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Old 03-13-2013, 06:42 PM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
If you don't think Tom Brady wants Welker back, you're nuts.
The Patriots don't want him back. He signed for 2 years, 12 million with the Broncos. That's it. The Patriots know he's a product of their system, which is why they made little attempt to sign him. The fact that Welker is only pulling in that amount also demonstrates the rest of the NFL is aware of the same thing.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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Which totally explains why we put the franchise tag on him last year and spent 10 million for one season.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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The Pats tried to sign Welker in 2011 to a 2 year, $18 mil contract. Welker declined thinking he was worth more. They franchised him last year and Welker signed an offer many believe the Pats would've matched in FA but didn't get the chance.

Welker was never viewed as a disposable or replaceable player by NE.

This talk that the Pats didn't want Welker back is not supported by the facts.
Welker is what, 34 years old??
$12 mil is nice scratch for a slow white 'system' slot WR who's job could be filled by 30+ other NFL WRs(!).

Welker is very talented in what he does, and now the Pats are scrambling to replace his production in their offense.
This was the worst possible outcome from their end.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
The Pats tried to sign Welker in 2011 to a 2 year, $18 mil contract. Welker declined thinking he was worth more. They franchised him last year and Welker signed an offer many believe the Pats would've matched in FA but didn't get the chance.

Welker was never viewed as a disposable or replaceable player by NE.

This talk that the Pats didn't want Welker back is not supported by the facts.
Welker is what, 34 years old??
He turns 32 in May. That's not that old. Nice try, though.

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$12 mil is nice scratch for a slow white 'system' slot WR who's job could be filled by 30+ other NFL WRs(!).
1. It's $12 million over 2 years, which is only $6 million a year.
2. The Patriots just signed Danny Amendola to a bigger deal than what Welker got with the Patriots. Is Danny Amendola

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very talented in what he does,
too?

Give me a break. That's the stupidest, most meaningless thing you can possibly say about a football player. The guy who holds for field goals and extra points is "very talented at what he does," too. Yeah, Welker is very talented at catching screens and running behind blockers, then darting out of bounds for a 7 yard gain.

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and now the Pats are scrambling to replace his production in their offense.
This was the worst possible outcome from their end.
Oh yeah, that's why they wouldn't even match the Broncos' offer and just went to freak'n Amendola, committing more to him than they would have needed to to keep Welker.

This is utterly laughable. You were seemingly on my side in this thread earlier, but it seems you are determined to be wrong about every single topic there is. Whatever I say, you just say the opposite, now.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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Which totally explains why we put the franchise tag on him last year and spent 10 million for one season.
Who spent it? It's Bob Kraft's money. They tagged him for one year instead of signing him to a long-term extension. Why do you think that is?

Management refused to commit long-term cap space to him. They don't care about Kraft giving him $10 million for one season in a year where they have more cap room than they know what to do with.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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Congratulations to the Patriots for giving a five year deal to a guy who will play less games in five years than Welker will play in two. I don't know what Welker is made of, but it isn't human flesh, the guy absorbed some insane hits over the middle and kept on ticking.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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I suppose I should ask, what are Welker's strengths specifically? Route-Running? Hands? Durability in absorbing contact?

I mean, with that sort of skill-set he'd be a safety valve in the slot, someone who forces underneath coverage instead of the primary receivers being ganged up. I almost wanna think of Steve Largent there.

Guys like Thomas and Decker can really only benefit with a guy like Welker drawing attention underneath and letting them engage only the secondary.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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I suppose I should ask, what are Welker's strengths specifically? Route-Running? Hands? Durability in absorbing contact?

I mean, with that sort of skill-set he'd be a safety valve in the slot, someone who forces underneath coverage instead of the primary receivers being ganged up. I almost wanna think of Steve Largent there.

Guys like Thomas and Decker can really only benefit with a guy like Welker drawing attention underneath and letting them engage only the secondary.


Largent wasn't an underneath receiver.

The thing with Welker is he sees a lot of zone and linebackers/nickel corners. Historically, while Manning has been able to use slot receivers, he doesn't lock in on them like Brady does. You can look at the numbers Stokley and Austin Collie put up for a possible preview.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:02 AM    (permalink
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Wes Welker is currently 28th in the NFL in receiving yards. I wanted to post this now, when he has played all the games up until now, since he's going to miss the Chargers game.

Do you think maybe, just maybe, the guy is/was actually overrated?
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:10 AM    (permalink
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Wes Welker is currently 28th in the NFL in receiving yards. I wanted to post this now, when he has played all the games up until now, since he's going to miss the Chargers game.

Do you think maybe, just maybe, the guy is/was actually overrated?
Ok, so are we just going to ignore that he plays in an offense which also has the 7th player in the league re yards? How about the 9th? The 4th highest guy on the Broncos team in terms of yards is Julius Thomas who is 49th in the league. That is 4 receiving options in the top 50 in the NFL. No other team has more than 2 players within the top 50.

I'm pretty sure that Manning can only throw the ball to one person at a time.
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:29 AM    (permalink
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Ok, so are we just going to ignore that he plays in an offense which also has the 7th player in the league re yards? How about the 9th? The 4th highest guy on the Broncos team in terms of yards is Julius Thomas who is 49th in the league. That is 4 receiving options in the top 50 in the NFL. No other team has more than 2 players within the top 50.

I'm pretty sure that Manning can only throw the ball to one person at a time.
How many legitimate #1 receivers, or according to some, legitimate HOF-caliber receivers, rank 28th in receiving yards after playing every game for the first 13 games of a season at 32 years of age?

Edit: When playing with a first ballot HOF QB.

Don't you think if he was that good, he would've been able to steal the spotlight away from Thomas and Decker?

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Old 12-12-2013, 05:02 AM    (permalink
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How many legitimate #1 receivers, or according to some, legitimate HOF-caliber receivers, rank 28th in receiving yards after playing every game for the first 13 games of a season at 32 years of age?

Edit: When playing with a first ballot HOF QB.

Don't you think if he was that good, he would've been able to steal the spotlight away from Thomas and Decker?
In games he has taken the spotlight from those guys, in the same way in games Julius Thomas has taken the spotlight etc.

Do you really think Eric Decker is the 9th best WR in the NFL this year? Don't get me wrong, I like Decker but he receives favorable matchups more than most.

Against KC, he got 2 long passes from Manning running the same skinny post route. He did well to get inside leverage against Cooper but really it wasn't as though he did something extraordinary.

Numbers are important because at the end of the day production counts in the NFL. But there are far more factors in play.

At the end of the day from a statistical point of view Wes Welker has produced like no other WR in the history of the NFL. He has also been a large part of some of the greatest offenses in history. If you want to disregard all he has done because he doesn't fit your prototype then that's fine, that is your prerogative, however I think it is silly to say "OMGZZZ he doesn't run 9 routes all day he can't be good."

At the end of the day the aim for the offense is to score points. It's nice to say we will just score 80 yard TDs every time but that is a ridiculous notion. Even the best teams in history have had to methodically move the ball down the field. There has been no WR in the last 7 years or so who has been a better chain mover than Welker.

You can point to the level of defender he has faced, be it slot CBs, safeties or LBs but it's not Wes Welker's role to change that. If Adrian Peterson gets a 30 yard run against a 7 man box is that somehow worth less than a 6 yard run against an 8 man box?
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:34 AM    (permalink
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In games he has taken the spotlight from those guys, in the same way in games Julius Thomas has taken the spotlight etc.

Do you really think Eric Decker is the 9th best WR in the NFL this year? Don't get me wrong, I like Decker but he receives favorable matchups more than most.

Against KC, he got 2 long passes from Manning running the same skinny post route. He did well to get inside leverage against Cooper but really it wasn't as though he did something extraordinary.

Numbers are important because at the end of the day production counts in the NFL. But there are far more factors in play.

At the end of the day from a statistical point of view Wes Welker has produced like no other WR in the history of the NFL. He has also been a large part of some of the greatest offenses in history. If you want to disregard all he has done because he doesn't fit your prototype then that's fine, that is your prerogative, however I think it is silly to say "OMGZZZ he doesn't run 9 routes all day he can't be good."

At the end of the day the aim for the offense is to score points. It's nice to say we will just score 80 yard TDs every time but that is a ridiculous notion. Even the best teams in history have had to methodically move the ball down the field. There has been no WR in the last 7 years or so who has been a better chain mover than Welker.

You can point to the level of defender he has faced, be it slot CBs, safeties or LBs but it's not Wes Welker's role to change that. If Adrian Peterson gets a 30 yard run against a 7 man box is that somehow worth less than a 6 yard run against an 8 man box?
A lot of this is beside the point. The only point right now that I'm making is Welker left the NE offense for another team with a first ballot HOF QB, and his numbers took a big hit to the point where he's 28th in receiving yards. It seems like pretty solid evidence he's been severely overrated, never mind everything else I've brought up in the past.

The stuff about him producing numbers like no other WR in the history of the NFL just isn't true. It's only when people focus on number of receptions, which is a meaningless statistic (a reception in and of itself has no value, it's yards and touchdowns that matter), that they start talking about Welker in the context of history. He has no meaningful place in history in terms of yards or touchdowns.

And even just looking at quantity of receptions, Andre Johnson is about to tie Welker in 100+ catch seasons, and Brandon Marshall has a decent shot of doing that this year as well.

You should only compare a player's production to the production of players in his era. And right now, receivers all over the league are producing at a rate that beats his.
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:50 AM    (permalink
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A lot of this is beside the point. The only point right now that I'm making is Welker left the NE offense for another team with a first ballot HOF QB, and his numbers took a big hit to the point where he's 28th in receiving yards. It seems like pretty solid evidence he's been severely overrated, never mind everything else I've brought up in the past.

The stuff about him producing numbers like no other WR in the history of the NFL just isn't true. It's only when people focus on number of receptions, which is a meaningless statistic (a reception in and of itself has no value, it's yards and touchdowns that matter), that they start talking about Welker in the context of history. He has no meaningful place in history in terms of yards or touchdowns.

And even just looking at quantity of receptions, Andre Johnson is about to tie Welker in 100+ catch seasons, and Brandon Marshall has a decent shot of doing that this year as well.

You should only compare a player's production to the production of players in his era. And right now, receivers all over the league are producing at a rate that beats his.
Okay, then we will take a purely statistical look at it. Looking at some of the top WRs in the NFL from 2007 here's how they stack up in terms of yards and TDs:

Wes Welker: 8237 yards, 47 TDs
Andre Johnson: 8578 yards, 44 TDs
Brandon Marshall: 8536 yards, 52 TDs
Reggie Wayne: 8092 yards, 43 TDs
Larry Fitzgerald: 8052 yards, 63 TDs
Vincent Jackson: 6659 yards, 46 TDs
Anquan Boldin: 6475 yards, 43 TDs
Steve Smith: 7208 yards, 37 TDs

The only WR in that timeframe who is far and away producing better than Welker is Calvin Johnson who may well go down as the GOAT someday if he can continue at this level for another decade.

So yes, Welker gets lots of catches, but he is also near the top in terms of yards and TDs within that time.

EDIT:

To add to my point, one of the most important things for an offense is to stay on the field. None of the above mentioned WRs, including Calvin Johnson has caught more first down passes than Welker.

Numbers can say what we want them to say. You look at his numbers this year and assume he isn't very good. However when I bring up numbers you will undoubtedly find other holes such as yards per catch, the competition he faced against etc.

And that is fine. I am not saying that Welker is the type of guy who will average 15 yards per catch in the X position, but that's not his game and it never has been.

What Welker has done through his career is catch balls, move the chains and score TDs on a comparable level with some of the best WRs in the NFL.

There is literally nothing i can say to change your mind and that is okay, but just come out and say you don't think Welker is good and leave it at that. I have shown through the above numbers that he has produced at a combined level that few others have ever done, and have explained previously what Welker is great at. If you don't agree, fine. But I don't agree with your premise that Welker isn't good because you say so
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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Welker will be on his SECOND team that breaks the passing touchdown record.

Coincidence?
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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He turns 32 in May. That's not that old. Nice try, though.
For a slot WR with a knee injury... it is.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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For a slot WR with a knee injury... it is.
His knee is fine now. The ACL was repaired years ago. Now he's having concussion problems, but as far as I know, those are new.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:35 PM    (permalink
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Welker will be on his SECOND team that breaks the passing touchdown record.

Coincidence?
...yes

strong yes...
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Old 12-13-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Not a chance. Manning won't feed him like Brady did. Thomas and Decker will take precedence. Welker will do ~ 80-850-4, and probably still get voted to the Pro Bowl, thanks to the idiots.
Overshot the mark on the catches and yards, undershot on TDs. But the yards/catch average prediction...beautiful. *pats self on back*
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Old 12-21-2013, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Wes Welker is currently 28th in the NFL in receiving yards. I wanted to post this now, when he has played all the games up until now, since he's going to miss the Chargers game.

Do you think maybe, just maybe, the guy is/was actually overrated?
Saying that Welker had played in every game to that point is a massive ******* stretch. He was hurt and pretty limited the previous 4-5 games before this past week.
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Old 12-21-2013, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 12-21-2013, 11:56 PM    (permalink
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Saying that Welker had played in every game to that point is a massive ******* stretch. He was hurt and pretty limited the previous 4-5 games before this past week.
Hurt how? Aside from getting a concussion in the Chiefs game, he was as healthy as anyone.
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