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Old 02-21-2013, 11:40 PM    (permalink
Brodeur
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
I'm not taking anything away from Harden, he's definitely stepped his game up after a so-so start, but Kyrie has clearly out performed him in a lot of areas and the numbers are there to prove it. Whether you want one guy over the other is irrelevant, numbers wise Kyrie has been the better player yet you say he isn't top fifteen and that Kenneth Faried is better than him. Okay.
But he hasn't been. Their rebound/assists/turnover numbers are basically a wash, which only comes down to scoring. And Harden has been much better at it. You can't just sit and look at percentages, it doesn't work that way. Harden has the better numbers because he's scoring at a much more efficient rate, which is what Kyrie is seemingly known for. Also, I say Faried is better because he's a more complete player right now. He's an excellent rebounder and an efficient offensive player who minimizes turnovers. Sort of why Tyson Chandler is ridiculously underrated, with an emphasis on him being an efficient offensive player and slightly more defense.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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What's with you jumping into discussions you weren't involved in since the beginning? Don't criticize something that i never even said. I'm not dismissing free throw attempts, i'm saying his PPFTA is high and that much different than Kyrie's because of his leading the league in FTAs. That's not a dismissal. Kyrie is still outperforming him in everything else. And it isn't a Kyrie v. Harden debate, it's a Kyrie is top fifteen debate.
You made it a Kyrie vs Harden debate when you brought his name into it. Kyrie isn't outperforming him in anything else, since percentages only mean so much when you aren't converting your shots to points at a high rate or doing point guard-y things.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Kyrie Irving
23.7 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.3 BPG, .470 FG, .424 3P, .853 FT, 18.6 Shots Per Game, 5.1 Free Throws Per Game
.148 Win Shares/48 Mins, 22.7 PER

James Harden
26.5 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 5.7 APG, 1.9 SPG, 0.5 BPG, .454 FG, .360 3P, .857 FT, 17.4 Shots Per Games, 10.1 Free Throws Per Game
.210 Win Shares/48 Mins, 23.8 PER

Kyrie leads in... FG Percentage by 1.6, and 3P percentage by 6.4. Those are literally the only stats he's better at than Harden this year. So your statement of "Kyrie has clearly outperformed him in a lot of areas and the numbers are there to prove it" is bogus. He's only clearly outperformed him as a 3P shooter, thats it.

Kyrie is awesome, I love watching him play, and he's going to be really good for a really long time, but pick someone else to try and claim his numbers are better than.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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What's with you jumping into discussions you weren't involved in since the beginning?
Am I reading PMs again? Oops. Sorry!
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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I feel like people treat combo guards like they used to (still do) treat running QB's. They don't produce in the expected fashion and people hold that against them because their stats in the traditionally valued areas (passing yards & tds/assists and turnover %) aren't as good yet they are still producing and being highly effective in different means. I think of guys like Kyrie, like Westbrook, like (young) Tyreke, that if they were listed as SG, there wouldn't be quite the same negativity surrounding them because they wouldn't be criticized for not fitting nicely into that traditional floor manager/distrubter role. Kyrie is 20 and is already easily one of the most skilled offensive players in the league. If you, Brody, don't force him into that box, you might be able to appreciate him as a player more.


And Metsox, you're dismissal of the ability to get to the line as being a skill is almost as silly as you getting on someone about involving themselves in a discussion on a discussion board.

And pls go R4L.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
But he hasn't been. Their rebound/assists/turnover numbers are basically a wash, which only comes down to scoring. And Harden has been much better at it. You can't just sit and look at percentages, it doesn't work that way. Harden has the better numbers because he's scoring at a much more efficient rate, which is what Kyrie is seemingly known for. Also, I say Faried is better because he's a more complete player right now. He's an excellent rebounder and an efficient offensive player who minimizes turnovers. Sort of why Tyson Chandler is ridiculously underrated, with an emphasis on him being an efficient offensive player and slightly more defense.
That's fine, the fact that it's a debate is why i brought it up initially. There is a case to be made for both those guys as to who is out-performing who, and i find it ridiculous that you claim one guy is clearly elite and top fifteen but not the other guy. That's what i find ridiculous.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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Am I reading PMs again? Oops. Sorry!
You introduced yourself to the discussion by attacking an argument i never made, and have created another one i never intended on arguing. I'm not gonna bother.

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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
I feel like people treat combo guards like they used to (still do) treat running QB's. They don't produce in the expected fashion and people hold that against them because their stats in the traditionally valued areas (passing yards & tds/assists and turnover %) aren't as good yet they are still producing and being highly effective in different means. I think of guys like Kyrie, like Westbrook, like (young) Tyreke, that if they were listed as SG, there wouldn't be quite the same negativity surrounding them because they wouldn't be criticized for not fitting nicely into that traditional floor manager/distrubter role. Kyrie is 20 and is already easily one of the most skilled offensive players in the league. If you, Brody, don't force him into that box, you might be able to appreciate him as a player more.


And Metsox, you're dismissal of the ability to get to the line as being a skill is almost as silly as you getting on someone about involving themselves in a discussion on a discussion board.

And pls go R4L.
First part is exactly what i said earlier. He thinks less of him because he's labeled a PG and doesn't have gaudy assist numbers.

And for about the fifth time in the last page, i'm not dismissing his ability to get to the rim. I simply pointed out that the discrepancy in PPFTA is due to his leading the NBA in FTAs. That's just putting that number into perspective, not a dismissal.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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That's certainly a relief.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
I feel like people treat combo guards like they used to (still do) treat running QB's. They don't produce in the expected fashion and people hold that against them because their stats in the traditionally valued areas (passing yards & tds/assists and turnover %) aren't as good yet they are still producing and being highly effective in different means. I think of guys like Kyrie, like Westbrook, like (young) Tyreke, that if they were listed as SG, there wouldn't be quite the same negativity surrounding them because they wouldn't be criticized for not fitting nicely into that traditional floor manager/distrubter role. Kyrie is 20 and is already easily one of the most skilled offensive players in the league. If you, Brody, don't force him into that box, you might be able to appreciate him as a player more.


And Metsox, you're dismissal of the ability to get to the line as being a skill is almost as silly as you getting on someone about involving themselves in a discussion on a discussion board.

And pls go R4L.
I DO think Kyrie will develop into a great and probably elite player down the line once he refines his skills inside and learns to control the ball more as a balll handler, but that's what is stopping him from being elite right now. He's got the talent, I don't think he's a lost cause in terms of total chuckerness like certain people in New York.

Plus, it bothers me that people keep saying how Kyrie will be this super great PG or the best of his generation PG wise. It just bothers me how insanely underrated Chris Paul is. He's one of the best PG of all time, but no one really recognizes this.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:56 PM    (permalink
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I DO think Kyrie will develop into a great and probably elite player down the line once he refines his skills inside and learns to control the ball more as a balll handler, but that's what is stopping him from being elite right now. He's got the talent, I don't think he's a lost cause in terms of total chuckerness like certain people in New York.

Plus, it bothers me that people keep saying how Kyrie will be this super great PG or the best of his generation PG wise. It just bothers me how insanely underrated Chris Paul is. He's one of the best PG of all time, but no one really recognizes this.
Fun fact, while win shares per 48 mins is definitely a flawed stat if you look at by itself and use for an argument, Chris Paul is 4th all time behind Jordan/Admiral/Wilt, and the only other Point Guard even close to him is Magic.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Then stop watching ESPN. I don't think anyone here thinks anyone BUT Chris Paul is the best PG in the NBA.

I actually just saw a clip of Skip Bayless trying to argue Tony Parker being better. Smh.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:59 PM    (permalink
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A lot of people on TNT tonight were agreeing that while Paul is the best leader in the NBA, Parker is the best Point Guard right now. I love Tony, he's having a great year and I and would put him 2nd, but no.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Oh and Skip also said Tony Parker is the MVP. trollol
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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I think their main argument for TP tonight was that the MVP almost always goes to the best player on the best team and TP fits that mold this year. Not that he is necessarily the best PG or player in the league.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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No they said both. I can see the argument for the MVP going to player who had the best year for the best team, I really don't have a big problem with that. But they definitely said that Parker was the best PG right now.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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If that's the argument you wanna make then everyone should **** and wait until the season is over to see the standings.

Lebron plays for the defending champions and Durant for the reigning WC champions. Both are light years ahead in MVP candidacy worth of Tony Parker. (of course with Lebron easily being the MVP)
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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I feel like people treat combo guards like they used to (still do) treat running QB's. They don't produce in the expected fashion and people hold that against them because their stats in the traditionally valued areas (passing yards & tds/assists and turnover %) aren't as good yet they are still producing and being highly effective in different means. I think of guys like Kyrie, like Westbrook, like (young) Tyreke, that if they were listed as SG, there wouldn't be quite the same negativity surrounding them because they wouldn't be criticized for not fitting nicely into that traditional floor manager/distrubter role. Kyrie is 20 and is already easily one of the most skilled offensive players in the league. If you, Brody, don't force him into that box, you might be able to appreciate him as a player more.


And Metsox, you're dismissal of the ability to get to the line as being a skill is almost as silly as you getting on someone about involving themselves in a discussion on a discussion board.

And pls go R4L.
Meh, whatever
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:53 AM    (permalink
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This argument is ridiculous.

Complaining because a player doesn't do what YOU want him to do just is asinine. Who cares what someone is supposed to do as defined by player definition. That's like saying "women are supposed to cook! Get them out of the workplace." "Point guards are only supposed to pass, stop scoring!"

The man is playing with a team where literally the only other scorer has 40/31/77 shooting splits. His best big man left is under 50% from the field. He's still getting over 5 assists per game. I think that's fine as a play maker.

You're not accounting for the fact that he has no one else who is a respectable shooter or finisher with him. He's on his own. He doesn't even have Varejao to at least chuck lobs to. Give him Blake or Deandre to lob one up to a game, and a competent shooter on the wing, and he is averaging 2 assists per game more, setting him right around 7.5, which is right around Tony Parker's career best.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:26 AM    (permalink
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This argument is ridiculous.

Complaining because a player doesn't do what YOU want him to do just is asinine. Who cares what someone is supposed to do as defined by player definition. That's like saying "women are supposed to cook! Get them out of the workplace." "Point guards are only supposed to pass, stop scoring!"

The man is playing with a team where literally the only other scorer has 40/31/77 shooting splits. His best big man left is under 50% from the field. He's still getting over 5 assists per game. I think that's fine as a play maker.

You're not accounting for the fact that he has no one else who is a respectable shooter or finisher with him. He's on his own. He doesn't even have Varejao to at least chuck lobs to. Give him Blake or Deandre to lob one up to a game, and a competent shooter on the wing, and he is averaging 2 assists per game more, setting him right around 7.5, which is right around Tony Parker's career best.
-Kemba Walker has a better assist/TO ratio aka more assists and less turnovers, and he plays with an abortion of a supporting cast so that kind of makes your point moot
-Chris Paul had no supporting cast with the Hornets and consistently produced, so it's kind of irrelevant. Good playmakers can succeed regardless, Kyrie isn't one in terms of creating for others.

I never said point guards are only supposed to pass, they're generally supposed to be good passers because they're the main ballhandlers on the team and if they aren't, the team will pretty much suck ass unless they have another dominant ball handler. Kyrie is a low assist/high turnover guy for a PG who doesn't score very efficiently for the number of shots he takes. It's not that hard of a concept.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:07 AM    (permalink
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I would take Ben Gordon and MKG over anything Kyrie's working with, so there's that.

Brody just talks a LOT of **** on players on god awful teams. I understand the efficiency argument, I really do, but circumstances sometimes cause for a change of perspective. It's the same god damn thing when people were talking **** on Bropez's shooting percentage and turnovers when his options to pass to were Devin Harris, Trenton Hassel and Bobby Simmons.

Kyrie's going to have these low A/T ratios and poor FG% because he has to do it himself. I think you fail to realize that in a lot of your arguments. Kyrie is so good. His talent levels are ridiculously high. Also, please stop comparing him and his numbers to one of the best PGs to play. the **** is that about? WE know he's not CP3. That's a REALLY dumb name to keep bringing up.

Also, the term "elite" has caused the worst arguments in ever. And I'll readily admit I've fallen victim to them with Eli, but they're so stupid
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:46 AM    (permalink
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I would take Ben Gordon and MKG over anything Kyrie's working with, so there's that.

Brody just talks a LOT of **** on players on god awful teams. I understand the efficiency argument, I really do, but circumstances sometimes cause for a change of perspective. It's the same god damn thing when people were talking **** on Bropez's shooting percentage and turnovers when his options to pass to were Devin Harris, Trenton Hassel and Bobby Simmons.

Kyrie's going to have these low A/T ratios and poor FG% because he has to do it himself. I think you fail to realize that in a lot of your arguments. Kyrie is so good. His talent levels are ridiculously high. Also, please stop comparing him and his numbers to one of the best PGs to play. the **** is that about? WE know he's not CP3. That's a REALLY dumb name to keep bringing up.

Also, the term "elite" has caused the worst arguments in ever. And I'll readily admit I've fallen victim to them with Eli, but they're so stupid
-Bropez is an AWFUL passer, that hasn't changed. That's basically why his shooting was slightly worse a few years ago.
-Ben Gordon is awful and nowhere close to as useful on offense as Tristan Thompson, and MKG is useful primarily for his ridiculous defensive skills
-CP3 is a point guard, he's the bench marks for point guards, Kyrie is also a point guard, you compare guys within the same position

That "has to do it himself" thing is a bunch of ******** if you're a great player.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:06 AM    (permalink
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-Bropez is an AWFUL passer, that hasn't changed. That's basically why his shooting was slightly worse a few years ago.
-Ben Gordon is awful and nowhere close to as useful on offense as Tristan Thompson, and MKG is useful primarily for his ridiculous defensive skills
-CP3 is a point guard, he's the bench marks for point guards, Kyrie is also a point guard, you compare guys within the same position

That "has to do it himself" thing is a bunch of ******** if you're a great player.
wat.
Ben Gordon is so much better on offense than TT. He's a MUCH better scorer. TT's a good young player out of position. And MKG is a useful scorer, stop with that nonsense. He's a good young player and better than anything Kyrie is working with.

There's comparisons and there's saying "KYRIE'S NOT ELITE BECAUSE HE'S NOT CP3". stop. they're difference players. CP3 is one of the best PG's to play the game. Kyrie's of a different mold. Oh, and it's what? His 2nd player in the league on a dog **** team. Sorry his numbers aren't to your liking

Bropez is an ok passer, nothing great but stop it. He would get doubled and tripled because he had NOBODY to pass to. That's my point. When you're the only scorer on the team, only one with talent you have to force up shots.

And no, the "do it yourself" thing isn't ******** in the least. It's how basketball ******* works. If you're great ala Lebron, ok, maybe it's not ********. But sorry not everyone can be the best player in the league. It's honestly simple basketball you can tell that by watching it, it's obvious. It's how basketball is and works. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

I know you're enamored by your statsheet and what not, and I'm with you on quite a few arguments, but you're way off on this one. Kyrie's a special talent, player and scorer. Your Kyrie hate is just off on this one
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:08 AM    (permalink
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Even if he was a SG, having his stats as the primary ball handler is average at best. Brody's argument for everything is basically efficiency at multiple parts of the game, which is something Kyrie doesn't have. We're talking about completely subjective rankings, saying he's dumb for judging a player by what he sees fit is dumber than saying getting to the line isn't a skill.

Also love scumbag metsox. Discredits getting to the like for weeks, attacks people for saying he discredits getting to the line.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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This thread. It is not delivering lately.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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Even if he was a SG, having his stats as the primary ball handler is average at best. Brody's argument for everything is basically efficiency at multiple parts of the game, which is something Kyrie doesn't have. We're talking about completely subjective rankings, saying he's dumb for judging a player by what he sees fit is dumber than saying getting to the line isn't a skill.

Also love scumbag metsox. Discredits getting to the like for weeks, attacks people for saying he discredits getting to the line.
I disagreed with metsox's point but I think Brody's too tough on Kyrie and efficiency thing because he really does have to do it on his own. I'm not sure how people don't understand how that really skews everything. you can't simply put stats out there and judge a player on that. I hate the "U DONT WATCH TEH GAMEZ" argument but "THE STATS!!!111!!" is just as bad
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