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Old 03-05-2013, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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E.Brown was like 5'10 or something
6'2" 256 lbs.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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4 inches doesn't make the difference between 12 repetitions and 25-30 reps. And even if it did, it doesn't excuse how guys with similar arm lengths and longer were boosting 20+ times. Moore being the youngest of the group doesn't make him some runt of the litter. He's a grown ass man who had months to dedicate himself into getting his body into peak physical shape. And he got embarrassed.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TitanHope View Post
4 inches doesn't make the difference between 12 repetitions and 25-30 reps. And even if it did, it doesn't excuse how guys with similar arm lengths and longer were boosting 20+ times. Moore being the youngest of the group doesn't make him some runt of the litter. He's a grown ass man who had months to dedicate himself into getting his body into peak physical shape. And he got embarrassed.
Myeehh....he did poorly in two events, did excellant in the two others he participated in. Strength will improve with maturity. A lot. His college production, his effort, his intelligence, and his personality trump any off day at the track to me. Three years of work on the field > than two days at the Combine by a 100 times at least. But you pick your players how you see fit.
Then we won't be fighting over the same guy on draft day
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Myeehh....he did poorly in two events, did excellant in the two others he participated in. Strength will improve with maturity. A lot. His college production, his effort, his intelligence, and his personality trump any off day at the track to me. Three years of work on the field > than two days at the Combine by a 100 times at least. But you pick your players how you see fit.
Then we won't be fighting over the same guy on draft day
You could say this about so many high production college guys that didn't make it in the pros. Stop acting like physical tools don't matter. They do. Those other things matter as well, but its about evaluating how that total package of a player will translate and produce against NFL players.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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Myeehh....he did poorly in two events, did excellant in the two others he participated in. Strength will improve with maturity. A lot. His college production, his effort, his intelligence, and his personality trump any off day at the track to me. Three years of work on the field > than two days at the Combine by a 100 times at least. But you pick your players how you see fit.
Then we won't be fighting over the same guy on draft day
I didn't like Moore before the combine.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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You could say this about so many high production college guys that didn't make it in the pros. Stop acting like physical tools don't matter. They do. Those other things matter as well, but its about evaluating how that total package of a player will translate and produce against NFL players.
Absolutely, but I think Moore's "physical tools" are just fine. He is 6-5, 250, with 35" arms, 10 1/2" hands. Room on his frame to add another 25 pounds easily if he wanted. Is among the top 10 DE in two of the four combine events he particpated in, of all players tested over the past three years. Also, you don't end up with 27 D1 sacks by the time you turn 20 years old without "physical tools". He didn't do it using ropes and wires.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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I didn't like Moore before the combine.
I didn't either. I see a mediocre NFL pass rusher when I watch him. He's the sort of guy you can have on your roster, but if he's a backup he won't play much and if he's the starter you'll be constantly trying to replace him.

There's absolutely nothing less valuable in the scouting process than "accumulated college stats" and that's pretty much where all of the Moore love is coming from. I can name 8-9 pass rushers I'd draft before Moore.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:21 AM    (permalink
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Been trying to get this point across for awhile. Moore has longer arms than guys who are 20-30 pounds heavier and four or five years older than himself. Obviously he isn't going to compare well in a strength test. But would he be a better prospect if he was 23 instead of 20, with 31" arms instead of 35" arms? I'm sure he'd probably do 25-30 reps if that were the case, without much problem.

His 40 was a mess because he pulled a muscle, probably. Not that he would break any records healthy, but he was top 5 in both his jumps, which shows the explosiveness is there. Damontre had better stats at his age than Von Miller did playing for the same team. Miller was rated as a second round pick after his junior season. They were playing lesser competition then as well.

He is in the top ten in both vertical and broad jumps for all DE tested at the Combine over the past three years. That is enough athleticism for me.
If there is no validity to the theory that he pulled a hamstring in the 40, the lack of speed considering his weight is alarming. His VJ and BJ suggest he might have decent get off but his unofficial 10 yard time of 1.69 suggests otherwise.

To make excuses, however, for his poor showing on the BP due to his arm length is reaching. 12 reps for a 250 lb man is embarrassing and shows a severe lack of work ethic in the gym. He has NEARLY 35 inch arms... big deal. There were 4 other DEs with the same arm legnth or more and none did less than 9 more reps than Moore. Goodman, with his 36 3/8 inch arms, did 14 more reps than Moore. Johnthan Banks, he of the 6'2 185 lb frame and 34 inch arms, managed 10 reps. Moore should have claimed tendonitis in an elbow before going out there and show everybody he hasn't visited the gym much during his college career.

The 4.95 is shockingly bad, but not a death sentence. Terrell Suggs and James Harrison were both in that range (but perhaps a tad faster). The disturbing thing to me is that he hasn't worked his tail off to get better. And everybody knows that handing a huge pile of cash to somebody that isn't a hardworker doesn't usually work out well.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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There's absolutely nothing less valuable in the scouting process than "accumulated college stats" and that's pretty much where all of the Moore love is coming from.
Yeah, what a lousy way to judge a football player. How well they did on the field. Teams should just send their scouts to Africa, or Khazakstan, or Siberia, and bring back busloads of physical freaks. Give them a couple of weeks of instruction and they're good to go.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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. And everybody knows that handing a huge pile of cash to somebody that isn't a hardworker doesn't usually work out well.
Moore won the Second Effort award that the Texas coaches give out each week TWICE AS OFTEN as any other player on the team last year. What is the point of spending two months practicing takeoffs on a track. Or pushing 225 pounds off your chest for four or five hours a day so you can push 225 pounds off your chest better? The actual football benefits are pretty much ZILCH. In terms of future benefits on the field a player would be better off watching film the whole time. Or just relaxing and allowing his body to recuperate and heal. When the Combine events become weekly and held in front of 60 or 70 thousand people in stadiums with trophies and money on the line for performance, then you can start pimping the guys who spend all their time training for the events. Or you can just wait a few years for the Olympic track and field events.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, what a lousy way to judge a football player. How well they did on the field. Teams should just send their scouts to Africa, or Khazakstan, or Siberia, and bring back busloads of physical freaks. Give them a couple of weeks of instruction and they're good to go.
For me, the priorities go Film > Athleticism > Interviews >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Accumulated Stats.

If you have 58 sacks in a season, that's great, but if you got 56 of them against true freshman LTs from Division II schools and you regularly get shut down by everybody else, then I really don't care about your NCAA record there.

I mean, Margus Hunt's performance in his bowl game is a lot less impressive when you note that he was lined up against a true freshman, right?
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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For me, the priorities go Film > Athleticism > Interviews >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Accumulated Stats.

If you have 58 sacks in a season, that's great, but if you got 56 of them against true freshman LTs from Division II schools and you regularly get shut down by everybody else, then I could care less about your NCAA record there.

I mean, Margus Hunt's performance in his bowl game is a lot less impressive when you note that he was lined up against a true freshman, right?
Moore played in the best conference in the nation, and had the best overall defensive stats in that conference. What's more he was a consistent producer for all three years he played college ball. Nothing fluky about what he did on the field. Then you bring up the ultimate "workout warrior" in this draft to try to discredit Moore? Seems like you're just invalidating all your own points with that example.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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I didn't like Moore before the combine.
When he was up against Lane Johnson in the bowl game he was non existant. I'm with you on not wanting him period.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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I've heard it said that NFL evaluators value the Combine workouts at no more than 5% of a player's grade in the draft. Most of the ones I've heard speak on the matter say that the medical testing and interview process is by far the most valuable aspect of the event in their eyes. It's more of a draftnik fascination than a scouting one, I think.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Moore played in the best conference in the nation, and had the best overall defensive stats in that conference. What's more he was a consistent producer for all three years he played college ball. Nothing fluky about what he did on the field. Then you bring up the ultimate "workout warrior" in this draft to try to discredit Moore? Seems like you're just invalidating all your own points with that example.
You know who put up possible the greatest stats ever in that same, conference all while being praised as one of the hardest workers out there? Tim Tebow.

As cabbage said, film and athleticism are much more important than accumulated stats because its about projecting how a player's ability will translate to the NFL when going against NFL level talent and athleticism.

Moore doubters such as cabbage, TH, and myself watch Moore on film and see a player who lacks explosion off the line, doesn't have great speed around the edge, and doesn't show explosive power either. The combine results that you so easily dismiss are important because they confirm what we have observed in the film and thus confirm our doubts as to whether or not Moore can produce when playing against NFL O-Lineman.

This graphic offers a glimpse at to why we have concerns with Moore's tape:


You'll notice that 44.4% of Moore's sacks come as coverage sacks, which is something you don't see when you purely look at the stats. His high average sack time and 11.11% of his sacks coming as "speed sacks" are concerning when you consider that Moore is only 250 and doesn't show immense power either (see film and bench). When I watch Moore on film, I see a guy who gets a lot of his sacks by being "slippery", which I have my doubts about translating against NFL level OTs.

I think this sums up my and the majority argument against Moore so you can kind of take it or leave it at that.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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If Moore decided to blow off the combine just because it wasn't an actual football game or directly related to playing an actual game, he's not very smart.

It's not like Damontre enter the combine as a lock top 10 pick.
If he'd shown up at the combine and ran a 4.6 and threw up 25+ reps in the BP, he might be in the discussion for the 1st overall pick.

The combine for many teams is a way to gauge a player's work ethic.

Prospects who don't have the motivation to get into shape for the combine are usually the same players who aren't going to put in the extra work that it requires to be an outstanding professional football player.

Moore at this point looks either immature for not preparing for the combine or a little bit lazy.

Pass rusher is one of the most difficult skillsets to scout and predict how a player will transition once he's in the NFL.

GUys who lack the drive, motivation or work ethic to commit themselves to improving their games in the pros are usually those pass rushers who bust.

Moore to me is a wildcard. I like his film to an extent, but he never really flashed elite athleticism the few times I saw him.

IMO he's not in the class of Dion Jordan or Ziggy Ensah in terms of raw athleticism.
I hope Demontre Moore doesn't take the same approach to his pro day, if he chooses to perform in it at all.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Moore is what he is. No one thought he would test amazingly well at the Combine. He gets his production how he gets it, which is going to be a bit different from anyone else. I'm not arguing those points. The point is that he gets it, gets it pretty consisently against a high level of competition, and gets it at an exceptionally young age and early stage of his development. Most serious draft observers knew long before the Combine that players like Ansah and Hunt would test very well. There were no surprises. But that doesn't make their on field performance any better. Damontre will have had about five years of pro coaching and pro off field workout programs when he is the age they are now. He isn't going to be a big sack total guy, probably, but that is a pretty small part of what goes on in the course of the game or the season on the field. He does all the little things well. He can play a lot of snaps. He is a high character guy who is well liked by his teammates.
He is versatile and humble. Comparing him to Tebow is no put down at all in my eyes. Tebow took the Broncos farther than Manning did, with far less to work with. He's a terrific football player and person. Has a better career record than Sam Bradford from that draft. About the same passer rating. Taken 25 spots later in the draft and earns about 1/10 the money Bradford does.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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When I watch Moore on film, I see a guy who gets a lot of his sacks by being "slippery", which I have my doubts about translating against NFL level OTs.
One thing that gets underrepresented when evaluating college pass rushers is that NFL OTs hold much more often (and much more effectively) than do college OTs. Moore, like every NFL pass rusher, will get held on darn-near every play in the NFL and it will rarely get called (you basically have to try to take a guy's head off to get a holding call some of the time.) "Slippery" is perhaps the hardest thing for a pass rusher to consistently win with in the pros. Even technique guys struggle when transitioning for this reason.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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I still like Damontre as a 34 OLB, but he scares me as a 43 DE.

BTW no one thought he'd run a 4.9 at the combine or put up so few reps on the BP.

For a 6'5, 250# LB/DE to put up less than 15 reps screams that a player didn't train at all for this combine test once the season was over.

I like Tebow too, but you can't compare him to Bradford. Tebow can't read defenses and his accuracy is beyond awful. He's a gamer though, but his QB skills are not NFL caliber.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Moore is what he is. No one thought he would test amazingly well at the Combine. He gets his production how he gets it, which is going to be a bit different from anyone else. I'm not arguing those points. The point is that he gets it, gets it pretty consisently against a high level of competition, and gets it at an exceptionally young age and early stage of his development. Most serious draft observers knew long before the Combine that players like Ansah and Hunt would test very well. There were no surprises. But that doesn't make their on field performance any better. Damontre will have had about five years of pro coaching and pro off field workout programs when he is the age they are now. He isn't going to be a big sack total guy, probably, but that is a pretty small part of what goes on in the course of the game or the season on the field. He does all the little things well. He can play a lot of snaps. He is a high character guy who is well liked by his teammates.
He is versatile and humble. Comparing him to Tebow is no put down at all in my eyes. Tebow took the Broncos farther than Manning did, with far less to work with. He's a terrific football player and person. Has a better career record than Sam Bradford from that draft. About the same passer rating. Taken 25 spots later in the draft and earns about 1/10 the money Bradford does.


Tebow very well may be out of NFL soon. For a reason. That reason is that he sucks.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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This is my post on Moore taken from another thread just a little while ago
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Jared Allen only put up 13 reps with a 1.68 10yd split. Marcus Spears put up 15 @ over 300 pounds. All while Vernon Gholston went for what 37 reps?

Terrell Suggs ran a 4.84 40.

Workout numbers don't really alarm me, if you say you don't like his film thats fine i can respect that. But workout numbers are overrated.

Moore was never believed to be a "speedster" like Kearse, and I think people who don't watch him expected him to be. He ran a 4.72 on campus @ Texas A&M. I think people (who haven't watched him enough) have always overestimated him as an athlete.

As for your link, I've been saying it for a while that he was asked to spy or read the QB a lot of his sacks did come from spying/reading, then releasing to sack the QB. That's not new information.

I'd like to see how many QB pressures he had, because there's tons of times he pressured with no sack.

He can play (both) sides of the line, he can run the arch or make a move inside - great at running stunts.

Watch his film and it's not a guy that runs a 4.9 he runs down WRs and RBs too often for that, I don't care what his numbers are. He was 8-10 yards behind a WR at one point and ran him down and the WR was at full speed running straight. I don't know many WRs that run 5+ seconds 40. If he's there in the 2nd we'd be stupid not to take him (assuming we didn't already take a DE or Carradine is available)

Put on film of him against LSU or OU when he plays primarily all 43 DE and he's a different guy than he is at 3-4 OLB. Pay attention to what offenses he's playing, if he's playing against a mobile QB he's asked to contain, spy and read. Against a pro-style pocket passer, he's usually just asked to go get the QB.

Just my 55 cents
Anyone that saw Moore run saw that he likely hadn't worked on his get off. He was slow at the start and ran an unofficial 4.87 the first time. The 2nd time he clearly pulled up prior to finishing as he pulled a hammy.

Could he have came better prepared to the combine? Yes, I believe he could have. Does that effect what I see on tape? No, it does not.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage View Post
One thing that gets underrepresented when evaluating college pass rushers is that NFL OTs hold much more often (and much more effectively) than do college OTs. Moore, like every NFL pass rusher, will get held on darn-near every play in the NFL and it will rarely get called (you basically have to try to take a guy's head off to get a holding call some of the time.) "Slippery" is perhaps the hardest thing for a pass rusher to consistently win with in the pros. Even technique guys struggle when transitioning for this reason.
I don't think Moore will be drafted for his pass rushing skills. Not that they are bad, I think he comes out with the most career sacks of anyone in this draft, but for his all round defensive skills. So, it's a bit pointless to just focus on that aspect and judge him from there. He can play on the line, play standing up outside, play interior linebacker. Most likely he will shift around a lot, since defensive schemes are becoming more complex in response to offensive schemes becoming more complex. If you're a one dimensional player it's very easy for the offense to negate you.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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I watched three games of this guy and I saw a guy that made very few plays when the play was coming to him and got most of his tackles running things down from the backside. He also does not have an array of pass rush moves or counter moves. I think taking this guy before the second round would be a big mistake. He is very raw and needs a lot of coaching.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Menardo75 View Post
I watched three games of this guy and I saw a guy that made very few plays when the play was coming to him and got most of his tackles running things down from the backside. He also does not have an array of pass rush moves or counter moves. I think taking this guy before the second round would be a big mistake. He is very raw and needs a lot of coaching.
Well if he got 85 tackles running players down from the backside, his foot speed can't be all that bad. SEC running backs and quarterbacks aren't exactly slugs when they're carrying the football.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Moore finished top 5 in two of the four events he participated in at the Combine. Ziggy Ansah finished top 5 in one of six events he participated in. How does one guy come off as an athletic schlub and the other as a physical phenom?
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