. I want to protect Romo and establish a strong running game. GIVE ME OLINE!!!! I'm convinced this team will go nowhere until we're riding the back of Demarco Murray ala the Vikings and Adrian Peterson. That's starts with the OL.

If I have to take a DE... gimme Jarvis Jones.

My wish list:

1. OG Chance Warmack
2. OG DJ Fluker
3. DE/OLB Jarvis Jones
4. OG/C Jonathan Cooper
5. RT Menelik Watson
Jarvis as just a pass rusher ala Bruce Irvin? He would be asked to play WDE in a base set (same as Ware) and wouldn't be an option to have both on the field together outside of 3rd down unless you want him at SLB in the base defense.

I wouldn't hate it, but I think a Sheldon Richardson, if available, is much more valuable. Would have been fun to see Richardson with Rob Ryan -- if you watch his game vs. South Carolina they allow him to stand up and just act as a pass rushing rover at times from a linebacker position. I doubt he'd do anything exotic in this new defense, but still, would love to have him. Athleticism and potential is as high as anyone in the class.

I saw on NFL network the other day it's been nearly 30 years since an OG has been taken earlier than 17, which is where Iupati and Hutchinson went. I really think these guys are being over valued at this point. There will be so many in the 2nd & 3rd round that are future pro bowl guys that I just don't see the justification in spending a 1st rounder on a guard.

With as deep as the DL pool is with guys like Ansah/Jordan/Werner/Jones/Moore/Mingo at DE and Star/Floyd at DT, the certainty that at least 2 OT's (Joeckel/Fisher) will be off the board, a WR (Patterson), Millner at CB, maybe a Safety, a QB or 2, and Warmack -- it's entirely possible that Richardson falls to 18 or at least within striking distance for a trade up.

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Old 02-20-2013, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I'd think both Warmack and Cooper are high on the board this year. I've heard some teams have cooper higher. We might prefer cooper for all we know as much of a conversion as berny would be. I only see us waiting on OL if we see a guy we think can start in round 2 or 3. IDC who...just be a starter and a upgrade over what we had last year. And if we only have starting grades in the top 45 picks...we can move up to get a starter in the 2nd round. Cost isn't so high and we can secure our guy. We can't have a max unger situation go down again this year. Need to land our 2nd pick. And 1 or 2 really should be OL....round 3 has some dirty starters but then we get into the creating competition talk too.
Guard class is deep this year. No real reason to take a guard in the first. They just aren't impact players.

You don't get the same return from a guard as you will from an impact DL or a playmaker at Safety. Especially not in their rookie year when most interior lineman are usually a year away from having NFL strength/base
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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I'd think both Warmack and Cooper are high on the board this year. I've heard some teams have cooper higher. We might prefer cooper for all we know as much of a conversion as berny would be. I only see us waiting on OL if we see a guy we think can start in round 2 or 3. IDC who...just be a starter and a upgrade over what we had last year. And if we only have starting grades in the top 45 picks...we can move up to get a starter in the 2nd round. Cost isn't so high and we can secure our guy. We can't have a max unger situation go down again this year. Need to land our 2nd pick. And 1 or 2 really should be OL....round 3 has some dirty starters but then we get into the creating competition talk too.

Yea I just feel like one has to be interior. Warford should be there for our round 2 pick right? He's no Cooper but he's a huge upgrade for us and a longterm starter there. Parnell over Free is addition by subtraction on the right side, and at least one new starter on the inside makes us much better. As I've said before Parnell isn't a longterm starter but he's a great stopgap and won't get Romo killed. His play at the LT position alone sold me.


Beyond that, there is some great depth at Safety this year. A guy like Reid could be there with our 2nd which I never thought, he's a future pro bowler. The intangibles, awareness, instincts, and film all show up huge for him and he's the type of guy we need.


My ideal scenario at this point is probably Cooper, then Reid, then we should be able to find a nice big body to rotate in at LE later. That's where I'm at now, but I'm fine with an interior upgrade at one spot in the early rounds. I almost don't trust us enough to wait until the 2nd or 3rd round seeing our track record.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Not new to this message board, however, I have not posted much. I will tell you this, DJ Fluker is a Erik Williams clone. 6'6" 350 (once he gets into an NFL conditioning program, weight will not be an issue). The film does not lie, have a look for yourself fellas. He is the IDEAL RT. It befuddles me that we are not talking OLINE. We addressed defense last year by selecting MO Clai' and signing BCarr, and, we have addressed DL every draft. Give Tony solid protection and, we will indeed flourish. Demarco ALWAYS has to juke or spin out of tacklers before he can even get to the first level of the defense. Look how San Francisco has addressed their OLINE. 3 First round players that are all pro bowlers, and their RT Anthony Davis is 24 years old, and will be in a pro bowl near you. Marcus Spears has done NOTHING as a 1st round pick, Hatcher is good, we should've resigned Canty a few years ago, Ratliff has a bit left. Don't need to mention D-Ware. Let Spencer walk, how do you play with DWare for 5 years and only average 5.5 in those 5 years? Then, in a contract year, he pulls together an 11 sack season? Fishy, if you ask me. Let him go elsewhere. He's undersized as a 4-3 DE and, he is 29 years old. If we do not draft Fluker, we will reap.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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Not new to this message board, however, I have not posted much. I will tell you this, DJ Fluker is a Erik Williams clone. 6'6" 350 (once he gets into an NFL conditioning program, weight will not be an issue). The film does not lie, have a look for yourself fellas. He is the IDEAL RT. It befuddles me that we are not talking OLINE. We addressed defense last year by selecting MO Clai' and signing BCarr, and, we have addressed DL every draft. Give Tony solid protection and, we will indeed flourish. Demarco ALWAYS has to juke or spin out of tacklers before he can even get to the first level of the defense. Look how San Francisco has addressed their OLINE. 3 First round players that are all pro bowlers, and their RT Anthony Davis is 24 years old, and will be in a pro bowl near you. Marcus Spears has done NOTHING as a 1st round pick, Hatcher is good, we should've resigned Canty a few years ago, Ratliff has a bit left. Don't need to mention D-Ware. Let Spencer walk, how do you play with DWare for 5 years and only average 5.5 in those 5 years? Then, in a contract year, he pulls together an 11 sack season? Fishy, if you ask me. Let him go elsewhere. He's undersized as a 4-3 DE and, he is 29 years old. If we do not draft Fluker, we will reap.

Great first post. Couldn't agree more, we sit back and marvel the line of the Niners and they addressed assets to get it. I love me some Fluker also, he certainly wouldn't be a bad pick to me. I have him slightly below Cooper and Warmack as options but I have him as my 3rd overall choice for the pick before looking at anyone on defense. Don't know if we'd tinker with the idea of him playing some Guard, don't care. Just want. He is another guy I fully expect to make some pro bowls, just like nobody is surprised Iupati is one of the best Guards in the game.


We all talked about him that year the same way we are Warmack and Cooper, we need at least one more high draft pick on the line at this point.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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Not new to this message board, however, I have not posted much. I will tell you this, DJ Fluker is a Erik Williams clone. 6'6" 350 (once he gets into an NFL conditioning program, weight will not be an issue). The film does not lie, have a look for yourself fellas. He is the IDEAL RT. It befuddles me that we are not talking OLINE. We addressed defense last year by selecting MO Clai' and signing BCarr, and, we have addressed DL every draft. Give Tony solid protection and, we will indeed flourish. Demarco ALWAYS has to juke or spin out of tacklers before he can even get to the first level of the defense. Look how San Francisco has addressed their OLINE. 3 First round players that are all pro bowlers, and their RT Anthony Davis is 24 years old, and will be in a pro bowl near you. Marcus Spears has done NOTHING as a 1st round pick, Hatcher is good, we should've resigned Canty a few years ago, Ratliff has a bit left. Don't need to mention D-Ware. Let Spencer walk, how do you play with DWare for 5 years and only average 5.5 in those 5 years? Then, in a contract year, he pulls together an 11 sack season? Fishy, if you ask me. Let him go elsewhere. He's undersized as a 4-3 DE and, he is 29 years old. If we do not draft Fluker, we will reap.
On Spencer, he didnt necessarily rush any better this year than in past years, he just got lucky. If you look at his "pressures" recorded by PFF he actually tallied less this year than in previous years but had more sacks. Just kind of a fluke.

I agree though, franchise him or let him walk. Wouldn't commit to him long term. Haven't seen enough impact.

I actually hope we franchise him. He's in his prime. Make him play his ass off for a contract again. Franchise would be 10.8 mil but cutting Free/Sensabaugh and restructuring Romo/Carr & maybe Ratliff get the team in position to pay that and still add some basic FA depth while reserving the rest for the draft.

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