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Old 03-05-2013, 10:56 PM    (permalink
fatso
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Do you guys think the deflated ball fiasco is hurting his stock at all?
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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Lmao no not really. He just isn't that great.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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What a difference. It used to be: "arm strengths are about equal with Luck having the slight advantage" and "if you think Luck has even slightly more arm strength than Barkley, you obviously haven't been paying attention" and "I like the zip Barkley puts on his short and intermediate throws. He's got a slight, but clear advantage over Luck in that department"... And one year later, Barkley suddenly does not have an arm and can't play in the NFL. I don't see much difference between Luck and Barkley in terms of arm strength and as you can see his arm was not an issue until people had to create something negative about Barkley.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Roddoliver View Post
What a difference. It used to be: "arm strengths are about equal with Luck having the slight advantage" and "if you think Luck has even slightly more arm strength than Barkley, you obviously haven't been paying attention" and "I like the zip Barkley puts on his short and intermediate throws. He's got a slight, but clear advantage over Luck in that department"... And one year later, Barkley suddenly does not have an arm and can't play in the NFL. I don't see much difference between Luck and Barkley in terms of arm strength and as you can see his arm was not an issue until people had to create something negative about Barkley.
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that's what I'm seeing too.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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I've been hesitant to say this because Luck hype is beyond out of control but I actually think Barkley will end up a roughly similar pro in terms of success when compared to Luck. People have seriously lost their minds over Luck IMO. That isn't Luck's fault, he's a great prospect and I don't agree that his arm strength is a valid concern. But people are expecting him to be some sort of alien defense-destroying robot QB and it's just not realistic.
Hrm. This doesn't seem like such a good take right now. I hope it's not, anyway.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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The biggest negative with Barkley is that he had a statistical regression in his senior year, where you want to see improvement from year to year. You also have to be concerned about how much of his production can really be attributed to him, considering the elite talent he had around him at the skill positions.

Beyond that, he has an NFL-calibur set of physical tools. I don't think his arm is necessarily elite, but I don't think Tom Brady's arm is elite either, and he certainly gets by.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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I cannot believe some of the comments posted here.

Matt Barkley has below average arm strength and is nowhere near Luck in that aspect. His deep ball tends to float and that is why he is only considered a late round 1 possibility. He really only has round 2 talent.
He might and I stress, might, possibly be a decent WCO QB where the deep pass isn't a high priority but he could never play in the Colt's system.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I cannot believe some of the comments posted here.

Matt Barkley has below average arm strength and is nowhere near Luck in that aspect. His deep ball tends to float and that is why he is only considered a late round 1 possibility. He really only has round 2 talent.
He might and I stress, might, possibly be a decent WCO QB where the deep pass isn't a high priority but he could never play in the Colt's system.
Luck doesn't have a great arm. He throws floating ducks up all the time.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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Luck doesn't have a great arm. He throws floating ducks up all the time.
His arm may only be average but it makes Barkley's arm strength look pitiful.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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He might and I stress, might, possibly be a decent WCO QB where the deep pass isn't a high priority but he could never play in the Colt's system.
WCO does not equal rarely throws deep. Its embarrassing to see someone post that while posing as though they know what they are talking about...

WCO is an offense where the run game is supplemented by a short passing game to get the ball out of the box to playmakers. They still run deep routes, often, and still attack downfield, its just that they throw short/horizontally to spread the defense to open holes for big runs/passes.



Im more concerned that barkley started forcing throws a lot this year than with his arm. Not having a great arm doesnt help his pro future, but throwing the ball into tight windows like you have a gun when you DONT is a bigger issue to me. If hes seeing these tiny windows and thinking 'oh i can hit that' but cant in college then hes going to be a train wreck going forward.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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WCO does not equal rarely throws deep. Its embarrassing to see someone post that while posing as though they know what they are talking about...

WCO is an offense where the run game is supplemented by a short passing game to get the ball out of the box to playmakers. They still run deep routes, often, and still attack downfield, its just that they throw short/horizontally to spread the defense to open holes for big runs/passes.
WCO teams do not attempt a lot of deep patterns, it is mostly a short passing game where the receivers pick up a lot of yardage after the catch, of course, they will occasionally throw a deep pattern relying on surprise to fool CB's and Safeties but it is not a main ingredient of the offense and that is why weak armed QB's are always mentioned as possible WCO QB's.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Arm strength is more important throwing across the field than down the field. Most quarterbacks can get it deep enough if they wind up. It's getting those sideline balls out on time and to the right spot that brings arm strength into play.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Arm strength is more important throwing across the field than down the field. Most quarterbacks can get it deep enough if they wind up. It's getting those sideline balls out on time and to the right spot that brings arm strength into play.
This is quite true but Barkley's deep balls also tend to float which is why NFL.com is saying he is a 2nd round talent who likely gets drafted in round 1 because of the huge need at the position but I doubt any team not employing a WCO offense will draft him.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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Arm strength is more important throwing across the field than down the field. Most quarterbacks can get it deep enough if they wind up. It's getting those sideline balls out on time and to the right spot that brings arm strength into play.
Exactly.

The out patterns and comeback throws are just as important for arm strength as the deep ball.
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Old 03-09-2013, 04:47 AM    (permalink
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I like Barkley, but he reminds me of the Jimmy Clausen types. Guys who seem to peak when they're 18 years old and never really show any improvement in college. Barkley looks like the same player that he did three years ago. Some players (Tom Brady) physically mature when they're in their mid 20s. Others seem to max out in their late teens / early twenties. It's hard / impossible to predict the Tom Brady types.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Barkley had a rough year, but now he is seriously underrated. He still throws an excellent ball. His arm strength is still better than average. He is still accurate. The amount of pressure he had to deal with this year was insane, and the game plans sucked. His decision making wasn't great, but I believe that is due to the severe lack of time to make those decisions.

When I watched him play live, I was very disappointed by the results. Then I rewatched the passing plays more carefully to evaluate him, and I was shocked by how horrible the situations he was in were. Rarely have I ever seen a person produce at all under such conditions. Barkley did as well in them as anyone I have ever seen, excepting a few legendary quarterbacks already several years into their NFL careers.

As to BigBanger's belief that Barkley didn't improve in college, that is completely inaccurate. He was far better as a sophomore than as a freshman, and as a junior than as a sophomore. The only time he didn't was going from a junior to a senior, and I've reluctantly concluded that it wasn't really his fault at all. Reluctantly because whoever wins the job this year is going to be massively worse, even though I expect them to be in a far better situation.

At this point, it is far more likely that Barkley will be a steal than a bust, even if he is picked far more highly than most people rate him. You can never know that for sure, but he is an excellent college player with all of the abilities necessary for a good transition to the pros. His upside isn't nearly as low as some people think either.

So I guess this is a long winded post to say I'm doubling down. If I was in the QB market, I'd take Barkley in a heartbeat. I'd take him top five. I'd expect him to be my Franchise QB for the next decade. Even after Griffin had such a successful season, I'd still take Barkley over him. I understand why many wouldn't take him early, since I was prepared to massively downgrade him myself, but I was persuaded by what I saw on closer examination.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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After Barkley's throwing session, people will say they were impressed and he had great interviews, shows leadership skills, USC had problems at the OL, defense allowed a lot of points, Barkley was pressured to do too much, junior tape is really good, etc. Barkley will be a top 10 pick, might go before Geno Smith.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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After Barkley's throwing session, people will say they were impressed and he had great interviews, shows leadership skills, USC had problems at the OL, defense allowed a lot of points, Barkley was pressured to do too much, junior tape is really good, etc. Barkley will be a top 10 pick, might go before Geno Smith.
This seems very likely to me as well. Almost every year people are very down on the quarterbacks well before the draft, but they always move up in the consensus. A good example was Griffin last year.

Barkley is far better than players like Glennon, Manuel, or Nassib, and people will realize that, they just need an excuse for changing their minds again, and it is almost certain that Barkley will give them just that.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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After Barkley's throwing session, people will say they were impressed and he had great interviews, shows leadership skills, USC had problems at the OL, defense allowed a lot of points, Barkley was pressured to do too much, junior tape is really good, etc. Barkley will be a top 10 pick, might go before Geno Smith.
You may be right or the story will be his arm is stronger than people thought.. I hope not I think Barkley will be USC Quarterback fail 4.0 after Sanchez Linart and Castle.. He is shorter with out arm strength or athleticism.. Leadership and intangibles doesn't make up for lack of ability to throw the ball... 30 percent of Barkley's passes are screens..

Landry Jones threw the ball 600 times more than Barkley for 4,000 more total yards and only 3 more Interceptions and Less Sacks.. Barkley doesn't sound like he was all that good with pressure.. Jones has more wins and the same completion percentage.. Jones had 123 TD's despite being taken out of the Red Zone the last too years.. Luck fell apart with his stats this year when he had to throw it more... Luck went from throwing it 350 times a year to throwing it 619 times and only completed 54% What will Barkley do when he goes from 384 throws to 564 like Jones or 619 like Luck did this year.. Barkley is a product of hype and marketing... I would take Jones over both of them..
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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You may be right or the story will be his arm is stronger than people thought.. I hope not I think Barkley will be USC Quarterback fail 4.0 after Sanchez Linart and Castle.. He is shorter with out arm strength or athleticism.. Leadership and intangibles doesn't make up for lack of ability to throw the ball... 30 percent of Barkley's passes are screens..

Landry Jones threw the ball 600 times more than Barkley for 4,000 more total yards and only 3 more Interceptions and Less Sacks.. Barkley doesn't sound like he was all that good with pressure.. Jones has more wins and the same completion percentage.. Jones had 123 TD's despite being taken out of the Red Zone the last too years.. Luck fell apart with his stats this year when he had to throw it more... Luck went from throwing it 350 times a year to throwing it 619 times and only completed 54% What will Barkley do when he goes from 384 throws to 564 like Jones or 619 like Luck did this year.. Barkley is a product of hype and marketing... I would take Jones over both of them..

Can you make a pro or con argument for Landry Jones that doesn't begin and end with.....STATS?

Just reviewing my mental notes, Barkley is a much better pressure QB than Jones, although Jones has the superior arm.

BTW no good OC is going to ask his rookie QB to throw the ball 600+ times as a rookie. WHat Arians asked of Luck was abnormal.

It's crazy to assume the 564 balls Landry Jones threw last season are equivalent to the 600+ attempts Andrew Luck had against pro defenses as a rookie.

You do know that Barkley's season with his highest number of attempts(446) was his best season by far as a Trojan; his highest yardage total, most TDs, fewest INTs and highest completion percentage(69%)??

Ride Jones' jock all you want, but your 'stat' argument really just doesn't hold up when you try to argue why you believe Landry Jones is not only the best QB available in this draft, but the best QB prospect in a generation(which is what you're saying when you contend you'd take Landry Jones over Luck too).
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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So I guess this is a long winded post to say I'm doubling down. If I was in the QB market, I'd take Barkley in a heartbeat. I'd take him top five. I'd expect him to be my Franchise QB for the next decade. Even after Griffin had such a successful season, I'd still take Barkley over him. I understand why many wouldn't take him early, since I was prepared to massively downgrade him myself, but I was persuaded by what I saw on closer examination.

RG3 has a much, much better deep ball than Barkley and he blows him away in arm strength.

Why would you have taken Barkley over Griffin again???
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Can you make a pro or con argument for Landry Jones that doesn't begin and end with.....STATS?

Just reviewing my mental notes, Barkley is a much better pressure QB than Jones, although Jones has the superior arm.

BTW no good OC is going to ask his rookie QB to throw the ball 600+ times as a rookie. WHat Arians asked of Luck was abnormal.

It's crazy to assume the 564 balls Landry Jones threw last season are equivalent to the 600+ attempts Andrew Luck had against pro defenses as a rookie.

You do know that Barkley's season with his highest number of attempts(446) was his best season by far as a Trojan; his highest yardage total, most TDs, fewest INTs and highest completion percentage(69%)??

Ride Jones' jock all you want, but your 'stat' argument really just doesn't hold up when you try to argue why you believe Landry Jones is not only the best QB available in this draft, but the best QB prospect in a generation(which is what you're saying when you contend you'd take Landry Jones over Luck too).
I am not saying that Luck is not good or Barkley isn't good.They both are. I wasn't comparing Luck in the NFL to Jones in College either. I argue stats cause they are fact and not opinion or hype.. Evaluating QB's their talent or lack of talent shows up in their stats.. They are most responsible for completing passes moving the ball and scoring TD's.. I think the likely hood that Barkley will be really good in the NFL is slim with his limitations size mobility and arm strength those are a common factor in every NFL FLop... Yes Luck had a good stats in college but i think he was way over hyped he only threw the ball only 1064 times. A QB can look better when you have a good run game and don't throw it much. Ej Manuel is a good example. I defend Landry because he is unfairly maligned based on antidotes of a few plays not based on reality of stats. No one is saying Luck cant handle the pressure with his 54.1 completion 18 int's and 41 sacks.. I think that Landry has the potential to be just as successful as Luck. I do think the ultimate test of what QB is going to be the most successful is what Arians (who saw luck and and manning)does in this draft..
A non stat argument for Jones is that he is a High Character guy very Religious, a very hard worker, he is married and mature and has no off field issues.. He leads by example.

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Old 03-18-2013, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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I am not saying that Luck is not good or Barkley isn't good.They both are. I wasn't comparing Luck in the NFL to Jones in College either. I argue stats cause they are fact and not opinion or hype.. Evaluating QB's their talent or lack of talent shows up in their stats.. They are most responsible for completing passes moving the ball and scoring TD's.. I think the likely hood that Barkley will be really good in the NFL is slim with his limitations size mobility and arm strength those are a common factor in every NFL FLop... Yes Luck had a good stats in college but i think he was way over hyped he only threw the ball only 1064 times. A QB can look better when you have a good run game and don't throw it much. Ej Manuel is a good example. I defend Landry because he is unfairly maligned based on antidotes of a few plays not based on reality of stats. No one is saying Luck cant handle the pressure with his 54.1 completion 18 int's and 41 sacks.. I think that Landry has the potential to be just as successful as Luck. I do think the ultimate test of what QB is going to be the most successful is what Arians (who saw luck and and manning)does in this draft..
A non stat argument for Jones is that he is a High Character guy very Religious, a very hard worker, he is married and mature and has no off field issues.. He leads by example.
Seth Doege > Landry Jones, right!?
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Looking back at the college stats, I've discovered that Joe Montana was not nearly as good as a pro as we thought he was. Turns out the guy only had 515 pass attempts in his CAREER at Notre Dame! Given that Landry Jones had more attempts than that in 3 out of his 4 seasons it is safe to see that Landry has a 75% chance of surpassing Montana's career NFL numbers in just his rookie season. Pretty shocking when you remove the hype and opinion, huh?

Just the facts, ma'am.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Seth Doege > Landry Jones, right!?
Seth dodge did great but he's short 6'1 198 with low arm strength which is why Barkley is over hyped.. all the stat kings who didnt make it in the NFL have those three things in common.... Jones is 6'4 230 excellent arm strength
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