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Old 03-07-2013, 09:59 AM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by JeffSamardzijaIRISH View Post
Landry Jones is Matt Schaub 2.0. He's good enough and talented enough to win you games, but he's not good enough to become elite.
And as Joe Flacco and Eli Manning have shown us, you don't need to be "elite" to win a Super Bowl.

You just have to be good enough (i.e. top-15, borderline top-10) and play on a team with a good defense and good offensive line.

Landry Jones could easily be the next Eli Manning / Joe Flacco if he lands on the right team.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
And as Joe Flacco and Eli Manning have shown us, you don't need to be "elite" to win a Super Bowl.

You just have to be good enough (i.e. top-15, borderline top-10) and play on a team with a good defense and good offensive line.

Landry Jones could easily be the next Eli Manning / Joe Flacco if he lands on the right team.
Yeah....no he can't. He's not nearly as good as either one of them.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Yeah....no he can't. He's not nearly as good as either one of them.
You don't know that.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Landry Jones has more in common with Matt Schaub than ELi/Roethlisberger/Flacco.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Landry Jones has more in common with Matt Schaub than ELi/Roethlisberger/Flacco.
And Matt Schaub could easily win a Super Bowl with the Texans.

People were saying the same things about Joe Flacco prior to this past year's playoffs that they are saying about Schaub.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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And Matt Schaub could easily win a Super Bowl with the Texans.

People were saying the same things about Joe Flacco prior to this past year's playoffs that they are saying about Schaub.

Matt Schaub and Landry Jones need a tall glass of tough juice before they ever come close to being the centerpiece of teams that win a SB.

The difference is Flacco has now DONE it. He's not potential anymore. He's produced the goods in record fashion.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Matt Schaub and Landry Jones need a tall glass of tough juice before they ever come close to being the centerpiece of teams that win a SB.

The difference is Flacco has now DONE it. He's not potential anymore. He's produced the goods in record fashion.
Yes, and prior to doing it, people considered him a Schaub-esque player who melted in the big moments against good teams.

The same way people could re-write their perception of Schaub if the Texans go on to the win the Super Bowl next year.

It's not impossible that Schaub and the Texans could go on to win the Super Bowl in the near future.

Just as prior to 2012, it was not impossible for Flacco and the Ravens to go on a Super Bowl run despite people doubting the possibility of doing so.

The same applies to Landry Jones.

Any QB can win a Super Bowl as long as A.) he's at least a top-15 QB, i.e. competent and B.) he plays with a good surrounding cast i.e. defense, o-line, etc
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Matt Schaub and Landry Jones need a tall glass of tough juice before they ever come close to being the centerpiece of teams that win a SB.
- Something that I'm sure nearly every poster on this forum was saying about Joe Flacco as recently as this last December.

If a player has the skillset and gets the right talent around them and the team goes on a run, anything is possible.
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MJD is an exception to every rule.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Flacco has always been a better QB in the playoffs than he's been during the regular season.

I don't know if that's something any QB can become. In some cases it's a matter of player maturation at the QB position. But for others I just don't think they thrive in those kind of pressure cooker situations.

Anything's possible. But I don't think it's probable that Landry Jones or even Schaub really become great playoff QBs.

Winning a SB isn't like making a stew.
You don't throw all the right ingredients into the pot, add water and stir, and viola you win a Lombardi.

What Flacco and Eli did2x requires an intangible quality IMO not many NFL QBs have.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Eli & Flacco both played at an elite level during their Superbowl runs. Flacco the past 2 years before this made enough plays in those AFC championship t win but was let down by his teammates. I'm getting sick of people acting like the standard of a Superbowl winning QB has been lowered rather than Flacco stepping up.

Landry Jones is a 3rd/4th rounder would you could maybe hope he could develop into a starter but also might just be a backup. He played in an offense that pumped up his numbers. Put Luck and RG3 in that offense and they both significantly out produce Jones no doubt.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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Landry Jones could easily be the next Eli Manning / Joe Flacco if he lands on the right team.
Landry Jones is not going to be that.

Really, you are just splitting hairs by saying "So you're saying there's a chance!".

We are more likely to be hit by a meteorite than for Landry Jones to be even a 6 year backup in this league. His internal clock simply cannot be accelerated AT ALL.

His decision making is sluggish, and simplistic. Really, saying he doesn't handle pressure is being extremely kind. While yes, all QBs' productivity can be compromised under a heavy rush, the fact is that NFL QBs -- if they are going to succeed -- must be capable of making defenses pay for stacking the box and sending 5 or more.

Landry can't do that. In fact, we saw a very similar QB in Seattle last year who really was an NFL precursor to Jones. Tarvaris Jackson.

He had great size. Excellent arm strength. Better mobility. Accurate (in terms of completion percentage). Really, he had the physical tools one might hope for in a QB.

He came over in 2011 and to be honest, I was pleasantly surprised at his leadership/mental makeup. He was hard working, commanded the team, played through pain and even injury and did all of the things you'd hope a leader of a football team would do in the locker room.

There was a couple problems with him. The same things I see with Landry.

1. Horrible anticipation. Landry, like Tarvaris, has/had a good completion percentage. Suggesting they were accurate with the ball. But in reality, they are judicious with the ball. Tarvaris and Jones both have to see a guy open before they throw the ball. They don't anticipate him getting open. They don't see 'what will be open'. So they both miss passing windows that pass for typical NFL standard open receivers.

To their credit, they don't make a bad situation worse by forcing balls. But what it does manifest itself in, is they hold on to the ball. Even to maddening lengths. Waiting for a guy to be WIDE open, and not just merely open.

And you can forget about ball placement. The ability to throw guys open in the clear. The ability to throw the pass where you should best throw it versus throwing a ball that the WR has to adjust to. I can't tell you how many times Tarvaris would lead his receivers right into an onrushing safety getting them hurt. Yes, the ball hit his receiver on the hands. But throwing on the wrong side of WRs forcing them to turn or fade into a devastating hit and causing an easy completion to be one that is much more difficult -- that's on the QB. It doesn't show up obviously in the completion percentages.

2. Inability to process information quickly. Tarvaris did a decent job of going through his progressions. Jones still has to work on that but there's no expectation that he can't make a similar improvement. But Jones is very Tarvaris like when teams bring the rush. Both of them have extreme difficulty knowing what to do when it happens. It's like there was no way they ever dreamed that pressure would come. They get very 'deer in the headlights' and don't anticipate or functionally speed up their clocks even when they clearly see pressure coming.

I think this dovetails into what we see about their lack of anticipation. The requirement that these guys need to see a guy already open before they even decide to throw the ball. Their indecision (or inability to see what the correct decision is before it presents itself in an obvious manner) is why both these QBs fail to deliver under pressure.

Jones is no different to me than Tarvaris Jackson. In fact, I'd say if he develops into that kind of player and has that kind of career (40+ starts), he should feel very lucky. He is not even close to starter material and likely won't be so after two offseasons worth of work.

He is not remotely close to Eli Manning. Physically, he's not even in the Brock Osweiler class of passer.

I'm not going to say he's *never* going to be an NFL QB. But his physical skills are not going to help him in the slightest become even a QB that dresses on sundays. He absolutely must be able to handle pressure because all rookies get a steady diet of that FOREVER until they prove they can make teams pay for bringing it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Flacco has always been a better QB in the playoffs than he's been during the regular season.

I don't know if that's something any QB can become. In some cases it's a matter a player maturation at the QB position. But for others I just don't think they thrive in those kind of pressure cooker situations.

Anything's possible. But I don't think it's probable that Landry Jones or even Schaub really become great playoff QBs.

Winning a SB isn't like making a stew.
You don't throw all the right ingredients into the pot, add water and stir, and viola you win a Lombardi.

What Flacco and Eli did2x requires an intangible quality IMO not many NFL QBs have.

Flacco in the playoffs

2008 season:

2009-01-04 BAL@MIA 9/23 39.1% 135 yards 0 TD 0 INT 59.1 QB rating
2009-01-10 BAL@TEN 11/22 50.0% 161 yards 1 TD 0 INT 89.4 QB rating
2009-01-18 BAL@PIT 13/30 43.3% 141 yards 0 TD 3 INT 18.2 QB rating

2009 season:

2010-01-10 BAL@NWE 4/10 40.0% 34 yards 0 TD 1 INT 10.0 QB rating
2010-01-16 BAL@IND 20/35 57.1% 189 yards 0 TD 2 INT 48.4 QB rating

2010 season:

2011-01-09 BAL@KAN 25/34 73.5% 265 yards 2 TD 0 INT 115.4 QB rating
2011-01-15 BAL@PIT 16/30 53.3% 125 yards 1 TD 1 INT 61.1 QB rating

2011 season:

2012-01-15 BAL@HOU 14/27 51.9% 176 yards 2 TD 0 INT 97.1 QB rating
2012-01-22 BAL@NWE 22/36 61.1% 306 yards 2 TD 1 INT 95.4 QB rating


We all know that the 2012 season' playoffs were very good for Flacco.

However, what his history shows is that Flacco was basically hot garbage in the playoffs until the 2011 season, when he played two *good* but not great games against the Texans and Patriots.

So a QB can be inconsistent in the regular season, absolutely suck in the playoffs for his first three years as a playoff QB, and then get better and go on a Super Bowl run.

I don't see why other QBs like Matt Schaub (first year of playoff experience was this year, despite being older than Flacco I still think he can do it) or Landry Jones (he could suck just as badly as Flacco for his first three playoff runs and still come out a Super Bowl MVP) can't do the same thing.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Eli & Flacco both played at an elite level during their Superbowl runs. Flacco the past 2 years before this made enough plays in those AFC championship t win but was let down by his teammates. I'm getting sick of people acting like the standard of a Superbowl winning QB has been lowered rather than Flacco stepping up.
Any QB can learn to "make plays". Especially when he has a good team around him. There's nothing magical about a team playing well as a group and the QB making a play here and there to take advantage.

Last year in 2011 Joe Flacco made enough plays in the playoffs but got unlucky enough against the Patriots that his teammates let him down. This year, he was lucky enough and his teammates helped him out.

The playoffs are all about luck and team playing well together. That's it.

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Landry Jones is a 3rd/4th rounder would you could maybe hope he could develop into a starter but also might just be a backup. He played in an offense that pumped up his numbers. Put Luck and RG3 in that offense and they both significantly out produce Jones no doubt.
As long as he can be top-15 QB he can win games and go on a Super Bowl run if he is lucky enough and his team is good enough, which is the same you can say for any top-15 QB.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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Flacco in the playoffs

2008 season:

2009-01-04 BAL@MIA 9/23 39.1% 135 yards 0 TD 0 INT 59.1 QB rating
2009-01-10 BAL@TEN 11/22 50.0% 161 yards 1 TD 0 INT 89.4 QB rating
2009-01-18 BAL@PIT 13/30 43.3% 141 yards 0 TD 3 INT 18.2 QB rating

2009 season:

2010-01-10 BAL@NWE 4/10 40.0% 34 yards 0 TD 1 INT 10.0 QB rating
2010-01-16 BAL@IND 20/35 57.1% 189 yards 0 TD 2 INT 48.4 QB rating

2010 season:

2011-01-09 BAL@KAN 25/34 73.5% 265 yards 2 TD 0 INT 115.4 QB rating
2011-01-15 BAL@PIT 16/30 53.3% 125 yards 1 TD 1 INT 61.1 QB rating

2011 season:

2012-01-15 BAL@HOU 14/27 51.9% 176 yards 2 TD 0 INT 97.1 QB rating
2012-01-22 BAL@NWE 22/36 61.1% 306 yards 2 TD 1 INT 95.4 QB rating


We all know that the 2012 season' playoffs were very good for Flacco.

However, what his history shows is that Flacco was basically hot garbage in the playoffs until the 2011 season, when he played two *good* but not great games against the Texans and Patriots.

So a QB can be inconsistent in the regular season, absolutely suck in the playoffs for his first three years as a playoff QB, and then get better and go on a Super Bowl run.

I don't see why other QBs like Matt Schaub (first year of playoff experience was this year, despite being older than Flacco I still think he can do it) or Landry Jones (he could suck just as badly as Flacco for his first three playoff runs and still come out a Super Bowl MVP) can't do the same thing.
I count 2010 as a solid playoff run for Flacco too.

Why are you so jacked up for Landry Jones and Matt Schaub???
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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I count 2010 as a solid playoff run for Flacco too.

Why are you so jacked up for Landry Jones and Matt Schaub???
I just hate the meme that "you have to be special and elite to win a Super Bowl" and that somehow winning a Super Bowl sprinkles magic pixie dust on a QB.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that Super Bowl wins are primarily about luck - i.e. getting hot at the right time in the playoffs - and quality team play as a whole. I believe that you need a top-15/top-10 QB to compete regularly, but beyond that it doesn't matter if your QB is top-3 or just barely top-10, because a #10 QB with a top-3 defense can beat a #1 QB with a bottom-16 defense.

Therefore, if I'm a franchise, I would be perfectly happy with Matt Schaub or Landry Jones, because if the team were ever to assemble enough talent around them they'd be fully capable of doing what Eli Manning and Joe Flacco did despite not being top-5 QBs.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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I have seen Landry Jones buy an US Weekly for his girlfriend. Take from that what you will.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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I have seen Landry Jones buy an US Weekly for his girlfriend. Take form that what you will.
All I took from that was poor grammar.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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I just hate the meme that "you have to be special and elite to win a Super Bowl" and that somehow winning a Super Bowl sprinkles magic pixie dust on a QB.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that Super Bowl wins are primarily about luck - i.e. getting hot at the right time in the playoffs - and quality team play as a whole. I believe that you need a top-15/top-10 QB to compete regularly, but beyond that it doesn't matter if your QB is top-3 or just barely top-10, because a #10 QB with a top-3 defense can beat a #1 QB with a bottom-16 defense.

Therefore, if I'm a franchise, I would be perfectly happy with Matt Schaub or Landry Jones, because if the team were ever to assemble enough talent around them they'd be fully capable of doing what Eli Manning and Joe Flacco did despite not being top-5 QBs.

Good QBs create their own luck. I don't like it when people dismiss the outcome of a 60 minute football game as 'lucky'.

You don't beat an 18-0 football team in the SB because you were lucky, or even win enough playoff games to get to that point.
You think Eli and Flacco won SBs because they were lucky??

The last QB IMO who won a SB without playing at a high level in the playoffs was Trent Dilfer with Brad Johnson a close second.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
And as Joe Flacco and Eli Manning have shown us, you don't need to be "elite" to win a Super Bowl.

You just have to be good enough (i.e. top-15, borderline top-10) and play on a team with a good defense and good offensive line.

Landry Jones could easily be the next Eli Manning / Joe Flacco if he lands on the right team.
No he can't. Landry Jones can't go through his progressions....so throw that out the window.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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And there you have it from a clear headed OU fan. This should wrap things up nicely.

On a side note, it's curious to me how when white QBs have physical skills to play the position but come up short, you almost never here comments such as "He's a headcase" or "He has to improve on the mental aspects of the game." I think what the poster said about Landry is completely on point, he needs to learn from a vet at the position and also see sports psychologist. I have seen Landry Jones flat out give up on plays in the moment. Late game 3rd and 4th down plays in which you could tell he really didn't believe the pass would be a completion, but he wanted to get the play over with.
Bleacher report just puplished a Ranking list of Clutch Stats.. Third Down passing is a critical measure of pressure 3rd and long your gonna get rushed.. Guess who ranked Number one with 68% completion 21 TD's and 0 Ints and by far the most attempts... Landry was ranked the best and ranked Second in Red Zone and top for in all other.... Your Knock on him is unfounded... He threw the ball so much more that he had more chances to mess up or get pressured... Some QB's just "take the sack" to protect their stats..
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Here are the cumulative stats for all prospects I added yds TD's and Ints and Sack but averaged completion and YPA full years as starter..

Jones threw the ball so many more times than anyone else that he had way more chances to be pressured and more opportunities to make mistakes...

Landry Jones 4yr 16646 yards TDs 123,attempts 2183 YPA 7.5 63% ave comp Ints 52 sacks 54
Geno Smith 3yr 11353 yards Td’s 97 attempts 1465 YPA7.9 66% ave comp. Ints 21 sacks 78
Matt Barkly 4 year 12327 yards TD’s 116 attempts 1562 YPA 7.88 63.8% ave comp Ints 48 sacks 58
Tylor Wilson 2 yr 7025 yards TD 45 attempts 838 YPA 8.38 62.6 ave comp Ints 19 sacks 40
Ryan Nassib 3yr 8718 yards TD 67 attempts 1244 6.98 ypa 60% ave comp Ints 27 sacks 76
Mike glennon 2 yr 7085 yards TD 62 attempts 1017 YPA 6.9 60% ave comp Ints 29 sacks 67
Tylor Brey 3 yr 7444 yards TD 69 attempts 922 ypa 8.17 58,5 ave comp Ints 28 35 Sacks
EJ Manuel 3 yr 6058 yards TD 41 Attempts 698 YPA 8.67 66.6 ave comp Ints 18 sacks 59
Zack Dysert 4 yr 12016 yards Td 73 Attempts 1672 7.37 YPA I 63.75 ave comp Ints 51 sacks 159
Matt Scott 1 year 3620 yards 27 TD Attempts 499 Ypa 7.26 ints 14 60.35 14 Sacks
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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No he can't. Landry Jones can't go through his progressions....so throw that out the window.
Thats not even true... George Whitefield called him the Master Distributor... There were like 7 guys who had tons of catches.. Stats for top recievers where not that great.. Considering Jones threw it 4000 yards a year...
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Bleacher report just puplished a Ranking list of Clutch Stats.. Third Down passing is a critical measure of pressure 3rd and long your gonna get rushed.. Guess who ranked Number one with 68% completion 21 TD's and 0 Ints and by far the most attempts... Landry was ranked the best and ranked Second in Red Zone and top for in all other.... Your Knock on him is unfounded... He threw the ball so much more that he had more chances to mess up or get pressured... Some QB's just "take the sack" to protect their stats..
Yeah, the knock is unfounded. And by the way, it's just my knock, correct?

Second in the redzone, but his coach replaced him inside the 10. Clutch stats don't tell you which teams he did what against either. He's not a big time QB, end of story. If he was, given his physical skills, he'd be a top ten pick. He is no where close.

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Old 03-07-2013, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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Thats not even true... George Whitefield called him the Master Distributor... There were like 7 guys who had tons of catches.. Stats for top recievers where not that great.. Considering Jones threw it 4000 yards a year...
Ummm did you watch that hack after he lost Ryan Broyles? or how about when Kenny Stills wasn't open? He is a 1 read guy. If the 1st and primary read isn't there he panics. He's not a starting caliber QB in the NFL.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SickwithIt1010 View Post
Ummm did you watch that hack after he lost Ryan Broyles? or how about when Kenny Stills wasn't open? He is a 1 read guy. If the 1st and primary read isn't there he panics. He's not a starting caliber QB in the NFL.

2010 Broyles had 1622 yards recieving Jones Threw for 4700 yards...
2011 Broyles had 1157 yards recieving Jones Threw for 4400 yards..
2012 Kenny Stills 957 yards Jones threw for 4200 yards
Do the math thats a whole lot of passing yards to other receivers your charge is completely wrong.. Jones threw it 2183 times Geno threw it 1460 if he couldnt go through is reads no way he completes 63%.. only 20 percent were screens... Geno had 33% screens....
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