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Old 03-04-2013, 02:25 PM    (permalink
Macarthur
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
Worth it IMO. Better angles than Vacarro. Better tackler. Great range.

Only thing I would give Vacarro an edge in is versatility because he spent so much time in the slot.
I don't know, man. I just watched both on **************.

Cyp def has better range, but I saw him miss quite a few tackles. He also hasn't played the level of competition Vaccaro has. I still think Vaccaro is better, but I'm not sure he's worth 18. Late 1st is where I think he should be.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
primetime217
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A bit on the small side for SDE.. I hope he's an impact player next year.

This DL is going to be similar to the former Colts line w Freeney & Mathis as smaller DE's that excel rushing the passer but are a bit of a liability against the run.

Luckily this team has better LB's than those teams had so hopefully it works out.
Thats a good point. We definitely do have better LB's then those teams.

I think the fact that Chip Kelly offense coming to the division, and RGIII here for the long term future. We need to build our defense on speed, and Ware and Spencer will bring that to this D.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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I don't know, man. I just watched both on **************.

Cyp def has better range, but I saw him miss quite a few tackles. He also hasn't played the level of competition Vaccaro has. I still think Vaccaro is better, but I'm not sure he's worth 18. Late 1st is where I think he should be.
It's becoming criminal. Cyp wasn't getting any love as being projected as a 4th round he showed well and then performed as expected at the combine and now he's getting top 20 hype? Get outta here.

Vaccaro is the #1 safety in the class and Cyp will get drafted top 40. Keep in mind if we're draft a safety high it's to play the deep half as well. Cyp looks great as a SS but I'm not buying him as a deep-zone ball-hawk. If you watch the tape for FIU when they asked him to play 2-deep he never looked overly comfortable. He's a guy who is meant to be lining up off the line of scrimmage and make plays in the short passing game and running game.

Cyp's tackling is getting overrated here as well. He's consistently hitting high which works really well when you are playing in the Sun Belt but bigger WRs and RBs are going to shake off those hits and keep going.

That being said I actually like Cyp a lot and if we were looking for a SS I would advocate trading down to the late 1st to pick him up. Just don't see him as a fit at FS in the Dallas-2 at all.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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I really thought it was time to move on without Spencer but at least this gives a preview of what the line will look like. It will be interesting to see if the team will still target lineman in the early rounds. The team is high on Johnson whether or not that will dictate where or if we draft a FS is a big question. IMO they are setting themselves up for a pure BPA draft and no position will be out of the question.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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I really thought it was time to move on without Spencer but at least this gives a preview of what the line will look like. It will be interesting to see if the team will still target lineman in the early rounds. The team is high on Johnson whether or not that will dictate where or if we draft a FS is a big question. IMO they are setting themselves up for a pure BPA draft and no position will be out of the question.
Spencer provides us a year to make sure we are fully prepared for the move in the event his contractual demands are too high.

As far as going BPA Garrett has always been a promoter of the filling holes in FA and then moving into the draft with BPA (within reason). Fits the profile and I believe we still have some pocket change to target some veterans at the minimal level.

I wouldn't be surprised with a quick Romo extension or even Spencer extension if we happen to have terms with a free agent we fancy though. Things tend to move a lot quicker when a deadline approaches.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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A bit on the small side for SDE.. I hope he's an impact player next year.

This DL is going to be similar to the former Colts line w Freeney & Mathis as smaller DE's that excel rushing the passer but are a bit of a liability against the run.

Luckily this team has better LB's than those teams had so hopefully it works out.
This is an important point because with Spencer back in the mix we certainly look more like a true Tampa-2 d-line. I'm not buying the Seattle inspiration for this D anymore, because we're going in the opposite direction with an undersized line that will be flying up field. That means we're going to be playing a whole lot of cover-2 in the secondary and our corners have to be ready for the run resposibilities that come with it.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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It's becoming criminal. Cyp wasn't getting any love as being projected as a 4th round he showed well and then performed as expected at the combine and now he's getting top 20 hype? Get outta here.

Vaccaro is the #1 safety in the class and Cyp will get drafted top 40. Keep in mind if we're draft a safety high it's to play the deep half as well. Cyp looks great as a SS but I'm not buying him as a deep-zone ball-hawk. If you watch the tape for FIU when they asked him to play 2-deep he never looked overly comfortable. He's a guy who is meant to be lining up off the line of scrimmage and make plays in the short passing game and running game.

Cyp's tackling is getting overrated here as well. He's consistently hitting high which works really well when you are playing in the Sun Belt but bigger WRs and RBs are going to shake off those hits and keep going.

That being said I actually like Cyp a lot and if we were looking for a SS I would advocate trading down to the late 1st to pick him up. Just don't see him as a fit at FS in the Dallas-2 at all.
He played great against Louisville and was mostly playing as the FS. That just isn't true. He played deep far more than Vacarro

Edit: I also had Cyprien as my #1 ahead of Elam as my #2 before I came back to this board. Had nothing to do with the combine and certainly had nothing to do with the sheeple on here.

What's comical is going into the main draft board and watching how everyone falls in line instead of having their own opinions. It's like they don't wanna upset their Internet friends.

There are very few people on here that trust their eyes over the trends and general consensus and its annoying. It's like watching espn, I'm just watching everyone repeat each other.

I actually hope Cooper gets picked ahead of Warmack and it happens outside of the top 10 because it'll serve as a perfect example for how people get caught up in BS.

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Old 03-04-2013, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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That means we're going to be playing a whole lot of cover-2 in the secondary and our corners have to be ready for the run resposibilities that come with it.
I think the defense is going to resemble the bears defense last year with a good mix of traditional cover two looks and man coverage. I totally agree that the secondary is going to have more emphasis in run support. There was already an article about Claiborne beefing up to handle the extra contact.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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I think the defense is going to resemble the bears defense last year with a good mix of traditional cover two looks and man coverage. I totally agree that the secondary is going to have more emphasis in run support. There was already an article about Claiborne beefing up to handle the extra contact.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b... ris-claiborne
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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I don't know, man. I just watched both on **************.

Cyp def has better range, but I saw him miss quite a few tackles. He also hasn't played the level of competition Vaccaro has. I still think Vaccaro is better, but I'm not sure he's worth 18. Late 1st is where I think he should be.
Meh, Vacarro's level of competition is better but it's not like Texas is playing in the SEC or even PAC12..

I'm just saying, once you get outside of this draft countdown bubble, there are a lot of guys who are beyond us in terms of scouting that have raised serious questions about Vacarro.

I'm talking about ex-scouts and lead analysts for prominent websites, most of which have access to speak with people in the league and the ability to get coaches tape.

A lot of them say Vacarro "scares" them. Poor angles, out of control when attacking the line, poor tackling form, lack of time playing deep even though people want to categorize him as the perfect FS.

Meanwhile, equal mischaracterizations are happening with Cyprien. He's an SS because he's big? It simply isn't true. Cyprien played high in cover-1 more than Vacarro, Elam, or Reid.

Cyprien has more tape showing his ability to get from the center of the field to the sideline than any of the "big name" players

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and clearly there is a heavy sentiment for Vacarro in here but as I've stated all along, he isn't my #1.

For me, it's Cyprien. And it isn't difficult for me to make that distinction. I trust my eyes first, I look to analysts with a track record 2nd, and really just come here to share thoughts.

I've noticed far too often trends are started on this board and everyone falls in line. No one wants to step in the way of the general consensus. I really think the only reason people have Vacarro as their #1 is because that's where he was when people put their initial rankings out. The tape doesn't back that up.

If you watched all the safeties in this years class without knowing who was who, Vacarro would not be #1. In fact, you may not even know he's a true safety considering how much time he spends in the slot on tape
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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This is the undisputed top talent at safety in the draft? Please. There are so many deficiencies in this game alone.

Consistently gets too far up field. Can't get off wide receiver blocks. Plays no cover-1, which everyone keep eluding to as a prerequisite for Sensabaughs replacement. Gets broken down in space. Tackles high allowing runners to bounce off of him. I mean, this is everything people want to criticize in safety prospects and Vacarro is the best example!

You can post any game of Vacarro you want in here and you won't find more than 3-4 plays a game where he is in cover-2 and I doubt you can even find me 3 examples total of him in cover-1

So if you want to defend Vacarro give me some valid reasons. Not "well he's a FS and Cyprien isnt" -- really? Who says? It certainly isn't the tape.

Vacarro has better range -- who says? Not the tape.

Vacarro better vs the run -- not the tape.

It ain't hard to see

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Old 03-04-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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Not going to bother going point by point with you Drewy since you just seem to follow your own path.

One MAJOR correction for you though. FIU plays 2-deep almost exclusively so if you are watching film and see him playing single-high or cover-1 you might want to double down and make sure you understand the scheme.

While enviable your championing of Cyprien he flat out isn't being touted as the top safety in his class for a number of reasons. He isn't an elite athlete. His game tape had his stock at a firm 4th rounder until he played extremely well the week of the Senior Bowl. He will certainly be drafted top 40 and the top SS taken but he is not a top 20 prospect especially if you are asking him to play single-high cover 1.

Every single prospect has deficiencies as well. Cyprien has them as well. Watch him tackle. Every single hit is at the shoulder pads. That results in a ton of blown tackles when you aren't playing in the Sun Belt. His angles are being vastly overrated by you as well. He is consistently aggressive to a fault. He'll over-pursue and leave himself vulnerable to the cut-back. Watch him in deep coverage. Keep an eye on his head. He will be flagged a ton at the next level if he doesn't learn to get his head around when tracking the deep ball.

Cyprien certainly has a highlight tape and is an impressive prospect but he is NOT perfect nor is he a FS capable of playing Cover 1. He is MUCH better when he task him with traditional SS work and let his aggressiveness and R&R take over with the play opening in front of him.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Not going to bother going point by point with you Drewy since you just seem to follow your own path.

One MAJOR correction for you though. FIU plays 2-deep almost exclusively so if you are watching film and see him playing single-high or cover-1 you might want to double down and make sure you understand the scheme.

While enviable your championing of Cyprien he flat out isn't being touted as the top safety in his class for a number of reasons. He isn't an elite athlete. His game tape had his stock at a firm 4th rounder until he played extremely well the week of the Senior Bowl. He will certainly be drafted top 40 and the top SS taken but he is not a top 20 prospect especially if you are asking him to play single-high cover 1.

Every single prospect has deficiencies as well. Cyprien has them as well. Watch him tackle. Every single hit is at the shoulder pads. That results in a ton of blown tackles when you aren't playing in the Sun Belt. His angles are being vastly overrated by you as well. He is consistently aggressive to a fault. He'll over-pursue and leave himself vulnerable to the cut-back. Watch him in deep coverage. Keep an eye on his head. He will be flagged a ton at the next level if he doesn't learn to get his head around when tracking the deep ball.

Cyprien certainly has a highlight tape and is an impressive prospect but he is NOT perfect nor is he a FS capable of playing Cover 1. He is MUCH better when he task him with traditional SS work and let his aggressiveness and R&R take over with the play opening in front of him.


He was being touted as a top 3 prospect well before the senior bowl. I'll find the evidence if you want, but I'd rather let the tape do the talking.

For someone who thinks they understand schemes so well -- tell me what coverage Cyprien is in on the int? Wait -- cover-1?!? It can't be.

On the big hit -- oh my! Cover-1 again! <<Edit: actually may have been cover-2, can't tell for sure. But either way, you won't be able to find me an example of Vacarro doing that.

Get some evidence before you post, rookie.

The reason you can't go toe to toe with me is because the tape don't lie. I have facts, you have rhetoric.

I challenge you to find my even ONE example of Vacarro playing cover-1, exhibiting the type of range Cyprien does. Do that and then we can talk.

Until then, you're just hot air. I've posted real life examples of Cyprien displaying the ability to do what everyone wishes Vacarro could do

FIU plays a mix of cover2 & cover1. Cyprien has so much more experience don't what the Cowboys are going to ask of their safety it isn't even close

So please, PLEASE show me even one example of what makes Vacarro a FS candidate and show me something other than your pointless analysis on why Cyprien can't.

Tape shows Cyprien doing exactly what the safeties will be asked to do for Kiffin. Tape does not show Vacarro doing anything that he will be asked to do for Kiffin. Plain and simple.

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Old 03-04-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Get some evidence before you post, rookie.

The reason you can't go toe to toe with me is because the tape don't lie. I have facts, you have rhetoric.
Oh great. Your one of these guys. Guess it was about that time.



I don't think Spencer is undersized for SDE, I think he fits great there. He's essentially been doing a bunch of this for us the last few years and I think he has a better season then last year. I'd prefer this also vs a long contract that we have to restructure a few years in. We can't always extend our own in house players we need to start doing a better job drafting depth and replacements.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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@ Drewy. You seem very animate that Vacarro isn't top Safety talent. You're stating his tape just doesn't show it. I'd say a large majority of the "experts" out there are saying he's hands down the top Safety in this draft. I respect your opinions and feel you bring a lot of detailed explanations to the table on why you feel you do about certains topics. I guess my point is why are you so down on Vacarro when all the other guys are so high on him. What have you seen that makes you feel this way?
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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@ Drewy. You seem very animate that Vacarro isn't top Safety talent. You're stating his tape just doesn't show it. I'd say a large majority of the "experts" out there are saying he's hands down the top Safety in this draft. I respect your opinions and feel you bring a lot of detailed explanations to the table on why you feel you do about certains topics. I guess my point is why are you so down on Vacarro when all the other guys are so high on him. What have you seen that makes you feel this way?
I'm having to be overly down on him to get my point across. I don't think Vacarro sucks by any means, I think he's a safety with potential that should be taken in the 25-40 range.

I just don't understand WHY he is the top safety prospect? I believe Cyprien, and even Elam, have better tape and have shown better in their collegiate careers.

If you want to sell me on potential and ceiling -- ok. I'd buy the argument that Vacarro has a higher ceiling and more potential than Elam. I'd say he and Cyprien are about equal in terms of potential. So it comes down to the tape for me.

Things that scare me about Vacarro:

-Poor angles, he often comes in too narrow (inside) allowing the ball carrier to have the edge or too wide (outside) allowing the ball carrier to cut up field.

-over aggressive coming towards the line. Vacarro often charges the line recklessly and ends up behind the ball carrier. He runs himself out of the play.

-Tackling. Seems that you can put this on any of the top safety prospects so I won't act like its just Vacarro, but going for hits instead of tackles, and aiming high instead of low

-Range. The rhetoric, in this cowboys room specifically, is that Vacarro is the perfect fit at FS. Why? Where is the evidence? Vacarro spent the majority of his time in the slot and in the box. Vacarro played much more of a SS role than Cyprien did. Cyprien spent the majority of his time in Cover-2/1, playing the zones and positions he'd be asked to play for the Cowboys.

The angles coming toward the line from a traditional safety position are much different than the angles taken from a slot/box position, which is more similar to the angles a linebacker takes.

Lack of experience tracking the ball from deep center of the field or even deep half of the field is alarming. Vacarro was rarely asked to play that way and will be extremely raw playing a traditional safety position.

Positives:

-size/speed. Although his 40 wasn't great, his field speed is when considering his size

-versatility. Playing in the slot has given him a ton of experience to fill a roll covering the new age TE. Will this come into play in Kiffin's defense? I'm not sure. Typically, Kiffin will ask Lee or Carter to match up with TE's if you look at his past defenses but he's stated he will play different schemes, not just pure Tampa-2, so maybe he will ask a safety to come up in the slot.

-toughness. He likes to throw his body around. Doesn't shy away from hits.

-tenacity/effort. Plays through the whistle. Too many safeties in the class let their teammates finish the play. Vacarro consistently gets involved in the action.

Summary: For being the supposed consensus top safety, he lacks experience playing from a traditional safety position. Minimal time in cover-2/1 looks. Lacks experience tracking ball deep. Lacks experience reading/reacting to QB and route combinations from traditional safety role. Spent majority of time playing near the box and in the slot. Runs himself out of position to often and will need to have aggressiveness reined in to be effective. Must react better in space, was caught filling gaps and getting broken down allowing ball carriers to rip off big chunks.


Edit: forgot to add this -- basically if you want to sell me on Vacarro's ceiling and potential based off his athleticism, I will buy it. But don't try and sell me on the idea that he's a better FS than Cyprien just because.

The reality is Cyprien has loads of experience playing an interchangeable true safety role, whereas Vacarro has played a hybrid CB/S role. Cyprien has tape that can be evaluated showing him tracking the ball from deep, reading/reacting to the QB, having to deal with route combinations. With Vacarro, this is all taking place behind him. He's up in the scrum, not back in no mans land.

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Old 03-04-2013, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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The biggest positive for me on taking Vaccaro is his versatility. Injuries can kill a team, and last year was a prime example. With Vaccaro, I believe he can play either safety spot, as well as fill in at the 4th CB spot in a pinch. Also, like Drewy mentioned, he can be asked to line up on the TE in certain packages. I know Elam would come down and cover guys as well in the slot, but don't know if Cyprien did.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Oh great. Your one of these guys. Guess it was about that time.



I don't think Spencer is undersized for SDE, I think he fits great there. He's essentially been doing a bunch of this for us the last few years and I think he has a better season then last year. I'd prefer this also vs a long contract that we have to restructure a few years in. We can't always extend our own in house players we need to start doing a better job drafting depth and replacements.
Dude, I've been on this board since like 2005 or 2006. You know this about me already. I'm one of the 3 Magic/Cowboys fans. I don't roll with a position just because everyone else is. I need to see it.

I'd have to disagree on Spencer though. He isn't critically undersized, but he isn't ideal. I'd prefer my SDE to be about 275-285 with length. Ideally, like 6'6".

Spencer is rather compact and would probably be the WDE if Ware wasnt on the team. I believe Spencer and Ware can be effective, but our DL is definitely going to be undersized.

I'm more worried about Ware vs the run than Spencer to be honest, but not having Ware on the team was never an option. Life without Spencer was.

Again, I said in here the other day I was in favor of the franchise tag. It forces Spencer to play at the highest level for another season and it gives the team time to evaluate him at DE, but a long term deal seems counter productive at this point.

A ton of money will be tied up in Ware, Carr, and Spencer on defense. Romo & Witten on offense.

Dez & Lee will have big deals coming. I believe Hatcher is in the final year of his deal.

A long term deal with Spencer would seem to put the team in a position to build exclusively through the draft with very little flexibility to bring in FA's from outside the team.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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oh man sensy is gone i was wrong about that one

i guess hatcher is goning to be the primary 3 tech too since they just tagged spencer i was wrong on that one as well

well according to spotrac with franchising spencer were now $3 million over the cap at $126 million. I wonder how much more money they can carve out to sign a quality free agent or two?
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm having to be overly down on him to get my point across. I don't think Vacarro sucks by any means, I think he's a safety with potential that should be taken in the 25-40 range.

I just don't understand WHY he is the top safety prospect? I believe Cyprien, and even Elam, have better tape and have shown better in their collegiate careers.

If you want to sell me on potential and ceiling -- ok. I'd buy the argument that Vacarro has a higher ceiling and more potential than Elam. I'd say he and Cyprien are about equal in terms of potential. So it comes down to the tape for me.

Things that scare me about Vacarro:

-Poor angles, he often comes in too narrow (inside) allowing the ball carrier to have the edge or too wide (outside) allowing the ball carrier to cut up field.

-over aggressive coming towards the line. Vacarro often charges the line recklessly and ends up behind the ball carrier. He runs himself out of the play.

-Tackling. Seems that you can put this on any of the top safety prospects so I won't act like its just Vacarro, but going for hits instead of tackles, and aiming high instead of low

-Range. The rhetoric, in this cowboys room specifically, is that Vacarro is the perfect fit at FS. Why? Where is the evidence? Vacarro spent the majority of his time in the slot and in the box. Vacarro played much more of a SS role than Cyprien did. Cyprien spent the majority of his time in Cover-2/1, playing the zones and positions he'd be asked to play for the Cowboys.

The angles coming toward the line from a traditional safety position are much different than the angles taken from a slot/box position, which is more similar to the angles a linebacker takes.

Lack of experience tracking the ball from deep center of the field or even deep half of the field is alarming. Vacarro was rarely asked to play that way and will be extremely raw playing a traditional safety position.

Positives:

-size/speed. Although his 40 wasn't great, his field speed is when considering his size

-versatility. Playing in the slot has given him a ton of experience to fill a roll covering the new age TE. Will this come into play in Kiffin's defense? I'm not sure. Typically, Kiffin will ask Lee or Carter to match up with TE's if you look at his past defenses but he's stated he will play different schemes, not just pure Tampa-2, so maybe he will ask a safety to come up in the slot.

-toughness. He likes to throw his body around. Doesn't shy away from hits.

-tenacity/effort. Plays through the whistle. Too many safeties in the class let their teammates finish the play. Vacarro consistently gets involved in the action.

Summary: For being the supposed consensus top safety, he lacks experience playing from a traditional safety position. Minimal time in cover-2/1 looks. Lacks experience tracking ball deep. Lacks experience reading/reacting to QB and route combinations from traditional safety role. Spent majority of time playing near the box and in the slot. Runs himself out of position to often and will need to have aggressiveness reined in to be effective. Must react better in space, was caught filling gaps and getting broken down allowing ball carriers to rip off big chunks.


Edit: forgot to add this -- basically if you want to sell me on Vacarro's ceiling and potential based off his athleticism, I will buy it. But don't try and sell me on the idea that he's a better FS than Cyprien just because.

The reality is Cyprien has loads of experience playing an interchangeable true safety role, whereas Vacarro has played a hybrid CB/S role. Cyprien has tape that can be evaluated showing him tracking the ball from deep, reading/reacting to the QB, having to deal with route combinations. With Vacarro, this is all taking place behind him. He's up in the scrum, not back in no mans land.
i think you're nitpicking too much on vacarro, alot of the stuff like his poor angles can coached at the next level i don't see that as a huge deal. and i think they had him play alot at ss rather than free because texas' front seven, specifically their linebackers were terrible against the run and he was there best tackler.

i get that you love cyprien and i must admit i haven't watched his film intensely but from the two games i watched of him the one thing i'm very concerned about is will he be able to transition to the nfl regarding all the helmet to helmet hit penalties. i really am concerned that he will be more of an asset to the other team because he plays like its the 90's and the nfl is insistent to the point that those types of hits will not be tolerated anymore
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by primetime217 View Post
The biggest positive for me on taking Vaccaro is his versatility. Injuries can kill a team, and last year was a prime example. With Vaccaro, I believe he can play either safety spot, as well as fill in at the 4th CB spot in a pinch. Also, like Drewy mentioned, he can be asked to line up on the TE in certain packages. I know Elam would come down and cover guys as well in the slot, but don't know if Cyprien did.
Rarely saw Cyprien do it. Could definitely count the occurrences on 1 hand.

Elam was probably the most versatile of them all. Played both safety pos. NB. And was technically an OLB in certain fronts.

One of the reasons I have Elam ahead of Vacarro is because of his experience playing deep. Could Vacarro be better than Elam playing deep? Yes. Definitely. But it would just be a pure projection for him at this point. Vacarro could also be terrible playing a position that would be completely new to him.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Get some evidence before you post, rookie.
Dear God is it you Bob? Or CDBC? Honestly if you want to be taken seriously and your breakdowns and analysis are certainly welcome you should try really hard to suppress the urge to insult other posters that disagree with your viewpoint.

The board is an amalgamation of opinions and we all have the same resources to scout by. None of us here are NFL scouts and we all present our findings and input. Whether you agree with someone or not their eyes function and their findings are just as valid as yours.

Plain and simple not being argumentative. Watching tape Cyprien played SS in a Two-Deep scheme for FIU. Did they occasionally swap scheme for certain game situations? Of course. Are any and all flaws I mentioned of Cyprien present on game tapes? Yes? Moving on. They are all accounted for regardless of scouting report just like the negatives, to an extent, that you were speaking on Vaccaro. If either one of them had zero reportable flaws the Chiefs would have the easiest job in the world at #1 overall.

It's fine to agree to disagree but not a single person here is infallible and neither are you. Fact remains that the majority, if not all, major scouting sources (including former scouts) have Vaccaro are "far and away" the best safety in this class. Cyprien was the fastest riser given that his stock was solidly 4th round prior to all-star games/combine regardless of source and has skyrocketed since then.

Also Elam played much more of the traditional SS role for the Gators. They had a very talented and very underated Josh Evans patrolling the deep middle.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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i think you're nitpicking too much on vacarro, alot of the stuff like his poor angles can coached at the next level i don't see that as a huge deal. and i think they had him play alot at ss rather than free because texas' front seven, specifically their linebackers were terrible against the run and he was there best tackler.

i get that you love cyprien and i must admit i haven't watched his film intensely but from the two games i watched of him the one thing i'm very concerned about is will he be able to transition to the nfl regarding all the helmet to helmet hit penalties. i really am concerned that he will be more of an asset to the other team because he plays like its the 90's and the nfl is insistent to the point that those types of hits will not be tolerated anymore

That's a reasonable concern. All I ask is that if someone is going to make a point, at least have a valid point.

Saying "Cyprien is an SS and Vacarro is a FS" and not giving any evidence, examples, or legitimate reasons for why that's the case just isn't a substantial argument.

It's the same with all the people in the main draft room saying Warmack is the best OG prospect ever..

Daniel Jeremiah and Greg Cossell both prefer Cooper over Warmack. Jeremiah claims he's spoken to several teams that feel the same way. He attributed this to teams adjusting their board based on scheme.

So hypothetically speaking about the safety position -- let's say the Cowboys have similar grades on Vacarro & Cyprien and it comes down to differentiation by scheme fit.

Schematically, Cyprien will have a much easier transition to Kiffin's defense because he'll be doing the same thing he's always done.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Dear God is it you Bob? Or CDBC? Honestly if you want to be taken seriously and your breakdowns and analysis are certainly welcome you should try really hard to suppress the urge to insult other posters that disagree with your viewpoint.

The board is an amalgamation of opinions and we all have the same resources to scout by. None of us here are NFL scouts and we all present our findings and input. Whether you agree with someone or not their eyes function and their findings are just as valid as yours.

Plain and simple not being argumentative. Watching tape Cyprien played SS in a Two-Deep scheme for FIU. Did they occasionally swap scheme for certain game situations? Of course. Are any and all flaws I mentioned of Cyprien present on game tapes? Yes? Moving on. They are all accounted for regardless of scouting report just like the negatives, to an extent, that you were speaking on Vaccaro. If either one of them had zero reportable flaws the Chiefs would have the easiest job in the world at #1 overall.

It's fine to agree to disagree but not a single person here is infallible and neither are you. Fact remains that the majority, if not all, major scouting sources (including former scouts) have Vaccaro are "far and away" the best safety in this class. Cyprien was the fastest riser given that his stock was solidly 4th round prior to all-star games/combine regardless of source and has skyrocketed since then.

Also Elam played much more of the traditional SS role for the Gators. They had a very talented and very underated Josh Evans patrolling the deep middle.
Not true. Josh Norris, Dane Bruglar, and Ryan Lownes are 3 guys off the top of my head that said they prefer Cyprien to Vacarro before any all star games. So no, he isn't far and away the best safety prospect.

Also not true that Elam played a traditional SS role, I can post the videos if you want me to take you to school again. Elam was as hybrid as you can be.

I never said Cyprien didn't have flaws. But he's a better prospect than Vacarro and a better fit schematically.

I also take issue with you labeling Vacarro as a tailor made FS, when his role was nothing close to a FS last year.

Please remind me what Kiffin runs -- primarily a cover 2 scheme? Yes. You just said yourself Cyrprien played in primarily a Cover 2 scheme with variations.

Yet you still insist that not only is Vacrro the top prospect, but that he is a better fit schematically. If that's your opinion, fine. But tell me why? Because you say so? Or do you have some legitimate reasons ala ME.

And funny enough, Bob was usually right with all his criticisms. Of course he didnt follow the sheeple so everyone pounded him, but he knew his stuff.

Too many patty cakes in here afraid to come up w their own opinions and provide legitimate reasons for them.

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Old 03-04-2013, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Not true. Josh Norris, Dane Bruglar, and Ryan Lownes are 3 guys off the top of my head that said they prefer Cyprien to Vacarro before any all star games. So no, he isn't far and away the best safety prospect.

Also not true that Elam played a traditional SS role, I can post the videos if you want me to take you to school again. Elam was as hybrid as you can be.

I never said Cyprien didn't have flaws. But he's a better prospect than Vacarro and a better fit schematically.

I also take issue with you labeling Vacarro as a tailor made FS, when his role was nothing close to a FS last year.

Please remind me what Kiffin runs -- primarily a cover 2 scheme? Yes. You just said yourself Cyrprien played in primarily a Cover 2 scheme with variations.

Yet you still insist that not only is Vacrro the top prospect, but that he is a better fit schematically. If that's your opinion, fine. But tell me why? Because you say so? Or do you have some legitimate reasons ala ME.

And funny enough, Bob was usually right with all his criticisms. Of course he didnt follow the sheeple so everyone pounded him, but he knew his stuff.

Too many patty cakes in here afraid to come up w their own opinions and provide legitimate reasons for them.
I know better than to argue with you Bob but I'll take one last crack at reasoning with you.

Interesting you cherry picked those three scouts. Dane Bruglar is particularly hilarious given that all his mocks have Vaccaro going well above Cyprien. For example in his newest on Vaccaro goes 16 while Cyprien doesn't get touched in the first round. For a guy who raves about him and believes he's better than Vaccaro he doesn't exactly practice what he preaches.

Also fun times when you take a look at ************** (Ryan Lownes) and they have Vaccaro as the 14th best prospect. Cyprien? 51st best prospect.

You are grasping at straws by claiming "experts" are down on Vaccaro and high on Cyprien. Please back up on your claim that experts on higher on Cyprien than Vaccaro or stop using them as an example. Even the ones you called out as being in your corner are much higher on Vaccaro than Cyp.

Please watch more tape on Elam if you think he was playing FS. Please. He was a roaming SS with deep middle being the primary responsibility of Mr. Josh Evans. Snippet from CBS on Josh Evans.



Even the Gators newspaper repeatedly refers to Elam as strong-safety as well as every single draft resource. He was tasked with being the enforcer and was a constant roaming presence.




As far as understanding Kiffin's scheme you need a FS and a SS. Barry Church is set to be our John Lynch. To counter that you need an Damien Robinson (back when TB had the duo) or Earl Thomas to play the deep zone. Cyprien is not the guy you ask to play deep middle. He's the one you want moving forward and striking a la John Lynch. Same with Elam. While you are correct in that Two-Deep requirements at FIU are similiar to Two-Deep requirements in the NFL FS and SS are not interchangeable in that regard.

Seattle wouldn't be as successful with two Kam Chancellors, or TB back in the day with two John Lynch's.

The best part about Bob was his willingness to attack other people for their opinions and then disappear when he was wrong.


Now on topic. As far as what makes Vaccaro the top FS in the class.

When looking at a guy you want to play deep-half or cover-1 you need fluid hips and Vaccaro certainly has them. Vision and ability to track the ball once it's released? A+. Just watch a few plays when Vaccaro is playing deep half he sinks his hips and is VERY quick to diagnose the route progression and attack at the start of the throwing motion. This checks a box for intelligence and play recognition. He's got the athletic build and range needed for the position and flies up in run support. When watching Vaccaro it's easy to see the fluidity in his hips and smooth backpedal. He also has a good burst when transitioning out of the backpedal which allows him to keep his eyes in the backfield for a longer period of time. He checks the boxes for open field tackling (note this is open field tackling not moving forward to deliver a hit) and also versatility in terms of blitzing and covering TEs/slot.

Now he certainly is not perfect and that's why he won't be drafted top 10 IMHO. He plays out of control at times moving forward to defend the run. Inconsistent hands. He'll read the play and be between the ball and receiver only to tip it away rather than make the splash play. Lastly and one that bothers me at times with pretty much EVERY safety in this class. They all lead with their shoulders and hit too high on the ball carrier when moving forward. Vaccaro on occassion will hit high with his shoulder allowing bigger players to spin off for additional yardage rather than wrapping up.

Not going to beat a dead horse after this post. Not only are we arguing in the discussion thread but it's on a topic that has been beaten to death already.
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