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View Poll Results: Is Channing Frye the most influential NBA PLAYER EVER?
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by draftguru151 View Post
Even if he was a SG, having his stats as the primary ball handler is average at best. Brody's argument for everything is basically efficiency at multiple parts of the game, which is something Kyrie doesn't have. We're talking about completely subjective rankings, saying he's dumb for judging a player by what he sees fit is dumber than saying getting to the line isn't a skill.

Also love scumbag metsox. Discredits getting to the like for weeks, attacks people for saying he discredits getting to the line.
Sometimes I just prefer to watch the games/player myself and see the impact he has on games, how effective he is. How all of a sudden Cleveland has been hanging in games vs top teams, how he has been elevating his game for the 4th quarters.


I'm not trying to advocate him as the best PG in the league, but I also don't need stats to tell me what is fairly obvious when you watch him play. He's 20 years old on a team with no other scoring options, I'm not expecting him to be the most effecient player in the league.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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Besides Tony Parker, every other NBA championship team usually has PGs who dont score. At least, since 2000's that is. Possibly longer back but I wasn't too big into NBA then.

Personally, I believe each championship team has a few elements for them to be successful. While easy as it sounds, most teams go against the grain.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
-Kemba Walker has a better assist/TO ratio aka more assists and less turnovers, and he plays with an abortion of a supporting cast so that kind of makes your point moot
-Chris Paul had no supporting cast with the Hornets and consistently produced, so it's kind of irrelevant. Good playmakers can succeed regardless, Kyrie isn't one in terms of creating for others.

I never said point guards are only supposed to pass, they're generally supposed to be good passers because they're the main ballhandlers on the team and if they aren't, the team will pretty much suck ass unless they have another dominant ball handler. Kyrie is a low assist/high turnover guy for a PG who doesn't score very efficiently for the number of shots he takes. It's not that hard of a concept.
Chris Paul had David West and Tyson Chandler, along with Peja who can actually competently (understatement) shoot 3's. Chandler was good for one easy lob assist per game, and David West can finish.

Come on, son.

Again, he's not Chris Paul in terms of distributing, but stop acting like Kyrie is playing with anything close to what Chris Paul had.

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Old 02-22-2013, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by zachsaints52 View Post
Besides Tony Parker, every other NBA championship team usually has PGs who dont score. At least, since 2000's that is. Possibly longer back but I wasn't too big into NBA then.

Personally, I believe each championship team has a few elements for them to be successful. While easy as it sounds, most teams go against the grain.
Chauncey was the 2nd leading scorer, and clutch time scorer, for the Pistons.

LeBron is the one carrying the ball up 99% of the time in any important situation, so he is pretty much classified as a point guard.

The real common thread in all the championship teams is talent. Other than the Pistons in 04, every team has at least 2 hall of famers.

2000, 2001, 2002 - Kobe and Shaq
2003, 2005, 2007 - Duncan, Parker
2004 - Maybe not 2, but they were the ultimate "team". Ben Wallace best defender in the game, then Billups / Rip Hamilton / Sheed in their prime, with a great defensive Prince.
2006 - Wade, Last good year of Shaq
2008 - Pierce, Allen, KG
2009, 2010 - Kobe, Pau (Not quite hall of fame, but still was a top 2 center at the time)
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
wat.
Ben Gordon is so much better on offense than TT. He's a MUCH better scorer. TT's a good young player out of position. And MKG is a useful scorer, stop with that nonsense. He's a good young player and better than anything Kyrie is working with.

There's comparisons and there's saying "KYRIE'S NOT ELITE BECAUSE HE'S NOT CP3". stop. they're difference players. CP3 is one of the best PG's to play the game. Kyrie's of a different mold. Oh, and it's what? His 2nd player in the league on a dog **** team. Sorry his numbers aren't to your liking

Bropez is an ok passer, nothing great but stop it. He would get doubled and tripled because he had NOBODY to pass to. That's my point. When you're the only scorer on the team, only one with talent you have to force up shots.

And no, the "do it yourself" thing isn't ******** in the least. It's how basketball ******* works. If you're great ala Lebron, ok, maybe it's not ********. But sorry not everyone can be the best player in the league. It's honestly simple basketball you can tell that by watching it, it's obvious. It's how basketball is and works. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

I know you're enamored by your statsheet and what not, and I'm with you on quite a few arguments, but you're way off on this one. Kyrie's a special talent, player and scorer. Your Kyrie hate is just off on this one
-Bropez might have been doubled but he's so bad at passing out of any double team that it helped point out his serious weaknesses. He's not an OK passer, he's well below average for a player with his skill set (aka bad rebounder, solidish scorer for a center).
-Gordon is a massive chucker and a guy who hates playing with Charlotte/his coach, he's completely useless for Kemba
-I LOVE MKG and think he'll be the third best player in this class after Davis/Dre, but he's not exactly much of a scoring threat right now. You're seriously underrating how much Tristan has improved the last several months.
-I'm well aware of the burden being the main guy causes, but it doesn't instantly transform you into a turnover machine that can't create for your teammates, regardless of how poor they are. Again, I don't hate Kyrie. He's good, and his long range game is lethal. His flaws hold him back from being as good as he is perceived.

I do watch games people, more than most here even. I see his long range skills all the time, and I also see how bad he is at attacking the basket and defensively, while having issues being a facilitator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draftguru151 View Post
Even if he was a SG, having his stats as the primary ball handler is average at best. Brody's argument for everything is basically efficiency at multiple parts of the game, which is something Kyrie doesn't have. We're talking about completely subjective rankings, saying he's dumb for judging a player by what he sees fit is dumber than saying getting to the line isn't a skill.

Also love scumbag metsox. Discredits getting to the like for weeks, attacks people for saying he discredits getting to the line.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Ugh nevermind.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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I'm not going to contribute to the Irving debate because I agree with points on both sides of the argument so **** it there's really nothing further to add. It's weird that his numbers around the rim are below average when he displays really good finishing ability. Perhaps a bit of it is his sorry ass endurance.

Brody to be honest I actually think you're complimentary of Irving. You see his talent and potential, not really anything else to ask of you at this point in his career since he has plenty to clean up on.


I'm just glad other people see Tristan Thompson's improvement :D He's no Faried but he's showing signs of competency on offense.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Lillard will definitely be atleast the third best player in this class. Anyone who says otherwise is WRONG!
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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i mean, i agree with snowflake to an extent and i'm not out here calling Kyrie the bestest PG evar, but I think there are certainly circumstances that will skew stats. I don't think Kyrie's ability to score can really be questioned. It's also obvious he's not a CP3 facilitator, hell he's not a Ty Lawson facilitator, but he's a young scoring PG. I do enjoy Tristan Thompson, but in terms of offensive talent, I'm putting Gordon ahead of him. Along with MKG's threat over anyone else on the cavs that Kyrie could pass to. I think Kyrie could really develop into an Allen Iverson type player. Filthy handles, scoring ability, but scrutinized for his lack of assists and high turnover rates. Kyrie's a 2nd year player with not much help and putting up some gaudy scoring numbers (no matter how inefficient but it's not like he's JR Smith chucker)

And it's impossible to compare Faried and Kyrie, they're different positions and do different things differently. Faried's an incredible rebounder and defender and is so crucial to Denvers success (and I ******* love me some Faried). Meanwhile, Kyrie CARRIES the cavs on his back offensively/scoring wise.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AHungryWalrus View Post
Chris Paul had David West and Tyson Chandler, along with Peja who can actually competently (understatement) shoot 3's. Chandler was good for one easy lob assist per game, and David West can finish.

Come on, son.

Again, he's not Chris Paul in terms of distributing, but stop acting like Kyrie is playing with anything close to what Chris Paul had.
He had David West, who had done NOTHING prior to Paul, in his first year. Outside of that, he had Speedy Claxton and Desmond Mason. Not exactly high class. I'm just saying, he was compared to Chris Paul coming out but I don't see him ever being as good as Paul is. If he can improve his inside game and get to the line more over the next several years (which he absolutely can do), he'll be more like a mini Durant.

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Originally Posted by AHungryWalrus View Post
Chauncey was the 2nd leading scorer, and clutch time scorer, for the Pistons.

LeBron is the one carrying the ball up 99% of the time in any important situation, so he is pretty much classified as a point guard.

The real common thread in all the championship teams is talent. Other than the Pistons in 04, every team has at least 2 hall of famers.

2000, 2001, 2002 - Kobe and Shaq
2003, 2005, 2007 - Duncan, Parker
2004 - Maybe not 2, but they were the ultimate "team". Ben Wallace best defender in the game, then Billups / Rip Hamilton / Sheed in their prime, with a great defensive Prince.
2006 - Wade, Last good year of Shaq
2008 - Pierce, Allen, KG
2009, 2010 - Kobe, Pau (Not quite hall of fame, but still was a top 2 center at the time)
Big Ben and Chauncey are both hall of famers. Chauncey slowly became one of the better and more controlled point guards when it comes to assists to turnovers over the course of his career, so I do think he qualifies as that kind of guard.

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Lillard will definitely be atleast the third best player in this class. Anyone who says otherwise is WRONG!
I really don't think Lillard is THAT good.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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i mean, i agree with snowflake to an extent and i'm not out here calling Kyrie the bestest PG evar, but I think there are certainly circumstances that will skew stats. I don't think Kyrie's ability to score can really be questioned. It's also obvious he's not a CP3 facilitator, hell he's not a Ty Lawson facilitator, but he's a young scoring PG. I do enjoy Tristan Thompson, but in terms of offensive talent, I'm putting Gordon ahead of him. Along with MKG's threat over anyone else on the cavs that Kyrie could pass to. I think Kyrie could really develop into an Allen Iverson type player. Filthy handles, scoring ability, but scrutinized for his lack of assists and high turnover rates. Kyrie's a 2nd year player with not much help and putting up some gaudy scoring numbers (no matter how inefficient but it's not like he's JR Smith chucker)

And it's impossible to compare Faried and Kyrie, they're different positions and do different things differently. Faried's an incredible rebounder and defender and is so crucial to Denvers success (and I ******* love me some Faried). Meanwhile, Kyrie CARRIES the cavs on his back offensively/scoring wise.
Faired actually isn't all that good of a defender at all. Kyrie is the better player and it isn't close. James Harden is clearly better than both. Kyrie isn't elite yet, but he is on the cusp of being a top 5 pg and will probably make that next step sometime in the next couple of years considering his age and ability. There, I just solved the past 3 pages.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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There, Rob wins.

This thread is now MWP breaking up toy gun fights in his cookie monster pajamas.

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Old 02-22-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Faired actually isn't all that good of a defender at all. Kyrie is the better player and it isn't close. James Harden is clearly better than both. Kyrie isn't elite yet, but he is on the cusp of being a top 5 pg and will probably make that next step sometime in the next couple of years considering his age and ability. There, I just solved the past 3 pages.
There was a debate comparing a PG, SG and a PF for the past 3 pages? What the ****?
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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There, now this thread is back to being good. More talk about how amazing the Heat are.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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I prefer these views

actually the Pacers are the best
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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He had David West, who had done NOTHING prior to Paul, in his first year. Outside of that, he had Speedy Claxton and Desmond Mason. Not exactly high class. I'm just saying, he was compared to Chris Paul coming out but I don't see him ever being as good as Paul is. If he can improve his inside game and get to the line more over the next several years (which he absolutely can do), he'll be more like a mini Durant.


.
I don't know WHO was comparing him to Paul as a player, or as a prospect, but he never should have been. Kyrie has been a score first guy the whole time, and I never would have put him in the same class as Paul.

I love Kyrie, clearly, but Paul will be a top 5 all time PG, when it's all said and done.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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I love you Commie.
Perfectly understandable, but what for this time?!
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Chris Paul is really under appreciated. If the dude gets a title, he has to be right in the race for as high as 2nd best PG of all time.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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How come you guys never talk about how Marc Gasol is? 7'1, good rebounder, good defender, amazing passer, rotund cheeks, long sexy legs, and a dreamy beard... all the qualitys of a fantastic white NBA center.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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How come you guys never talk about how Marc Gasol is? 7'1, good rebounder, good defender, amazing passer, rotund cheeks, long sexy legs, and a dreamy beard... all the qualitys of a fantastic white NBA center.
He's no Greg Ostertag.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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How come you guys never talk about how Marc Gasol is? 7'1, good rebounder, good defender, amazing passer, rotund cheeks, long sexy legs, and a dreamy beard... all the qualitys of a fantastic white NBA center.
He's a good, solid above average center.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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He's a good, solid above average center.
He's better than that, at least in the center-barren current climate. He's a legit DPOTY candidate and is pretty damn smooth on offense.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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Scotty, tell Keith Bogans to chill!
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Raps > Knicks
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