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Old 02-07-2013, 03:04 PM    (permalink
Nastradamus
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
So.....where do we disagree? Read my post carefully.
I think he's a top 10 talent, do you?
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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I'd rate him somewhere around 25-35 and think that is the area he will be drafted in unless he shows elite speed and skill at the combine. Talking about where players will be drafted without knowing how actual speed they have, it a very tough call and that is why the combine decides most prospects with their actual slotting position.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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Hmm, McShay seems high on Vacarro:

#12 Miami Dolphins
Kenny Vaccaro, S, Texas

Dolphins fans would likely prefer to see the team find a solution at left tackle (assuming Jake Long moves on) or a wide receiver who can threaten defenses. However, Vaccaro is one of the 10 best overall prospects in the class. He has the athleticism to hold up well against slot receivers and give Miami the kind of versatile playmaker it needs in the secondary.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:08 AM    (permalink
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Kenny Vaccaro top 5 pick is absurd to me.



This is what a top 5 pick at safety looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O87qfvE3Y9k



Vaccaro is solid, but there is something about him I do not like. One thing that keeps coming up is how awful Texas is on defense over the past few seasons. And if he is this all world safety, why would he not be making more of an impact on the outcome of their overall defensive unit?

Great hitter but sadly there is more to safety than just that. And most great safeties show a variety of great abilities and are usually athletic enough to not only be good tacklers but good in pass coverage and athletic enough to make plays with the ball in their hands after a fumble or an interception.



If anyone should have went top 5 it should have been TJ McDonald, but he did not bring it all together this year and he would be doing good as a 1st round pick anywhere. Had some good games but was not as productive as a cover man as he could or should have been. But talent wise he is as good as anyone at the position but production wise and on the field coverage hurts him, he has not figured it all out yet but could potentially in time on a better defensive unit.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
I think he's a top 10 talent, do you?
I don't, but I don't think you said that in your post.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
Kenny Vaccaro top 5 pick is absurd to me.



This is what a top 5 pick at safety looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O87qfvE3Y9k



Vaccaro is solid, but there is something about him I do not like. One thing that keeps coming up is how awful Texas is on defense over the past few seasons. And if he is this all world safety, why would he not be making more of an impact on the outcome of their overall defensive unit?

Great hitter but sadly there is more to safety than just that. And most great safeties show a variety of great abilities and are usually athletic enough to not only be good tacklers but good in pass coverage and athletic enough to make plays with the ball in their hands after a fumble or an interception.



If anyone should have went top 5 it should have been TJ McDonald, but he did not bring it all together this year and he would be doing good as a 1st round pick anywhere. Had some good games but was not as productive as a cover man as he could or should have been. But talent wise he is as good as anyone at the position but production wise and on the field coverage hurts him, he has not figured it all out yet but could potentially in time on a better defensive unit.
I agreed with this post all the way up until the mention of McDonald. I thought he was overrated before this year. I wouldn't be surprised if Cyprien turns out to be the best S in this draft, in fact, that's what I expect.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:14 AM    (permalink
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Just came across this thread. Found a lot of the answers interesting. I'm bored as **** so figured I'd take a crack at it with my safety thoughts.

Surprised on the love given to Eric Reid. Takes the worst angles of any of the potential early round safety prospects. I just finished watching LSU vs Texas A&M for the 2nd time and you can honestly see 6 different plays in the first half alone where Reid takes a terrible angle in pursuit. Beyond that, he isn't a FS at the next level. Doesn't have the COD/agility needed to stay with guys in the open field. Will probably be given and opportunity to start but in the end I see him as a someone who's success will be based on scheme and use. Pluses are he plays physical, he can hit and also makes the form tackle. The effort is there, I just think he's going to be relegated to a box type role at the next level if he's going to have an impact. He's an incomplete player.

On TJ McDonald -- as a USC homer, I can tell you this guy isn't worth the time. He'll probably run a good 40, great when considering his size, but it isn't functional speed. He gets broken down in the open field, takes poor angles, and isn't the type of presence in the box that you'd expect from someone his size. He's a big athlete who can run fast in a straight line.. Not to use the obvious comparison but think Taylor Mays. Don't like him at all.

Swearinger flashes but often times allows his teammates to finish plays. He's always around to celebrate but often times you see him watching other guys finish the play, which I don't like. He's got big play potential but he's inconsistent with his physicality and how much he seems to be engaged in the action. I don't like that in safeties. He's got good COD and range.. Has the skillet to be a starter but It's like he doesn't want to get his jersey dirty when you watch him play. Lack of effort is obvious. Could easily end up being his downfall.

Phillip Thomas has more tackles broken on him than tackles made. Also takes poor angles in pursuit. Have heard a lot about him as a mid round gem. Watched 3 games and want to part of him. Similar to Swearinger in that he doesn't want to get his jersey dirty, but he's less physical. At least Swearinger is physical when he wants to be. Thomas is just weak. Very meh prospect for me. I understand people like him as a centerfield type, but under my criteria, if you can't help in the run game and can't tackle, you're worthless. Thomas will also get abused by the new, big, athletic TE's that almost every team is trotting out these days. Only impressive game I could find was against Tulsa -- made a few plays against the run, took the head off a defenseless receiver. That's about it. Completely folds against better competition.

Rambo has the ability to be good. Can cover well (if he wants to) can play the run well (if he wants to). The thing that jumps out is how inconsistent he is from plays to play. He gets lazy, seems disengaged at times. Will take some angles that make you scratch your head and try and tackle a guy around the shoulders. Will come back on the next play and make a form tackle. Likewise in coverage, you'll see him exhibit good range but you can also find plays where he's slow to react and is the primary reason for giving up a play. He's similar to Swearinger to me in that they're both wild cards. They have the skill sets to be good players but will they put in the work? Do they want it? I don't think McDonald, Reid, or Thomas have the potential that Rambo or Swearinger have but I could see Reid ending up as the most serviceable player of those 5 because his effort is above that of Rambo/Swearinger.

Duke Williams -- only able to find 1 game vs Boise State but I like him. Physical, willing hitter, good tackler, takes great angles in pursuit. Seems like he's fine in coverage (good COD/agility) but hard to get a good read after 1 game. Still, I'm able to find more stuff I dislike about Swearinger, McDonald, and Reid & Rambo than I am able to about Williams at this point. Really need to see more but putting him in my #4 slot based on what's available, although admittedly, I'd like to see at least 3-4 games before making any solid judgments on a player.

Cyprien is a boss on the tape available online. I think I'd have to put this guy as my #1. Although he didnt play the slot very often like Vacarro and Elam did, he always seems to be in position in coverage. If the catch is made on him, he's right there to make the tackle. Showed good range on some PB's. great hitter. But I will say there were only 4 games I could find of him. Could have been the best 4 games of his career? I have no idea. But from what I can see, I love. He's physical, aggressive, and never seems to get twisted, turned, or broken down in open space.

I have Elam as my #2 and Vacarro as my #3. I know most would flip flop that based on Elam's lack of size, and thats fine, but I think Elam takes better angles than Vacarro and seems to have some coachable flaws (namely, wrapping up on tackles vs going for the big hit). Again, not to make a comparison based on a player who came from the same program but Elam reminds me a lot of A better version of Major Wright coming out. Both are big hitters, have functional speed and agility giving them the ability to cover, too often didnt go for the safe tackle. Elam has more man cov. experience than Wright did with the amount of time he played in the slot. I really like his potential.

Vacarro has some problems with tackling around the shoulders, which is coachable but a flaw at this point. Takes poor angles. Gets broken down in space, most notable example I've watched recently was against Joseph Randle. He plays the slot well. Has good speed and athleticism. Was maybe trying to do too much on account of his team being bad and could definitely be a player, I just happen to prefer Cyprien & Elam to him.

So all my blabber basically leaves me with this as my 2 cents: 1. Cyprien 2. Elam 3. Vacarro 4. Williams 5. Not sure? Toss up between Swearinger/Reid/Rambo

My top 3 guys are on a level about the rest. I feel fairly confident in that all of them have the ability to start in the league and are scheme diverse. Duke Williams doesn't have enough available tape for me to get an accurate read. Eric Reid needs to be protected and needs to be put in the right situation, but the desire is there. Rambo & Swearinger are wild cards due to questionable effort. I don't think McDonald or Thomas have the skills to play in the league.

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:13 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
Just came across this thread. Found a lot of the answers interesting. I'm bored as **** so figured I'd take a crack at it with my safety thoughts.

Surprised on the love given to Eric Reid. Takes the worst angles of any of the potential early round safety prospects. I just finished watching LSU vs Texas A&M for the 2nd time and you can honestly see 6 different plays in the first half alone where Reid takes a terrible angle in pursuit. Beyond that, he isn't a FS at the next level. Doesn't have the COD/agility needed to stay with guys in the open field. Will probably be given and opportunity to start but in the end I see him as a someone who's success will be based on scheme and use. Pluses are he plays physical, he can hit and also makes the form tackle. The effort is there, I just think he's going to be relegated to a box type role at the next level if he's going to have an impact. He's an incomplete player.

On TJ McDonald -- as a USC homer, I can tell you this guy isn't worth the time. He'll probably run a good 40, great when considering his size, but it isn't functional speed. He gets broken down in the open field, takes poor angles, and isn't the type of presence in the box that you'd expect from someone his size. He's a big athlete who can run fast in a straight line.. Not to use the obvious comparison but think Taylor Mays. Don't like him at all.

Swearinger flashes but often times allows his teammates to finish plays. He's always around to celebrate but often times you see him watching other guys finish the play, which I don't like. He's got big play potential but he's inconsistent with his physicality and how much he seems to be engaged in the action. I don't like that in safeties. He's got good COD and range.. Has the skillet to be a starter but It's like he doesn't want to get his jersey dirty when you watch him play. Lack of effort is obvious. Could easily end up being his downfall.

Phillip Thomas has more tackles broken on him than tackles made. Also takes poor angles in pursuit. Have heard a lot about him as a mid round gem. Watched 3 games and want to part of him. Similar to Swearinger in that he doesn't want to get his jersey dirty, but he's less physical. At least Swearinger is physical when he wants to be. Thomas is just weak. Very meh prospect for me. I understand people like him as a centerfield type, but under my criteria, if you can't help in the run game and can't tackle, you're worthless. Thomas will also get abused by the new, big, athletic TE's that almost every team is trotting out these days. Only impressive game I could find was against Tulsa -- made a few plays against the run, took the head off a defenseless receiver. That's about it. Completely folds against better competition.

Rambo has the ability to be good. Can cover well (if he wants to) can play the run well (if he wants to). The thing that jumps out is how inconsistent he is from plays to play. He gets lazy, seems disengaged at times. Will take some angles that make you scratch your head and try and tackle a guy around the shoulders. Will come back on the next play and make a form tackle. Likewise in coverage, you'll see him exhibit good range but you can also find plays where he's slow to react and is the primary reason for giving up a play. He's similar to Swearinger to me in that they're both wild cards. They have the skill sets to be good players but will they put in the work? Do they want it? I don't think McDonald, Reid, or Thomas have the potential that Rambo or Swearinger have but I could see Reid ending up as the most serviceable player of those 5 because his effort is above that of Rambo/Swearinger.

Duke Williams -- only able to find 1 game vs Boise State but I like him. Physical, willing hitter, good tackler, takes great angles in pursuit. Seems like he's fine in coverage (good COD/agility) but hard to get a good read after 1 game. Still, I'm able to find more stuff I dislike about Swearinger, McDonald, and Reid & Rambo than I am able to about Williams at this point. Really need to see more but putting him in my #4 slot based on what's available, although admittedly, I'd like to see at least 3-4 games before making any solid judgments on a player.

Cyprien is a boss on the tape available online. I think I'd have to put this guy as my #1. Although he didnt play the slot very often like Vacarro and Elam did, he always seems to be in position in coverage. If the catch is made on him, he's right there to make the tackle. Showed good range on some PB's. great hitter. But I will say there were only 4 games I could find of him. Could have been the best 4 games of his career? I have no idea. But from what I can see, I love. He's physical, aggressive, and never seems to get twisted, turned, or broken down in open space.

I have Elam as my #2 and Vacarro as my #3. I know most would flip flop that based on Elam's lack of size, and thats fine, but I think Elam takes better angles than Vacarro and seems to have some coachable flaws (namely, wrapping up on tackles vs going for the big hit). Again, not to make a comparison based on a player who came from the same program but Elam reminds me a lot of A better version of Major Wright coming out. Both are big hitters, have functional speed and agility giving them the ability to cover, too often didnt go for the safe tackle. Elam has more man cov. experience than Wright did with the amount of time he played in the slot. I really like his potential.

Vacarro has some problems with tackling around the shoulders, which is coachable but a flaw at this point. Takes poor angles. Gets broken down in space, most notable example I've watched recently was against Joseph Randle. He plays the slot well. Has good speed and athleticism. Was maybe trying to do too much on account of his team being bad and could definitely be a player, I just happen to prefer Cyprien & Elam to him.

So all my blabber basically leaves me with this as my 2 cents: 1. Cyprien 2. Elam 3. Vacarro 4. Williams 5. Not sure? Toss up between Swearinger/Reid/Rambo

My top 3 guys are on a level about the rest. I feel fairly confident in that all of them have the ability to start in the league and are scheme diverse. Duke Williams doesn't have enough available tape for me to get an accurate read. Eric Reid needs to be protected and needs to be put in the right situation, but the desire is there. Rambo & Swearinger are wild cards due to questionable effort. I don't think McDonald or Thomas have the skills to play in the league.
Elam is solidly built, strong and has long arms.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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4.59 is just not an elite time.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Vaccaro is not going top 5. Good cover safety, nothing special about him though.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Top 5? No.

Based on needs of the top 10 teams, I wouldn't say top 10 either.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Yah, Barron ran a 4.54. Vaccaro's speed if fine for the S position.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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If Mark Barrron can go 7th no reason why Kenny can't.
Mark Barron's tape and ability was superior to Vacarro in every way. So yes, there is a reason why Vacarro can't.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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I think Mark Barron is soooooooooooo much better than vaccaro.

Vaccaro isnt anywhere near the class that Michael Huff and Earl Thomas were. The difference betwen KV and MB is Vaccaro is the top safety in a class that is stacked with safeties that are all over the place in the rankings and no one really emerging as the top guy(s) between Vaccaro, Cyprien, Elam, Reid, Mcdonald, and more....while barron was a nearly-top prospect at safety in a painfully weak safety class.

Barron went 7, but wasnt on the Taylor, Landry, Berry level it was just such a weak class.

This class isnt as weak, theres safeties available and pretty damn good ones just not top 10-15 worthy ones. Id say Vaccaro grades out similar to Harrison Smith more than he did mark barron, but hell...harrison smith had a tremendous rookie year. That being said i wouldnt hate it if the steelers took him at 17 (even though he probably wont slide that far) but i think id prefer elam or amerson in 2
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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Elam is solidly built, strong and has long arms.
Agree, I'm a big Elam fan.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Agree with you on Eric Reid. He's very overrated and way more name than game.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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Agree with you on Eric Reid. He's very overrated and way more name than game.
It's odd because many call him a FS when I think he's clearly more of a SS to me. He doesn't have the COD/range to play single-high and was best used playing in the box.

My problem with him is that when he's coming up from his deep half into the box, he frequently takes poor angles. If he's going to be an SS at the next level, which is all I think he's able to play, he can be taking the angles he does.

He plays better if he's already in the box as more of a rover but that's not a realistic full time position for him in the NFL. He needs to be more versatile than that
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Glad Elam is getting so much hype today on NFLN. Many we're down on him coming into the combine, which I didn't understand.

Mayock keeps comparing him to Donte Whitner, which I can see from a body type perspective, but disagree on ability. IIRC Whitner wasn't playing NB at Ohio State. Elam was frequently brought down to cover the slot and showed pretty good man coverage ability.

When you consider he was covering WR's in college it makes me feel good about his ability to cover TE's in the NFL. The only thing working against him is that he's slightly under 5'10".

If he cleans up his tackling, he can be a good pro.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Elam reminds me of Louis Delmas
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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I think the Whitner comparison for Elam is very fair. He might have had to cover some WR's in college, but a good majority of safeties do that in college. He rarely makes plays in pass coverage, and usually he is good for 1-2 monster hits a game that make you realize the guy is out there. Very similar to Whitner IMO.

Also to add to the discussion earlier - Vaccaro does not come close to Barron.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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I think the Whitner comparison for Elam is very fair. He might have had to cover some WR's in college, but a good majority of safeties do that in college. He rarely makes plays in pass coverage, and usually he is good for 1-2 monster hits a game that make you realize the guy is out there. Very similar to Whitner IMO.

Also to add to the discussion earlier - Vaccaro does not come close to Barron.
I can see that. I would just give higher marks to Elam in coverage and higher marks to Whitner vs the run as prospects. Not considering Whitner as a pro.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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It's odd because many call him a FS when I think he's clearly more of a SS to me. He doesn't have the COD/range to play single-high and was best used playing in the box.

My problem with him is that when he's coming up from his deep half into the box, he frequently takes poor angles. If he's going to be an SS at the next level, which is all I think he's able to play, he can be taking the angles he does.

He plays better if he's already in the box as more of a rover but that's not a realistic full time position for him in the NFL. He needs to be more versatile than that
Came away with the same impression. And in fact I didn't see much in the box that I liked. He made some plays but he was JAG at LSU.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Came away with the same impression. And in fact I didn't see much in the box that I liked. He made some plays but he was JAG at LSU.
Exactly. He often gets caught out of position coming up from his initial starting area because his angles are so bad. It isn't just with running backs either, with receivers that catch underneath/intermediate stuff he'll do the same thing.

Out of all then safety prospects I've watched, I haven't seen any put themselves out of position more frequently than Reid.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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Just went back and watched Vacarro again for the 3rd separate time, convinced that I must be missing something with how high people are on him.

Nothing has changed for me. Poor angles. Over pursuit is a chronic issue. Holds a lot in man coverage, will draw flags in NFL if asked to play slot.

For everyone trying to compare him to Barron. Just stop. Barron took great angles, was rarely caught out of position, and didnt have questions about his deep coverage abilities.

Now I haven't seen Vacarro make many mistakes in deep coverage, but he's rarely used as the single high safety. The majority of his snaps came in the box as SS or slot as NB.

He bites too hard on play action and misdirection.

As far as this thread goes, not only is he not a top 5 player, but he isn't top 10.

I think people are enamored with the speed/size, but it isn't even functional speed at this point. I'd say he's out of control more times than not.

2 games where this is painfully obvious is against Texas Tech & Oaklahoma State. I suggest anyone on the fence go back and watch those to see the deficiencies in play.

I really questioned myself at first because I'm the only person I know that has him #3, but I'm more comfortable with that now than ever.

Would definitely take Cyprien & Elam before Vacarro.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:16 AM    (permalink
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i think after his combine performance, that Shamarko Thomas, Syracuse SS, has to be in the discussion.
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