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Old 02-22-2013, 01:11 PM    (permalink
Raiderz4Life
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Originally Posted by Robcards View Post
And history shows that teams that draft based on need are the most successful ones, oh wait.

Seriously, if I'm a Chiefs fan I would be absolutely irate with them lighting a match to the #1 overall pick with a QB. BPA drafting is the proven way to success, not reaching based on need.
You're not completely right either. It's a balance of both. It all depends on the team's big board and their needs. If 2 players are rater similarly, even if one is rated slightly higher why take him if he's of no need? You take the one that fills a need and is rated slightly lower. The ratings vary from team to team.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:25 PM    (permalink
Robcards
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Originally Posted by Raiderz4Life View Post
You're not completely right either. It's a balance of both. It all depends on the team's big board and their needs. If 2 players are rater similarly, even if one is rated slightly higher why take him if he's of no need? You take the one that fills a need and is rated slightly lower. The ratings vary from team to team.
What he's talking about is taking someone whos the 20-25th best prospect because his position is the biggest need. Not what you're referring to. I agree with you, I'm not going to take the BPA blindly if he isn't a scheme fit or if his position already has 20mil in cap space towards it.

For instance, if it turns out someone like Bjoern Werner is the BPA when the evaluation process is done, I wouldn't take him as the Chiefs as he isn't a good scheme fit for a 3-4 team and they already have 2 solid edge rushers in Hali and Houston.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
No, Reid was saying there were two QBs on the Chiefs roster he feels he can win with.
Well...technically, he may be half right. I really only think there is one QB on the roster he could "potentially" win games with. Cassel. "Games", being the key word here. I just don't think Cassel is a QB that's going to win Reid any "significant" games. Sure Cassel can win you some regular season games if he has very good coaching and the pieces around him are good (i.e. what he had in 2010 with Charlie Weis and company). Otherwise, Cassel is a J.A.G. (Just a Guy). The last regime that hitched their wagons to Cassel got fired. Just saying.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by King Carls 5 Year Plan View Post
scared money does lose money. Arrowhead is EMPTY! revenue is going down each and every year because the fans are sick of it. why support a team that isn't willing to support itself? KC is a football town. the Chiefs rule everything, but Clarks pockets will feel it if he decides to let another Franchise QB go by us in the draft.
he's losing parking revenue or whatever but all 32 teams get an equal slice of 10+ billion dollars in tv contracts and they even split merch pretty evenly.

You don't have to win in the NFL to make money. it's basically a pure communism.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChiFan24 View Post
I don't remember saying herp derp. It's called scouting dude. I might not be good at it, but if you're gonna demand scientific reasoning for my opinion on a prospect, you probably shouldn't be on an NFL draft board.

And yeah, Albert is good. He's also what, 28? I'll take the 21 year old going forward. Odds are that he has a lot more good football in his future.

Not to mention, the financial aspect/years of team control is the important reason Joeckel > Albert in this line of thinking. I don't love the idea of investing heavily in a LT, but if you're gonna do it, I'd rather use the #1 pick on one in a year with no QB than hand a giant contract to a LT that will be 29 next season. Speaking on the Bears behalf, I wouldn't want to give Albert that contract.
Money shouldn't be a reason for letting Albert walk just to sign a cheaper Joeckel. The Chiefs, currently, have about $15 million in cap space. They can double that by parting ways with Tyson Jackson and Matt Cassel. If the Chiefs let Albert go, money should NOT be the excuse. Because they have plenty of it to pay Albert with.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by KaneMarko View Post
Money shouldn't be a reason for letting Albert walk just to sign a cheaper Joeckel. The Chiefs, currently, have about $15 million in cap space. They can double that by parting ways with Tyson Jackson and Matt Cassel. If the Chiefs let Albert go, money should NOT be the excuse. Because they have plenty of it to pay Albert with.
Coincidentally, the cost for tagging Albert would be $15mil. That gives the Chiefs more than enough motive to move on and take Joeckel =)
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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I'd get soo excited for a sidegrade at LT! That's what the #1 pick should do for your team! Bring on Joeckel!
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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I'd get soo excited for a sidegrade at LT! That's what the #1 pick should do for your team! Bring on Joeckel!
Joeckel can potentially be better than Albert, doesn't have the back issues, is 7 years younger, and would save the Chiefs 15 mil in cap space. That's not what I'd call a sidegrade, that's pretty substantial.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
If you're talking money, you also have to factor Stephenson into the equation. He's a high-potential LT, who was drafted lower because he was raw, that showed he can start in the NFL. How much better is your team with Joeckel than Stephenson in the long-run? Even if Stephenson ends up only being average and Joeckel is some amazing LT, the difference isn't that huge.

It's nice to have an uber OL, but that's not going to help this team at all. This team has a good-to-very good OL already. Their problem is the offensive system and getting a QB that can get the ball to receivers who can catch it.

I think the Chiefs are in decent shape at WR with McCluster in the slot and Bowe on the outside. I'll hold off judgement on Baldwin because I just don't think they used him the right way last year (they also just stopped coaching him once Bowe arrived at camp -- Siriani was way overmatched for that gig). But you can't rely on fixing or developing Baldwin for the other outside WR spot. I like Wylie's potential as another slot receiver, too. They need someone else on the outside and they definitely need a TE.
That. Even with all the injuries and shuffling around the Chiefs did on the offensive line this year they still blocked for a 1500 yard running back. And the QBs, way more often than not, got time to make throws. The offensive line, in general, is a good one with some very young potential. Only 3 of the 5 starters have more than 3 years experience. Albert has 5. The other with more than that is Eric Winston who I believe is right at 30 years old (give or take)

So I agree. It's nice to have that great LT. But what has having that great LT done for Cleveland? Or the Phins when Jake Long was considered one of the top LTs in the league? The Chiefs have a good LT already in house if they decide to keep him. No, he's not Joe Thomas. But the young man allowed 1 sack this year on a team, now this is important, that did not hold a lead in any game until the season was half over. Meaning they were always climbing uphill. That has to count for something.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Joeckel can potentially be better than Albert, doesn't have the back issues, is 7 years younger, and would save the Chiefs 15 mil in cap space. That's not what I'd call a sidegrade, that's pretty substantial.
Ugh, this again. Can you tell me why you think Joeckel can be better than Albert, or is this another instance of some guy spewing this without giving a reason for it?

And Albert hurt his back, he doesn't have back issues. I'll give you the age, because there is no disputing that, and he'd be more expensive, but he's also proven.

This is a sidegrade at best. Joeckel does not make us a better team. He's younger and cheaper, but the Chiefs are not a better football team with Joeckel starting at LT over Albert.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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Ugh, this again. Can you tell me why you think Joeckel can be better than Albert, or is this another instance of some guy spewing this without giving a reason for it?
It's called potential. The guy is 21 years old and is the consensus best player in this draft class. He still has yet to hit his prime, can benefit from NFL coaching, developing mentally and physically, I mean you're on a draft forum do I really need to explain these things? Players get better. Players have invisible ceilings and Joeckel's is high. I really don't know what else you want me to say other than I went into the future and Joeckel was a top 5 tackle, I mean no one can know that, which is why I said Joeckel COULD POTENTIALLY be better than Albert.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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It's called potential. The guy is 21 years old and is the consensus best player in this draft class. He still has yet to hit his prime, can benefit from NFL coaching, developing mentally and physically, I mean you're on a draft forum do I really need to explain these things? Players get better. Players have invisible ceilings and Joeckel's is high. I really don't know what else you want me to say other than I went into the future and Joeckel was a top 5 tackle, I mean no one can know that, which is why I said Joeckel COULD POTENTIALLY be better than Albert.
You didn't answer the question. It just isn't about Joeckel either.

If you're going to say you think someone can be better than someone else, you should have a reason besides "dur he's younger".. so what? What, in Joeckels game, makes you believe he will be better than Albert?

I'm legitimately asking, because no one seems to want to answer. If your answer is "It's a gut feeling I have" then that is SOMETHING. Instead of attacking the question, which by the way, is VERY valid to ask on this board, you should try, I don't know, answering it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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You didn't answer the question. It just isn't about Joeckel either.

If you're going to say you think someone can be better than someone else, you should have a reason besides "dur he's younger".. so what? What, in Joeckels game, makes you believe he will be better than Albert?

I'm legitimately asking, because no one seems to want to answer. If your answer is "It's a gut feeling I have" then that is SOMETHING. Instead of attacking the question, which by the way, is VERY valid to ask on this board, you should try, I don't know, answering it.
I didn't say he will be better in 2013 did I? So how would I possibly be able to cite exact aspects of his CURRENT game and tape and what have you? I simply said being a 21 year old blue chip prospect he has the potential to be better than Albert. Are you really this dense?
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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I didn't say he will be better in 2013 did I? So how would I possibly be able to cite exact aspects of his CURRENT game and tape and what have you? I simply said being a 21 year old blue chip prospect he has the potentially to be better than Albert. Are you really this dense?
Are you?

I asked a simple question. You have yet to answer it. First you deflected and chose to ignore it, and now you're onto personal attacks.

If you're going to open your mouth you should back up your opinions. And no, "hes young and good I swear!" is not backing up your opinion. It's amazing that I have to explain this.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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Are you?

I asked a simple question. You have yet to answer it. First you deflected and chose to ignore it, and now you're onto personal attacks.

If you're going to open your mouth you should back up your opinions. And no, "hes young and good I swear!" is not backing up your opinion. It's amazing that I have to explain this.
My words, verbatim, were:

HE CAN POTENTIALLY BE BETTER THAN ALBERT

Please, re-read that sentence, and look at everything you are saying, and take a deep breath.

I never once said that Joeckel is better than Albert NOW. I never once said that Joeckel WILL BE better than Albert. I never once said Joeckel WILL DEFINITELY get better.

I said CAN POTENTIALLY be better than Albert.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Relax.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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so uhm, who's Luke gonna protect? Cassel? Smith? Bray? Me?
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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Im not saying Geno is definately Brady Quinn. You are comparing him to Matt Ryan that's also possible but neither is a definite outcome.

Like Brady, Geno thinks he's in the convo for 1 overall (even tho most sources have him ranked in the teens) and like Brady he skipped the Senior Bowl to minimize exposure. Good players should want to show off their wares. It irks me when Seniors with something to prove skip the Senior Bowl. After that Syracuse embarrassment, why not take an opportunity to prove himself?

As for Jake Long vs Matt Ryan, they actually were both good picks, by the standard of the draft. If you take a guy and he goes to 4 pro bowls in his first 5 years (with 1 All pro selection) it was a fine pick. Remember some picks are absolutely worthless (like Brady quinn for example). By the standards of the draft both were good picks. Whoever picked Jake Long (Parcells/Ireland) can feel good about that pick. It panned out and so did Matt Ryan. I don't believe it's such a huge regret to take a 4x Pro Bowler in rd 1. There are much worse regrets historically.
Each will have their opinion. Personally, as a Chiefs fan, it's little comfort knowing the Chiefs had 6 pro-bowlers this year but were still 2-14. Yes, the pro-bowl is an acknowledgement of great play. But all it earns them is entrance into a game that really doesn't mean anything.

Not trying to be difficult but, even if it were hindsight, give me Matt Ryan's success with with the Falcons over Jake Long's success (and I was a HUGE Jake Long fan that year). It's great that Jake Long has impressive individual accomplishments. But, for me, those fall far down the order of priorities to seeing my team with post season appearances and success. At least Falcons fans had the hope of going to the playoffs every year. The Dolphins, even with Jake Long, didn't. Same can be said for Joe Thomas.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Robcards View Post
My words, verbatim, were:

HE CAN POTENTIALLY BE BETTER THAN ALBERT

Please, re-read that sentence, and look at everything you are saying, and take a deep breath.

I never once said that Joeckel is better than Albert NOW. I never once said that Joeckel WILL BE better than Albert. I never once said Joeckel WILL DEFINITELY get better.

I said CAN POTENTIALLY be better than Albert.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Relax.
Wow. Okay. I'll try this again.

What about his game makes you think he can POTENTIALLY be better than Albert in the future? What about him as a prospect makes you believe that? I've literally asked you this question three times now. I'm going to assume at this point that you're either a) unable to grasp the VERY SIMPLE question I'm trying to ask you, or b) are unable to answer it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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If Albert is not re-signed then it's a legitimate discussion to have if Eric Fisher or Luke Joeckel might be the first overall pick. Until that point, it's useless to debate about.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:26 PM    (permalink
vidae
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
so uhm, who's Luke gonna protect? Cassel? Smith? Bray? Me?
I'd rather see you back there than Cassel or Quinn, but that's mostly because I think your ass will pop in the uniform pants.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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If Albert is not re-signed then it's a legitimate discussion to have if Eric Fisher or Luke Joeckel might be the first overall pick. Until that point, it's useless to debate about.
I've said it for a while now that if Albert walks, Joeckel is likely the pick. Or at least OT in general.

I just can't get anyone to answer a simple question on a board that is dedicated to watching draft prospects. I'm obviously not talking about you, I'm talking about a few others.

But you're right, it is a useless conversation at this point.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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I've said it for a while now that if Albert walks, Joeckel is likely the pick. Or at least OT in general.

I just can't get anyone to answer a simple question on a board that is dedicated to watching draft prospects. I'm obviously not talking about you, I'm talking about a few others.

But you're right, it is a useless conversation at this point.
It might be useless even if Albert walks because the team might be willing to throw a guy with potential and comes at a much lower price tag out there in the form of Donald Stephenson.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Wow. Okay. I'll try this again.

What about his game makes you think he can POTENTIALLY be better than Albert in the future? What about him as a prospect makes you believe that? I've literally asked you this question three times now. I'm going to assume at this point that you're either a) unable to grasp the VERY SIMPLE question I'm trying to ask you, or b) are unable to answer it.
The fact that he is 21 and still has yet to hit his prime wasn't enough? Go dunk your head in water, seriously. You blow so much smoke its ridiculous.

How could aspects of his CURRENT game matter at all when my statement was that he could potentially be better than Albert in the FUTURE?
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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It might be useless even if Albert walks because the team might be willing to throw a guy with potential and comes at a much lower price tag out there in the form of Donald Stephenson.
Donald Stephenson wasn't GREAT when he played last year, but he looked solid. He really needs to work on footwork (that was the biggest knock I saw with him last year) but I think he could start in this league. Everyone knew at the time he was selected that he'd be a project, but he has some game.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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The fact that he is 21 and still has yet to hit his prime wasn't enough? Go dunk your head in water, seriously. You blow so much smoke its ridiculous.
Herp derp, he's younger, so he has more potential. Herp derp. Thanks for playing.
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