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Old 02-21-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
TACKLE
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Originally Posted by ChiFan24 View Post
It's called scouting dude. I might not be good at it, but if you're gonna demand scientific reasoning for my opinion on a prospect, you probably shouldn't be on an NFL draft board.
If you don't have any reasoning behind your opinions, please stop posting. Thanks.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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If you're talking money, you also have to factor Stephenson into the equation. He's a high-potential LT, who was drafted lower because he was raw, that showed he can start in the NFL. How much better is your team with Joeckel than Stephenson in the long-run? Even if Stephenson ends up only being average and Joeckel is some amazing LT, the difference isn't that huge.

It's nice to have an uber OL, but that's not going to help this team at all. This team has a good-to-very good OL already. Their problem is the offensive system and getting a QB that can get the ball to receivers who can catch it.

I think the Chiefs are in decent shape at WR with McCluster in the slot and Bowe on the outside. I'll hold off judgement on Baldwin because I just don't think they used him the right way last year (they also just stopped coaching him once Bowe arrived at camp -- Siriani was way overmatched for that gig). But you can't rely on fixing or developing Baldwin for the other outside WR spot. I like Wylie's potential as another slot receiver, too. They need someone else on the outside and they definitely need a TE.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by vidae View Post
Scientific reasoning? People ask for reasons all the time. If you're not prepared to back up what you say then you probably shouldn't say it.

You think Joeckel will be better than Albert. Why? It really is that simple
Holy ****, now I know why I avoided this thread for so long. I'm assuming it's just 50 pages of you getting pissed at people that are trying to think rationally about the pick? AKA, the same thing your GM/coach/staff is currently doing.

I just laid out the reasons I think Joeckel would be far preferable to Albert. Mainly that he's 8 years younger and significantly cheaper. Pretty much by definition, he has more good football ahead of him. I also think Joeckel has a chance to be a Pro Bowler right away and continue to improve while Albert enters his decline phase. I suppose I COULD justify that opinion by typing out an expansive scouting report of Joeckel, but then again....you're just some Chiefs fan that wants a QB, so I'm not gonna do that, because it would require me to watch video of him for the first time in a month. I'll say he reminded me of Clady. That's as much as you're getting.

I also stated that it sucks that there isn't a good QB available because as much as Joeckel > Albert, it wouldn't be worth passing on a potential franchise QB. If a Ryan Tannehill level prospect were in this draft I wouldn't be thinking twice. The Chiefs owe it to themselves to do everything in their power to convince themselves Geno is worth the pick, but you gotta consider the possibility that he just isn't.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
If you don't have any reasoning behind your opinions, please stop posting. Thanks.
Definitely not going to do that, especially not after I just gave the damn reason in the first place. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Edit: Seriously, what the **** would you people have me say? Durrr I think Joeckel has good feet and is good at pass proteckshun. I'll leave the inane generic scouting reports to Scott Wright. I've seen him play and I like him better than any OT I've watched since Clady. Albert is 29 and LT's aren't worth enormous contracts.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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I have this funny notion that you use the draft to improve your team. Joeckel just doesn't do that. Oh, he makes them younger but they already had the youngest starting lineup in the league (or did at the start of the season). Now it you don't want the Chiefs to draft a QB, which is after all a greater need than everything else then at least give them someone who makes the team better. With Glenn Dorsey probably leaving as a free agent (he never fit the 3-4 anyway), Star Lotulelei makes at lot more sense.

Fellow Chiefs fans, don't jump me on this, I still want a QB even if it is a risk but I'd rather have Star than Joeckel.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, Star makes infinitely more sense than Joeckel.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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I still think Geno Smith is worth reaching for, even if he's not a consensus top pick.

Most think he's a top 20 value, which means they believe he has the potential to be a 10 year starter IMO with occasional pro bowl upside. If that's the case, the Chiefs should draft him.

I don't understand the implicit argument the Chiefs shouldn't draft any QB first overall who isn't one of the greatest prospects ever at the position.

Was Matt Ryan a better pro prospect than Smith?? No.
Was Bradford?? I think so, but if Bradford was 1/1, Smith was no worse than 1/5 in the same draft.

Is it that people think Geno Smith will bust??
If you believe he's a first round talent who has a better than 50/50 chance to develop into a good NFL QB, Geno is worth the top pick in a class with lesser prospects at QB.

A good starting QB is worth more than a potentially elite OT.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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The fact of the matter is I haven't seen anyone be they expert or draftnic that doesn't have Geno Smith as the top QB in this draft class. When it is seemingly not close as it seems like it is this year it doesn't seem wise to wait.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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Was Matt Ryan a better pro prospect than Smith?? No.
Was Bradford?? I think so, but if Bradford was 1/1, Smith was no worse than 1/5 in the same draft.

Is it that people think Geno Smith will bust??
If you believe he's a first round talent who has a better than 50/50 chance to develop into a good NFL QB, Geno is worth the top pick in a class with lesser prospects at QB.
Without question Matt Ryan and Sam Bradford were both better prospects than Geno Smith. I don't have as much of a problem with Geno going number #1 if the Chiefs are going to allow him to sit a year or two and develop, but I fear if he starts right away that we'll see big time struggles.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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No one who goes #1 is going to sit for two years. You know better than that.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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No one who goes #1 is going to sit for two years. You know better than that.
I know he won't if he's the first pick...I'm suggesting he should though
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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Edit: Seriously, what the **** would you people have me say?

Maybe why you think Joeckel would be better then Albert? I wouldn't think that would be a real hard question to answer, nobody said spew out offensive line statistics for the last 10 years.


Joeckel never did make any sense to me though. Your team is in the exact same position next year. Hooray, you got 7 years younger at a position where lineman play elite into their mid 30's, that'll surely prepare them to take a QB at some point in the next 5 years
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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If KC takes Joeckel, I shall giggle my ass off. I've already come to terms Oak will suck a while longer but I still enjoy the rest of the west **** **** up haha. Sorry Viddy, still love ya.

If it's not Geno at 1, I'm putting my money on a defender aka Star.

Yes Joeckel is a top prospect, younger, and cheaper but at best it was a lateral move. What if he busts and blows chunks? Don't give me the "he's the safest prospect/OL" ******** cuz I already heard that once with an LT from Iowa.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Maybe why you think Joeckel would be better then Albert? I wouldn't think that would be a real hard question to answer, nobody said spew out offensive line statistics for the last 10 years.
Good, because offensive line statistics don't really exist, unless you have PFF/care what PFF has to say. So you see how it might be hard to articulate a comparison between the two that doesn't use idiotic "sacks allowed" numbers. I have said literally all I should have to say. So one last time: I like Joeckel a lot. He is the best prospect I have watched so far, based on my scouting opinion. I also watch the NFL. I am fully aware of what Branden Albert is - a top 10-12ish LT. I think Joeckel will be better than that fairly early in his NFL career, and MOST IMPORTANTLY - he will likely maintain that level of play, at a lower cost, for a longer period of time than Albert. He reminds me of Clady coming out, another LT that is better than Albert. I am at a loss for what more I can say, short of typing out a scouting report on a couple of players that you have all seen before.

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Joeckel never did make any sense to me though. Your team is in the exact same position next year. Hooray, you got 7 years younger at a position where lineman play elite into their mid 30's, that'll surely prepare them to take a QB at some point in the next 5 years
I hate that I'm letting myself delve into this argument since I'm not even totally on board with it. I said it's not CRAZY for the team to consider this route, depending on the staff's opinions of Joeckel and Geno. A good QB is far preferable, even a Tannehill level QB would be great, but not one that Reid thinks is another Gabbert.

The logic for Joeckel over a guy like Star? I'm not entirely sure, because if they like Stephenson, maybe they should just roll with him. More than anything, whether they're picking 1st or 31st, I don't think it's ideal to pay a ton of money to Albert on a long term contract. I don't think ~10 million for a near 30 non-elite LT is a good allocation of resources. Especially when you have another tag candidate. So acknowledging that, they have the #1 pick, and they have to make a pick. They know they don't like the QBs. So in that scenario it's Joeckel or Star. To me, it's not crazy picking Joeckel.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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They know they don't like the QBs? They haven't seen them on the field in Indy or interviewed them yet. They don't have a complete picture.

And since it bears repeating: I'm sure Miami is glad they went Jake Long over Matt Ryan. Look how well that has paid off for them. He's about to walk and they've done nothing since drafting him.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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They know they don't like the QBs? They haven't seen them on the field in Indy or interviewed them yet. They don't have a complete picture.

And since it bears repeating: I'm sure Miami is glad they went Jake Long over Matt Ryan. Look how well that has paid off for them. He's about to walk and they've done nothing since drafting him.
Hence my use of the word "scenario." I already said they should do everything in their power to talk themselves into Geno.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:35 PM    (permalink
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About Albert:

Quote:
But he recently traveled to Kansas City to undergo a physical, and Reid said the team is still discussing his situation.

"I had him in because he had a fairly significant injury, so we've kind of got to work through that," Reid said. "Our doctors were able to evaluate him, we're talking through it and we'll kind of reconvene after we're done with this week down here."
There's a chance Reid is overplaying the injury angle to lower his value. That would be extremely shrewd and somewhat devious in my view.

Otherwise I think this belongs in the discussion. Back issues are very tricky and tend to re-occur over time.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:32 AM    (permalink
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Watching NFL Total access...both Scott Pioli and Mike Mayock suggested that the best move for the Chiefs might be to franchise Bowe and draft Joeckel. Pioli didn't comment on the QB class but Mayock said that he didn't see Geno Smith or any other QB in this class as a #1 pick, and it was "not even close." Their reasoning was that he was the only player of significant need (assuming Albert walks) that was worth the #1 pick.

He and pioli went on to talk at more length about the QB's. They suggested that Smith and Barkley would likely go in the top half of the 1st round, and then possibly Nassib, Glennon, or Wilson may go late in the first as teams scramble to move up from the second round to get their guy. Mayock also mentioned Sean Renfree from Duke as a QB that had all the intangibles, and had the same demeanor as Peyton Manning, but just lacked the big arm.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
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And since it bears repeating: I'm sure Miami is glad they went Jake Long over Matt Ryan. Look how well that has paid off for them. He's about to walk and they've done nothing since drafting him.
Miami won the AFC east when Long was a rookie and he made 4 Pro Bowls while he was there. As for Matt Ryan he's awesome in the regular season and a playoff choker. Why is that so much better? Win 13 games and bomb in the playoffs, it's better than 2-14 but also a special type of torture. Just saying the grass isn't greener.

Joekel isn't a huge upgrade over Albert but if Geno isn't better than Brady Quinn that's a big problem. In other words you are focused on the best way to improve the team, with this draft, risk-minimization is the game at the top end. There's alot of ways to screw it up.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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Miami won the AFC east when Long was a rookie and he made 4 Pro Bowls while he was there. As for Matt Ryan he's awesome in the regular season and a playoff choker. Why is that so much better? Win 13 games and bomb in the playoffs, it's better than 2-14 but also a special type of torture. Just saying the grass isn't greener.

Joekel isn't a huge upgrade over Albert but if Geno isn't better than Brady Quinn that's a big problem. In other words you are focused on the best way to improve the team, with this draft, risk-minimization is the game at the top end. There's alot of ways to screw it up.
They won the AFC East his first year thanks to the wildcat, and haven't done a thing since then. And Pro Bowls? That has what to do with overall team success? Or that has what to do with ANYTHING?

And please don't argue that Matt Ryan wouldn't have been a better pick. The Falcons at least get to the playoffs, and that's because of Matt Ryan. You can't contend for Super Bowls if you can't make the playoffs, which the Dolphins haven't been close to doing.

And you claim to like Geno Smith, but now you're saying he might not be better than Brady Quinn? One of the worst NFL QBs in recent memory? Interesting stance sir.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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What good does it do to compare Jake Long/Matt Ryan to Luke Joeckel/Geno Smith? The Chiefs aren't a left tackle needy team and Geno Smith is certainly no Matt Ryan.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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What good does it do to compare Jake Long/Matt Ryan to Luke Joeckel/Geno Smith? The Chiefs aren't a left tackle needy team and Geno Smith is certainly no Matt Ryan.
It's the situation. They decided to go with the LT over the QB, and look where they are now. I don't want the Chiefs to repeat that mistake.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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Miami won the AFC east when Long was a rookie and he made 4 Pro Bowls while he was there. As for Matt Ryan he's awesome in the regular season and a playoff choker. Why is that so much better? Win 13 games and bomb in the playoffs, it's better than 2-14 but also a special type of torture. Just saying the grass isn't greener.

Joekel isn't a huge upgrade over Albert but if Geno isn't better than Brady Quinn that's a big problem. In other words you are focused on the best way to improve the team, with this draft, risk-minimization is the game at the top end. There's alot of ways to screw it up.
The only reason the Dolphins even went to the playoffs that year is because Tom Brady was injured. They haven't had a winning season since. Jake Long went to a team that sucked for the previous six season. The Dolphins proceeded to suck for four of the next five. Matt Ryan went to a team that had never had consecutive winning seasons and went the the playoffs just five times in the last 21 years. The Falcons proceeded to have a winning seasons all five years and go to the playoffs four times.

Matt Ryan is without a doubt the better pick of the two. In hindsight, the Dolphins should have selected him. There is absolutely no argument for Jake Long being the right selection. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being foolish. For the Chiefs, offensive tackle is not the right call either. I'm not saying QB is either. I personally don't think Smith or Wilson will be any good. But if the Chiefs disagree and think there is a franchise QB in this draft, they take him.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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They won the AFC East his first year thanks to the wildcat, and haven't done a thing since then. And Pro Bowls? That has what to do with overall team success? Or that has what to do with ANYTHING?

And please don't argue that Matt Ryan wouldn't have been a better pick. The Falcons at least get to the playoffs, and that's because of Matt Ryan. You can't contend for Super Bowls if you can't make the playoffs, which the Dolphins haven't been close to doing.

And you claim to like Geno Smith, but now you're saying he might not be better than Brady Quinn? One of the worst NFL QBs in recent memory? Interesting stance sir.
Im not saying Geno is definately Brady Quinn. You are comparing him to Matt Ryan that's also possible but neither is a definite outcome.

Like Brady, Geno thinks he's in the convo for 1 overall (even tho most sources have him ranked in the teens) and like Brady he skipped the Senior Bowl to minimize exposure. Good players should want to show off their wares. It irks me when Seniors with something to prove skip the Senior Bowl. After that Syracuse embarrassment, why not take an opportunity to prove himself?

As for Jake Long vs Matt Ryan, they actually were both good picks, by the standard of the draft. If you take a guy and he goes to 4 pro bowls in his first 5 years (with 1 All pro selection) it was a fine pick. Remember some picks are absolutely worthless (like Brady quinn for example). By the standards of the draft both were good picks. Whoever picked Jake Long (Parcells/Ireland) can feel good about that pick. It panned out and so did Matt Ryan. I don't believe it's such a huge regret to take a 4x Pro Bowler in rd 1. There are much worse regrets historically.
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