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Old 02-18-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Warmack is good, but I'm not sure the drop off from him to someone who will be available at the top of round 2 (Travis Frederick, Larry Warford) is that dramatic. Hell, there was just a great article about how Ducasse and Slauson were essentially equivalent in terms of how the offense produced when they were on the field. If they re-sign Moore to a similar deal to what Pouha got last year and roll with Ducasse at LG it's not even a need. I also tend to think the draft will go more similarly to prior years. Guards don't go top 10. DeCastro was supposed to be the best guard in years and went in the twenties. Plus some may like Cooper better than Warmack. I just don't see a guard going top 10 and immediately making elite guard money. We'll see though.

Moore I think I'd like. When we start to get into everyone else, I have concerns. I think this is a class of pass rushers where a ton of guys have flaws, most are good and have good upside but there aren't a lot of elite pass rushes - they're getting pushed up by the lack of high end talent in this draft and the demand for pass rushers in the league.

As far as Holmes goes, it's mostly dead money but not all and they'd save around a million cutting him. Not sure if they want him on the team to influence younger players. It's highly doable though. And my point about building a longer-term team still stands.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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Pick 9 is what? 4 years 12 mil or so? That's not really elite guard money. I don't think anyone likes cooper more than warmack. The drop off from warmack to every other guard is quite huge from what I've read. But then again the drop off of the top 3 rush linebackers (Moore jones and Mingo) to the ones that will be left when the jets pick again is huge as well so IMO they have to take OLB in the first unless somehow all 3 are gone at 9 which I don't see happening.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:04 AM    (permalink
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Pick 9 is what? 4 years 12 mil or so? That's not really elite guard money. I don't think anyone likes cooper more than warmack. The drop off from warmack to every other guard is quite huge from what I've read. But then again the drop off of the top 3 rush linebackers (Moore jones and Mingo) to the ones that will be left when the jets pick again is huge as well so IMO they have to take OLB in the first unless somehow all 3 are gone at 9 which I don't see happening.
I don't know if you're citing "professionals" only, but I like Cooper more than Warmack. Watching them play, I don't really understand what all the fuss is about Warmack. He's good, but not great. I would also disagree on who the top 3 rush linebackers are, but to each his own.

Has anyone watched Miguel Maysonet play? He's awfully impressive. He has that Ray Rice/MJD sort of body type that would be perfect for an eventual feature back. Small-school guy, but he was productive and did just fine when he faced big-league teams. Not sure if he hits the hole with explosion - I'll have to compare him to the other runningbacks. But he does have good vision and leg drive. Might be a steal later on in the draft.

I also hear Dee Milliner is having surgery on a torn labrum after the combine. It almost assuredly won't, but if it dropped his stock to the second round, despite the other needs, I would be jumping for joy if we took him.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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IMO, Warmack is the top rated prospect in this year's draft but will fall due to the position he plays. Whoever gets him will have a future HOF OG for the next decade. Alabama ran the ball extremely effectively in the SEC on every team, and Warmack was the main reason why. He completely dominated every DT he faced including many who will start in the NFL.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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If you look at what the top guards in the NFL make, Warmack would step into the league making top 10 guard money if he's drafted at 9. I'm sure it's far from universal as well, but some may like Cooper over Warmack due to scheme fit - they're very different players so it's far from ridiculous to say. So much of the same stuff was said about DeCastro last year too, Warmack may be better and the draft may be weak but that's a half round difference high in the draft and DeCastro didn't step in and dominate either.

I also will get crap for this but I want no part of Jarvis Jones.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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I doubt the Jets go guard in the first. Marty has WCO roots and that doesn't mean big-time OGs.

Plus Idzik has seen first hand that guards can be found later after striking out with Carpenter and Moffitt (so far).

They absolutely need to come away with pass rusher and there are enough available to take one at 9. If not, I'd be shocked if they didn't take one in the 2nd.

Remember, Idzik saw Seattle trade down or at least attempt to every single year there. And if there's a team that needs to trade down, it's this year's Jets. If they absolutely love Moore, Jordan or Ansah is there, then maybe they pull the trigger, but I could see them moving down to maybe No. 13 (where maybe TB wants to move up for Milliner) adding a pick or two, and still nabbing a pass rusher (maybe even Mingo) later in the first.

The Jets depth after trading up so much was always so lacking. After his time in Seattle and from what I've heard from him, Idzik is going to bring the competition aspect to the team which can only be good for depth.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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If you look at what the top guards in the NFL make, Warmack would step into the league making top 10 guard money if he's drafted at 9. I'm sure it's far from universal as well, but some may like Cooper over Warmack due to scheme fit - they're very different players so it's far from ridiculous to say. So much of the same stuff was said about DeCastro last year too, Warmack may be better and the draft may be weak but that's a half round difference high in the draft and DeCastro didn't step in and dominate either.

I also will get crap for this but I want no part of Jarvis Jones.
DeCastro actually was hurt his rookie season. He'll get his chance next year.

I completely agree about Jones. I didn't see what was so special before, but after the rumors about his practice habits (or lack thereof) and him skipping out on the combine, as well as what I see in interviews, not to mention the medical history, I just think there is a Manti-Teo's-girlfriend-sized red flag on him.

And a lot of good posts there. I think drafting a play-maker early on at a pivotal position would be far more beneficial to us than what a Guard may bring, considering our lack of game-breaking skill position players. That being said, RB, WR, and OLB happen to be particularly deep in this draft (I'm hesitant on how many of the OLBs will be successful, but there is at least a lot of talent there), so I would not particularly have a problem with us addressing the line first.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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It's been tough to find first round mocks that don't have the Jets taking a Defensive player with pick #9, even with their offensive deficiencies. I feel like I'm being brainwashed that one of these dudes will be our pick:

Dion Jordon
Jarvis Jones
Star Lotulelei
Barkevious Mingo
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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DeCastro actually was hurt his rookie season. He'll get his chance next year.

I completely agree about Jones. I didn't see what was so special before, but after the rumors about his practice habits (or lack thereof) and him skipping out on the combine, as well as what I see in interviews, not to mention the medical history, I just think there is a Manti-Teo's-girlfriend-sized red flag on him.

And a lot of good posts there. I think drafting a play-maker early on at a pivotal position would be far more beneficial to us than what a Guard may bring, considering our lack of game-breaking skill position players. That being said, RB, WR, and OLB happen to be particularly deep in this draft (I'm hesitant on how many of the OLBs will be successful, but there is at least a lot of talent there), so I would not particularly have a problem with us addressing the line first.
On DeCastro, he played a couple preseason games and a few towards the end of the season. Injury didn't help, but he didn't blow anyone away in the beginning of the year or at the end of the season IIRC.

Jones, I don't love on the field. Really, really small for a 3-4 OLB (not sure why this doesn't get mentioned more), looks average athletically, doesn't get off blocks well, lots of his production comes from running by OT's or broken plays/coverage sacks. Definitely made big plays at big moments, but just strikes me as the type who is a better collegian than a pro and doesn't project well to the league. Throw in the injury/risk for a shortened career and the fact that he might have issues bulking up because it's tough to lift because of it although he's really small for a 3-4 OLB and I just don't see it at all. I think he's in for a big slide, but hopefully for him and us he's off the board by 9. I've been wrong before, but I just don't see it.

Positions are really weird this year, there's a lot of talent in the late 1-early 2 range. Getting a guard like Warmack would be nice, but there are other nice talents there. Even moving Fluker to guard is really interesting. And like you said it's not a priority position. I think they're only going to draft 1 guard max this year and it's something that can be addressed later. Personally I'd be fine with them re-signing Moore and going Ducasse/Moore at G unless there's an awesome value they can't pass up. Definitely agree about the depth at WR/RB, on WR though I could see going that way early or not at all since I don't think a #2 is going to do anything for the team. Would imagine they can wait on RB. And I've just got a tough time sorting my way through the OLB class. A good amount of talent but no really super clean prospects. No way they're going TE in the first but I like that class on day 2/early day 3 a lot, would imagine Keller walks since they don't have that much cap room.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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Jones, I don't love on the field. Really, really small for a 3-4 OLB (not sure why this doesn't get mentioned more), looks average athletically, doesn't get off blocks well, lots of his production comes from running by OT's or broken plays/coverage sacks. Definitely made big plays at big moments, but just strikes me as the type who is a better collegian than a pro and doesn't project well to the league. Throw in the injury/risk for a shortened career and the fact that he might have issues bulking up because it's tough to lift because of it although he's really small for a 3-4 OLB and I just don't see it at all. I think he's in for a big slide, but hopefully for him and us he's off the board by 9. I've been wrong before, but I just don't see it.

All great points, and I'm not saying that I want the Jets to make this pick, but the numbers and production don't lie. This guy led the nation in sacks, tackles for a loss, and forced fumbles. Three huge categories, and he missed two games. If they picked him it wouldn't be the worst pick.

And just to throw it out there, if we go defense, I want Star. Having Coples, Wilkerson, and Lotulelei, would make our D-Line young and one of the best in the NFL.

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Old 02-21-2013, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Sack production doesn't tend to mean that much when translating guys to the next level. Plenty of guys have had tons of sacks in college and didn't translate well to the league because of their lack of physical tools and they didn't have Jones' injury red flags. And again, how many 6'2-6'3 240-245 lb 3-4 OLB's do you see in the league? That's tiny for that position. And he's not a freak from a speed or strength perspective. The tape just says average player to me.

As for Star, what about Ellis?
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:51 AM    (permalink
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Doesn't hurt to have a healthy rotation on the line, and Ellis doesn't really have "star" written on his name so it seems (haha get it).

Does everyone believe Star to be a NT in the 3-4? Having watched him, if he were in the 3-4, I feel like he would be better in space as the DE because he's so fast and agile. He never really struck me to have the strength to play NT. But I do know some compare him to Ngata (more or less racist comparisons, to me), who can play NT. He doesn't necessarily have to put up big bench numbers this week, as I don't think Ngata did. But he has to have the right mindset.

We would have a lethal blend of athleticism on the line, but 1st round picks three years in a row there would seem a bit excessive to me. We need help in a lot of places, and I would feel like that might not be the best position to address. I wouldn't hate the pick, but this is a deep DT class, and if they did want to go that route, getting someone like Hughes later on in the draft might be more beneficial?

The first pick, to me, just has to be a top notch player. I don't really care what position it's at. There's plenty of depth in this draft to get play-makers on both sides of the ball at the positions we really need, so that first pick should just be the absolute best player available.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't hurt to have a healthy rotation on the line, and Ellis doesn't really have "star" written on his name so it seems (haha get it).

Does everyone believe Star to be a NT in the 3-4? Having watched him, if he were in the 3-4, I feel like he would be better in space as the DE because he's so fast and agile. He never really struck me to have the strength to play NT. But I do know some compare him to Ngata (more or less racist comparisons, to me), who can play NT. He doesn't necessarily have to put up big bench numbers this week, as I don't think Ngata did. But he has to have the right mindset.

We would have a lethal blend of athleticism on the line, but 1st round picks three years in a row there would seem a bit excessive to me. We need help in a lot of places, and I would feel like that might not be the best position to address. I wouldn't hate the pick, but this is a deep DT class, and if they did want to go that route, getting someone like Hughes later on in the draft might be more beneficial?

The first pick, to me, just has to be a top notch player. I don't really care what position it's at. There's plenty of depth in this draft to get play-makers on both sides of the ball at the positions we really need, so that first pick should just be the absolute best player available.


Star's versatility makes him a strength in the 3-4 or in space as a DE. With Ellis in the mix, they would be able to move him around. Defensive players with versatility has to have Rex salivating. I do think however that he will find his niche on the inside though. His build and strength are perfect for DT, and could anchor the run. I've seen the Ngata comparisons, but I've also seen him compared to Kevin Williams. I'd take either of those any day.

Your thoughts on the 1st pick having to be a top notch player though is tricky. There is no definite top 10. At this point rankings are all over the place. A pick at #9 could easily hold the same value in talent as the #20 pick. This would be a great year to trade down, but I don't how many teams would feel the need to. My hope is the Jets put calls out to the league that pick #9 is up for grabs as the first eight picks unfold. Hopefully a team or two will be excited about what is sitting there, and we take an offer to move down and gain a pick or two. Point is that this is a great year to trade down, but probably one of the most difficult to do so with the depth of 1st round talent.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:54 AM    (permalink
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Star's versatility makes him a strength in the 3-4 or in space as a DE. With Ellis in the mix, they would be able to move him around. Defensive players with versatility has to have Rex salivating. I do think however that he will find his niche on the inside though. His build and strength are perfect for DT, and could anchor the run. I've seen the Ngata comparisons, but I've also seen him compared to Kevin Williams. I'd take either of those any day.

Your thoughts on the 1st pick having to be a top notch player though is tricky. There is no definite top 10. At this point rankings are all over the place. A pick at #9 could easily hold the same value in talent as the #20 pick. This would be a great year to trade down, but I don't how many teams would feel the need to. My hope is the Jets put calls out to the league that pick #9 is up for grabs as the first eight picks unfold. Hopefully a team or two will be excited about what is sitting there, and we take an offer to move down and gain a pick or two. Point is that this is a great year to trade down, but probably one of the most difficult to do so with the depth of 1st round talent.
Yeah, I think most of us agree that we would love a trade down, but do see the problems with making it happen. I don't think it's out of the question, but we might possibly have to get less than true value, or have a very fortunate set of circumstances unfold. However, my point about getting a top talent with our first rounder didn't really have to do with that. Whether we're at #9 or #20, it doesn't make much difference. What I was trying to say was that I would be open to us addressing any position with our first rounder, no matter how much of a need it was (something like C would probably be one of the few bad decisions), as long as we were getting the biggest impact player available.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Can someone explain to me why Star Lotuleilei is being discussed in a Jets draft thread?

1. No way he is there at 9
2. Our front 3 is one of the areas we don't need to draft someone early. Some depth, sure, but not a 1st rounder.

Makes no sense to me why these many words are being wasted on a guy that has little to no chance of becoming a Jet. I'm aware I said the same of Coples pre-draft, but I'm obviously a bigger fan of Mike Devito than the organization was, but they just used 2 1st rounders in a row on DE and both are looking good, and with Pouha and Ellis at NT there's no reason to take another front 3 guy.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Robcards View Post
Can someone explain to me why Star Lotuleilei is being discussed in a Jets draft thread?

1. No way he is there at 9
2. Our front 3 is one of the areas we don't need to draft someone early. Some depth, sure, but not a 1st rounder.

Makes no sense to me why these many words are being wasted on a guy that has little to no chance of becoming a Jet. I'm aware I said the same of Coples pre-draft, but I'm obviously a bigger fan of Mike Devito than the organization was, but they just used 2 1st rounders in a row on DE and both are looking good, and with Pouha and Ellis at NT there's no reason to take another front 3 guy.



No doubt, I agree that there is a good chance Star wont be there. And that this is not the greatest area of need for the Jets. But the draft is a crap shoot, anything can happen, and you really can't rule anyone out. As evidenced by your Coples analysis last year. I brought Star up because he could make a very good unit, outstanding, one of the best in the league for years to come. There are many players I'd like the Jets to target, and with the depth of 1st round talent, I'm still not sure at this point who I'd like them to get the most with pick 9. Personally I'd like the Jets to address the offense first.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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On NFL.com's mock drafts, Tannenbaum has the Jets taking Patterson with the 9th pick. Should I be worried that I would actually like that pick ......... ???
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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On NFL.com's mock drafts, Tannenbaum has the Jets taking Patterson with the 9th pick. Should I be worried that I would actually like that pick ......... ???
Haha. I would say that's a red flag.

Also, Star has a heart condition, so he's probably out of the picture.

Receivers and runningbacks are really showing up at the combine. TONS of speed and explosion from guys that can really play. If we don't come out of this draft with at least one of both RB and WR with both being game-breakers, it will be a loss.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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With the reports of the Chiefs trading for Alex Smith, we may want to do more research on Geno Smith, since that might be our pick. Of course, if people think he's all that good, I wouldn't see why Buffalo wouldn't take him ahead of us.

EDIT: Actually, I should expand that to CLE, ARI, and maybe even PHI, not just BUF.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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Haha. I would say that's a red flag.

Also, Star has a heart condition, so he's probably out of the picture.

Receivers and runningbacks are really showing up at the combine. TONS of speed and explosion from guys that can really play. If we don't come out of this draft with at least one of both RB and WR with both being game-breakers, it will be a loss.


It seems right now that round two is where you are going to want to grab a WR. Guys like Hunter, Patton, Wheaton, Woods, Bailey, Hopkins(probably gone in round one). So Geno pick one, Hunter pick two. Does that get anyone excited about the offense next season?

Side note, Arizona seems to really like Barkley, so maybe they'll pass on Geno. Also, Glennon looked pretty bad today on his throws. His stock seems to be falling.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Well, it's safe to say Damontre Moore is off the board now lol. This has been a very awful combine for him.

Really, I don't trust any of these potential 3-4 OLBs, but considering the athleticism, the production, and the motor, Dion Jordan would probably have to be the only one I'd be interested in at #9.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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I officially hate our pick right now. I've been a huge Damontre Moore fan since last year, but wow he's become a tough guy to root for now with the horrific measurables and interviews.

And so much for Star not being there when we pick, he may make Da'quan Bowers' plummet look like nothing.

Cordarelle was supposed to blow up the combine to solidify himself as a top 10 pick, which he did not do. Honestly I think Tavon Austin may be the #1 WR in the draft now, even considering his height.

I have not been a fan of Dion Jordan at all, I really want to like him as he's a very probable pick for the Jets and would fill a big need... but his tape looks awful. I haven't seen anything in the tape that would indicate that he can be a premier pass rusher, or even a mediocre pass rusher.

Mingo was a disappointment as well.

So who does that leave that I'd actually want with the #9 pick?

1. Trade back. Easier said than done, no one is going to want to trade up and if they do itll be for a day 3 pick at most.
2. Ezekiel Ansah. I'd seriously consider switching to a full-time 46 or 4-3 if this is the pick. I just don't see how Ansah could be a good 3-4 OLB, he has to be a full time rusher. Coples would make a good 4-3 LE as well and Wilkerson and Pouha/Ellis can play DT.
3. Chance Warmack. G is a huge need and he's a stud and is one of the few guys who haven't fallen on his face so he's moved up on the boards by default.
4. Kenny Vaccaro. Same as above, huge need with both our starters on the way out and he hasn't fallen on his face so he's moved up a bit as well.

I may throw up if they take Dion Jordan, a WR, or QB with that pick. (or dare i say, trade up, ugh)
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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I think the only losses in my mind would be if they took a QB or traded up, but I find it hard to believe that they would do either. As far as the other positions go, there are so many explosive athletes up there at the top that even if it wasn't a star, they'd at the very least be improving our speed on one side of the ball.

Personally, if it was my first year on the job in the Big Apple, if I couldn't swing a trade down, I'd just take one of the Guards. Huge risk factors with just about everyone else (well, not RT, but I think that's a far less likely pick).
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:11 AM    (permalink
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Been a huge Bray fan throughout his college career, nice to see him bulk up a bit. Would be ecstatic if we got him in the 2nd
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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This may sound crazy to some people at this point in the draft process but I would love Tavon Austin at #9 overall for the Jets. Trading back a couple of spots and grabbing him would be ideal, but either way I would love adding him to this stale offense. People can question his size all they want and try to figure out a proper NFL comparison for him but in my opinion there isn't anyone quite like him in the league right now (Maybe Percy Harvin but Tavon is different in some areas).

He's the type of play maker this Jets offense has been missing for a while (Come back Brad Smith!). You can line him up all over the field, any time he touches the ball it can go for six, and he's a match up nightmare for any team. There aren't many people you can say that about in the NFL.

Some people might think ninth overall is too high for him but I think well be looking back at this somewhat unusual draft class in a couple of years and mention Tavon Austin as one of the top talents. A few teams are going to fall in love with him throughout this process and I really hope the Jets are one of them. Thoughts?
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