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Old 03-04-2013, 09:00 PM    (permalink
leroyisgod
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
I'm having to be overly down on him to get my point across. I don't think Vacarro sucks by any means, I think he's a safety with potential that should be taken in the 25-40 range.

I just don't understand WHY he is the top safety prospect? I believe Cyprien, and even Elam, have better tape and have shown better in their collegiate careers.

If you want to sell me on potential and ceiling -- ok. I'd buy the argument that Vacarro has a higher ceiling and more potential than Elam. I'd say he and Cyprien are about equal in terms of potential. So it comes down to the tape for me.

Things that scare me about Vacarro:

-Poor angles, he often comes in too narrow (inside) allowing the ball carrier to have the edge or too wide (outside) allowing the ball carrier to cut up field.

-over aggressive coming towards the line. Vacarro often charges the line recklessly and ends up behind the ball carrier. He runs himself out of the play.

-Tackling. Seems that you can put this on any of the top safety prospects so I won't act like its just Vacarro, but going for hits instead of tackles, and aiming high instead of low

-Range. The rhetoric, in this cowboys room specifically, is that Vacarro is the perfect fit at FS. Why? Where is the evidence? Vacarro spent the majority of his time in the slot and in the box. Vacarro played much more of a SS role than Cyprien did. Cyprien spent the majority of his time in Cover-2/1, playing the zones and positions he'd be asked to play for the Cowboys.

The angles coming toward the line from a traditional safety position are much different than the angles taken from a slot/box position, which is more similar to the angles a linebacker takes.

Lack of experience tracking the ball from deep center of the field or even deep half of the field is alarming. Vacarro was rarely asked to play that way and will be extremely raw playing a traditional safety position.

Positives:

-size/speed. Although his 40 wasn't great, his field speed is when considering his size

-versatility. Playing in the slot has given him a ton of experience to fill a roll covering the new age TE. Will this come into play in Kiffin's defense? I'm not sure. Typically, Kiffin will ask Lee or Carter to match up with TE's if you look at his past defenses but he's stated he will play different schemes, not just pure Tampa-2, so maybe he will ask a safety to come up in the slot.

-toughness. He likes to throw his body around. Doesn't shy away from hits.

-tenacity/effort. Plays through the whistle. Too many safeties in the class let their teammates finish the play. Vacarro consistently gets involved in the action.

Summary: For being the supposed consensus top safety, he lacks experience playing from a traditional safety position. Minimal time in cover-2/1 looks. Lacks experience tracking ball deep. Lacks experience reading/reacting to QB and route combinations from traditional safety role. Spent majority of time playing near the box and in the slot. Runs himself out of position to often and will need to have aggressiveness reined in to be effective. Must react better in space, was caught filling gaps and getting broken down allowing ball carriers to rip off big chunks.


Edit: forgot to add this -- basically if you want to sell me on Vacarro's ceiling and potential based off his athleticism, I will buy it. But don't try and sell me on the idea that he's a better FS than Cyprien just because.

The reality is Cyprien has loads of experience playing an interchangeable true safety role, whereas Vacarro has played a hybrid CB/S role. Cyprien has tape that can be evaluated showing him tracking the ball from deep, reading/reacting to the QB, having to deal with route combinations. With Vacarro, this is all taking place behind him. He's up in the scrum, not back in no mans land.
But why do you feel the experts are putting him as the top safety. It's not even a case where it's split, it's like 90% if not more are putting him as the top Safety. I'm not busting balls, I'm just curious as to the big separation between them and what you're seeing. I believe you make a ton of great points and have a good eye for what you see on tape.
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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Response to Trogdor:

Here's Dane telling me 15 minutes ago he doesn't view Vacarro as a top 20 player



Still waiting for Ryan to respond. Easy enough to get Josh to back this as well.

Mock drafts are where you THINK a guy will go, not where he SHOULD go. I'm curious if you understand the concept.

Yes, Elam was listed as a SS. But again, you HAVEN'T watched the tape or else you 'd know he plays SS, FS, NB on a regular basis. In fact in the second game I posted against A&M he spend more time at NB than he does at S





And here's the best part -- you say Vacarro is A+ playing deep, tracking the ball. Show me 1 example. You're failing to realize no one cares what you say if you have no evidence.

I can write exactly what you wrote about Vacarro but insert "Cyprien" and pretend its true. But I don't. Instead I provide video evidence of Cyprien playing at a HIGH level in a scheme similar to what the Cowboys will be running.

You also go on to say Cyprien can't play the deep middle when I just posted a video earlier showing him playing deep middle.

Give up dude. Just let it go. You're wrong.
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:38 PM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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Originally Posted by leroyisgod View Post
But why do you feel the experts are putting him as the top safety. It's not even a case where it's split, it's like 90% if not more are putting him as the top Safety. I'm not busting balls, I'm just curious as to the big separation between them and what you're seeing. I believe you make a ton of great points and have a good eye for what you see on tape.
I think it's based on potential. The same reason they have Ziggy Ansah rated as a top-10 player despite him being very raw. The same reason Dontari Poe was able to go so high last year.

As I've maintained all along. I don't think Vacarro sucks. I don't hate Vacarro. I think Vacarro is extremely raw, especially if the team that drafts him plans on using him as a FS.

As far as on field performance, it's clear to me that Cyprien and Elam are much better on the field at this point.

When playing in the box, which is where Vacarro spent 95% of his time (despite Trogdors false claims of showing A+ FS skills), he takes worse angles than Cyprien and Elam. Those 2 are consistently able to work towards the ball carrier on a line (angle) and make the tackle. With Vacarro I see someone who goes too narrow/wide more frequently than the other 2

This is what I refer to when I'm saying he plays out of control. He often has to turn and run to tackle from behind, not head on.

When he attempts to make a play behind the LOS, he'll frequently get behind the ball -- running himself out of the play.

I saw at least 3 instances in the Oregon st. game (reverse on 4th & 1, touchdown run by RB, and first down run by RB on option play where QB sprints to left) where he doesn't know where the ball is. It's literally behind him before he realizes it.

Ill answer your question by saying while most in the media -- Mayock, Gil Brandt, etc. -- have Vacarro as their top safety, I'm assuming its because he's an athlete who's shown versatility. He has great physical tool. He probably has a lighter back peddle than Elam and equal to Cyprien. I can't speak to hips,mbecause I've honestly never quite been able to tell who has "good" hips. I can tell if its blatantly obvious that a guy is stiff, but I can't really distinguish medium vs great hips.

I'll follow that by saying I also think some guys in the media are trash. Specifically Gil Brandt. I think he's old and I think he's lazy. He says Vacarro is nearly as good as Mark Barron which is an absolute joke.

Mark Barron was on another level than all the safeties in this class. He's not the same type of player as an Eric Berry or Earl Thomas but as a prospect Mark Barron was closer to them than he is to Vacarro, Cyprien, or Elam.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:54 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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Not going point to point with you Drewy. You are picking and choosing and then redirecting so it's pointless.

You asked why I rank him highly. I answer and you redirect that I don't have any evidence. You have fingers so do the other forum members. Take a look at any of the game-tape and feel free to draw your own conclusions.

Looked through your post history and I see you trust Lande, Mayock, and a few others so I'll post their safety RANKINGS (not mocks) so you can't attempt to blur the lines between where they are drafted and actual talent.

You quoted Mayock A TON when talking about Barron last year and it's safe to say he's a premiere DB evaluator.

Take a gander at his top 5 safeties as of right now.

Safety
1. Kenny Vaccaro, Texas
2. Matt Elam, Florida
3. Jonathan Cyprien, Florida International
4. Eric Reid, LSU
5. Shamarko Thomas, Syracuse

Hrm.

Lets move on to Lande.

1. Kenny Vaccaro: 8.3
2. Jonathan Cyprien: 8.0
3. Eric Reid: 7.5
4. Josh Evans: 7.2
5. Tony Jefferson: 7.0

...

I mean I get it. Cyprien is your crush and you are certainly entitled. Stop saying things like the "experts/scouts all agree with me". Agreeing with the opinions of Mayock/Lande/etc doesn't make people sheep if they watch the film and come to the same conclusion. Going against the grain means accepting that you are either A) going to win big or B) going to get it wrong.


Lande on Vaccaro:



Mayock:



As far as hips easiest way to evaluate is the transition out of the backpedal. When they reach the high point of the backpedal and swivel to turn in run is it a complete, fluid motion or do they lose a step in transition. Deion is the best example when he flipped his hips it resulted in no extra step or loss of speed. Vaccaro has the agility of a corner which explains his flexibility to play the slot but he is nowhere near Neon Deion in that department :)

As far as games to recommend to see more of Vaccaro playing deeper. Kansas State has a bunch of snaps where he either starts deep and reads or backpedals on the step to a deep zone.

New Mexico is another one that actually is a decent watch. He plays super deep at first and Texas moves him more to the slot when they burn the defense with the option a few times. His overly aggressive approach hurts him at times but watching the tape shows his elite athleticism. He consistently made plays from the opposite side of the field. He reads the play very well and moves with purpose.

I hadn't touched tape of Vaccaro in a bit I do agree he is being overrated by outlets pushing him as a top 10 or even top 15 pick. He has without a doubt excellent play recognition and athleticism. He has got to fix his ability to perform run support and tendency to lean into receivers with his shoulder rather than wrap tackling at times.

Oklahoma State game might be one of his worst games and it really highlights the two extremes. He is a part of pretty much every tackle. He is breaking on a pass before the QB even sets his feet for an INT. He also over-pursues and gets caught flat-footed on a nice juke and gets blocked out of the play by a WR.

I respect the intelligent banter as having multiple eyes watching tape gives us a better community as a whole. I imagine we're going to have to agree to disagree on the safety situation given that neither of us is going to budge.

Perhaps agree to stop the condescending slant on the pissing contest? :D
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:31 AM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
Not going point to point with you Drewy. You are picking and choosing and then redirecting so it's pointless.

You asked why I rank him highly. I answer and you redirect that I don't have any evidence. You have fingers so do the other forum members. Take a look at any of the game-tape and feel free to draw your own conclusions.

Looked through your post history and I see you trust Lande, Mayock, and a few others so I'll post their safety RANKINGS (not mocks) so you can't attempt to blur the lines between where they are drafted and actual talent.

You quoted Mayock A TON when talking about Barron last year and it's safe to say he's a premiere DB evaluator.

Take a gander at his top 5 safeties as of right now.

Safety
1. Kenny Vaccaro, Texas
2. Matt Elam, Florida
3. Jonathan Cyprien, Florida International
4. Eric Reid, LSU
5. Shamarko Thomas, Syracuse

Hrm.

Lets move on to Lande.

1. Kenny Vaccaro: 8.3
2. Jonathan Cyprien: 8.0
3. Eric Reid: 7.5
4. Josh Evans: 7.2
5. Tony Jefferson: 7.0

...

I mean I get it. Cyprien is your crush and you are certainly entitled. Stop saying things like the "experts/scouts all agree with me". Agreeing with the opinions of Mayock/Lande/etc doesn't make people sheep if they watch the film and come to the same conclusion. Going against the grain means accepting that you are either A) going to win big or B) going to get it wrong.


Lande on Vaccaro:



Mayock:



As far as hips easiest way to evaluate is the transition out of the backpedal. When they reach the high point of the backpedal and swivel to turn in run is it a complete, fluid motion or do they lose a step in transition. Deion is the best example when he flipped his hips it resulted in no extra step or loss of speed. Vaccaro has the agility of a corner which explains his flexibility to play the slot but he is nowhere near Neon Deion in that department :)

As far as games to recommend to see more of Vaccaro playing deeper. Kansas State has a bunch of snaps where he either starts deep and reads or backpedals on the step to a deep zone.

New Mexico is another one that actually is a decent watch. He plays super deep at first and Texas moves him more to the slot when they burn the defense with the option a few times. His overly aggressive approach hurts him at times but watching the tape shows his elite athleticism. He consistently made plays from the opposite side of the field. He reads the play very well and moves with purpose.

I hadn't touched tape of Vaccaro in a bit I do agree he is being overrated by outlets pushing him as a top 10 or even top 15 pick. He has without a doubt excellent play recognition and athleticism. He has got to fix his ability to perform run support and tendency to lean into receivers with his shoulder rather than wrap tackling at times.

Oklahoma State game might be one of his worst games and it really highlights the two extremes. He is a part of pretty much every tackle. He is breaking on a pass before the QB even sets his feet for an INT. He also over-pursues and gets caught flat-footed on a nice juke and gets blocked out of the play by a WR.

I respect the intelligent banter as having multiple eyes watching tape gives us a better community as a whole. I imagine we're going to have to agree to disagree on the safety situation given that neither of us is going to budge.

Perhaps agree to stop the condescending slant on the pissing contest? :D
Pissing contest can stop.

As far as my crush, it's actually Elam. I don't really have any reason to be on Cypriens nuts -- I seriously just think he's the top Safety in this class.

As far as Mayock and Lande, I do respect both those guys. I don't always agree, but they're 10 times better than Kiper or Brandt.

Mayock tends to overrate ND players. He calls their games and I assume is a fan.

As far as Lande, I like him because he has balls. He isn't worried about what other people think. Prior to the combine and the Alex Smith trade, he declared that Nassib was going #1 overall to KC.

As crazy as that sounds to most people, me included, I respect the guys that trust their eyes.

There is nothing more frustrating then searching on through these forums, specifically in the main 2013 draft room, and watching everyone repeat everything. Like, why do I even come on here? I don't need to see ppl type up the same **** I just saw on tv or read on NFL.com

I often source scout and media guys as a reference or if I don't have an opinion on someone myself, but I swear 75% of the people on here just float around as sheeple trying to collect rep points. It's pathetic.

Anyway, off my box. And I appreciate you giving me examples of games where I can see Vacarro playing deep.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:29 AM    (permalink
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DJ Swearinger please.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:39 AM    (permalink
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Shamarko Thomas
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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David Amerson i think he's a good corner but could be a great safety
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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He has the ball skills and movement in coverage but I'm not sure he is a good enough tackler to be in the Tampa Two. If I am looking for a corner to convert I am keeping my eyes on Xavier Rhodes.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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He has the ball skills and movement in coverage but I'm not sure he is a good enough tackler to be in the Tampa Two. If I am looking for a corner to convert I am keeping my eyes on Xavier Rhodes.
amerson isn't afraid of the contact (which is most important to me) its his technique that fails him most of the time, that can be coached and he'd fit in right in with the rest of our secondary in terms of tackling. but you cant coach those balls skills and range, something we really have lacked at the safety positions since the days of darren woodson and brock marion.

the corners are gonna be do more tackling than the safeties in this defense, the safeties gonna be deep in the cover 2, but the corners play op

besides realistically rhodes will probably go before second round pick

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Old 03-05-2013, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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amerson isn't afraid of the contact (which is most important to me) its his technique that fails him most of the time, that can be coached and he'd fit in right in with the rest of our secondary in terms of tackling. but you cant coach those balls skills and range, something we really have lacked at the safety positions since the days of darren woodson and brock marion.

the corners are gonna be do more tackling than the safeties in this defense, the safeties gonna be deep in the cover 2, but the corners play op

besides realistically rhodes will probably go before second round pick
Carr is a pretty solid tackler, Church can lay the lumber, Mo gives effort but clearly needs to add bulk to be more efficient.

Don't sleep on Amerson sneaking back into the first round. He ran faster then expected at the combine and even with his issues he has some of the best ball skills in the draft.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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I would be happy with amerson in the 2nd, happy with swearinger in the 3rd/4th and happy with Thomas in the 5th/6th.

For best value, swearinger hands down.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Witten4HOF View Post

Don't sleep on Amerson sneaking back into the first round. He ran faster then expected at the combine and even with his issues he has some of the best ball skills in the draft.
based on his combine numbers amerson could be first round pick and, based on film of this year he could be a 4th round pick, the answer must lie somewhere in the middle
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:14 AM    (permalink
Trogdor
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