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Old 03-14-2013, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
I think when Buffalo dumped Fitzpatrick, there is a chance they take a shot on Geo Smith, they have little else and waiting on Nassib is pretty risky.
I'm not saying Smith is a top 10 talent but in today's NFL you must get your QB in round 1 where he is tied down to a 5 year contract, if you wait till round 2, you only have him for 4 years before his contract must be renewed and if he is successful, his salary will completely restructure your teams ability to sign its FA's. Ask Baltimore how a QB's salary effects salary structure.
The position is worth a lot more than any other. Starting quarterbacks earn nearly double the salary of the next highest position. If you get a starter out of college, which a lot of teams have done lately, you're getting him for four years at a tiny fraction of his market value. Rookie salaries don't take field position into account. They are based strictly on draft position. A wide receiver taken in the top five starts out earning more than the average starting wide receiver around the league. A quarterback taken top five only earns a third the average of starting quarterbacks.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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I have yet to get corroboration on this but during the combine a few of the NFLN analysts discussed that part of the concern with Geno Smith are questions about his ability to command an NFL locker room.

They said that teams had questions about his intangibles. I saw the Mooch segment and he didn't strike me as the charismatic, face of the franchise, command the respect of a 10-year vet type of kid. He's into art. He was clearly trying to show well on the TV spot, relaxed and everything. But I didn't buy it. He also forgot two key components to a diagram Mooch gave him.

He also had somewhat of a meltdown against K-State on the sidelines when they stymied him.

I will say that Aaron Rodgers' interviews probably scared off some teams. He's very laid back, sarcastic. That was a mistake. But Rodgers was an amazing pro prospect. It was questions about his attitude/Tedford that made him fall so far. Smith has no where near the film Rodgers had. Rodgers had a lightning quick release and good mechanics. Terrific accuracy. Very few on-field question marks aside from the lack of IDEAL size.

So I might be totally off with Smith. I don't know him. I do know that I've heard whispers and seen some indications that he might not have the intangibles teams look for.

Usually on pretty much every highly touted QB's scouting report, leadership/intangibles are lumped together and pretty much go without saying. For Smith, it's only one thing - film study. That he's a film junkie. That's great, but only a small % of what NFL teams are looking for in a quarterback.

*This is all speculation based on some comments, what I've gleaned from very little of him speaking, body langauge, etc.

If he falls far in the draft, I think these issues might be the reason or at least part of it.


It's tough. I like his arm and he's accurate enough but he has some big-time issues with footwork and inconsistent decision-making. But the hardest part is that a QB with issues cannot be evaluated without knowing the person. He simply can't. At least 25% of the total evaluation for a top QB has to be intangibles. How hard he'll work. How smart he is. How he works with teammates and his ability to be a leader of men and command a team. Usually I just fill out that 25%. With Smith, I can't. He got visibly discouraged when KState stopped their O and the comments around him don't give me confidence.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
I think when Buffalo dumped Fitzpatrick, there is a chance they take a shot on Geo Smith, they have little else and waiting on Nassib is pretty risky.
I'm not saying Smith is a top 10 talent but in today's NFL you must get your QB in round 1 where he is tied down to a 5 year contract, if you wait till round 2, you only have him for 4 years before his contract must be renewed and if he is successful, his salary will completely restructure your teams ability to sign its FA's. Ask Baltimore how a QB's salary effects salary structure.
Everyone develops different though. Kaepernick is already producing in his second season. Some quarterbacks take a lot longer, or even show promise as a rookie. Unfortunately you can't put a financial time stamp on a player and think about how you are going to pay them after their contract is almost over since you don't know for certain how that player will pan out in those five or four years. I think teams just need to worry about finding the right guy first regardless of round.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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I never said that, I've said that Smith and the rest of the QBs are really underrated all along. I think he should go top three, but Jacksonville made the least sense. It would be nip and tuck between he and Gabbert, there is less than a year age difference between them, and whoever lost the competition wouldn't have a lot of trade value. Unless Gabbert's arm injury is more serious than we know.
That wasn't for you my friend. There are no shortage of posters here who despite professing to do their own independant "film study" and analysis tend to sound eerily similar to the shifty draft pundits.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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I have yet to get corroboration on this but during the combine a few of the NFLN analysts discussed that part of the concern with Geno Smith are questions about his ability to command an NFL locker room.

They said that teams had questions about his intangibles. I saw the Mooch segment and he didn't strike me as the charismatic, face of the franchise, command the respect of a 10-year vet type of kid. He's into art. He was clearly trying to show well on the TV spot, relaxed and everything. But I didn't buy it. He also forgot two key components to a diagram Mooch gave him.

He also had somewhat of a meltdown against K-State on the sidelines when they stymied him.

I will say that Aaron Rodgers' interviews probably scared off some teams. He's very laid back, sarcastic. That was a mistake. But Rodgers was an amazing pro prospect. It was questions about his attitude/Tedford that made him fall so far. Smith has no where near the film Rodgers had. Rodgers had a lightning quick release and good mechanics. Terrific accuracy. Very few on-field question marks aside from the lack of IDEAL size.

So I might be totally off with Smith. I don't know him. I do know that I've heard whispers and seen some indications that he might not have the intangibles teams look for.

Usually on pretty much every highly touted QB's scouting report, leadership/intangibles are lumped together and pretty much go without saying. For Smith, it's only one thing - film study. That he's a film junkie. That's great, but only a small % of what NFL teams are looking for in a quarterback.

*This is all speculation based on some comments, what I've gleaned from very little of him speaking, body langauge, etc.

If he falls far in the draft, I think these issues might be the reason or at least part of it.


It's tough. I like his arm and he's accurate enough but he has some big-time issues with footwork and inconsistent decision-making. But the hardest part is that a QB with issues cannot be evaluated without knowing the person. He simply can't. At least 25% of the total evaluation for a top QB has to be intangibles. How hard he'll work. How smart he is. How he works with teammates and his ability to be a leader of men and command a team. Usually I just fill out that 25%. He got visibly discouraged when KState stopped their O and the comments around him don't give me confidence.
Now, the leadership/charisma issue is one of the few legit issues with Smith. I have no problem with that. But if he is heroic enough on the field, leadership will come a lot easier to him.

Usually I just fill out that 25%. With Smith, I can't.

Well, like I said, it's a legit criticism, but it's not like he is weak in the character department as a whole. He is very intelligent, he is very tough and will stand in the pocket against a big rush and deliver the ball accurately and he is a film and practice rat. I hope you aren't writing off all so called "intangibles."
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Now, the leadership/charisma issue is one of the few legit issues with Smith. I have no problem with that. But if he is heroic enough on the field, leadership will come a lot easier to him.

Usually I just fill out that 25%. With Smith, I can't.

Well, like I said, it's a legit criticism, but it's not like he is weak in the character department as a whole. He is very intelligent, he is very tough and will stand in the pocket against a big rush and deliver the ball accurately and he is a film and practice rat. I hope you aren't writing off all so called "intangibles."
I've seen him make some very impressive throws under pressure.

But I've also seen him not protect the ball and not feel the rush in the pocket.

And it's also difficult to project much because he simply does not ever hitch up into the pocket. I don't know if that's coached or his tendency but he's going to have to learn how to step up and move within a pocket. That's footwork. He doesn't have good footwork in a perfectly clean pocket. What's going to happen when things are moving much faster, players are bigger and better coming after him, and the decision must be quicker? His footwork is a big issue on it's own, let alone dealing with pressure.

And I know I'm being unfair. My questioning of his intangibles is my own opinion based on very little facts. It's just what I've gathered and it makes sense to me. I may be totally off base.

But I think if I'm right, it explains a lot. And if he drops in the draft, I'll be sure I was right.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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I think the player just has to be natural and unpretentious to fill the leadership aspect. There is no prototype. Pretty much every top quarterback around the league is a unique personality. Smith certainly doesn't strike me as pretentious in any way.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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I think the player just has to be natural and unpretentious to fill the leadership aspect. There is no prototype. Pretty much every top quarterback around the league is a unique personality. Smith certainly doesn't strike me as pretentious in any way.
There's no prototype but all successful QBs have to be able to lead the team.

Everyone has a different style, but if the QB doesn't command respect of the rest team, it's a big issue. He needs to have the "it" factor. The presence. It comes in many shapes and sizes but you know when you see it.

Look at Ponder. They lost their best player because he didn't have any confidence in Ponder.

Look at Luck. His presence completely shifted the entire team's mentality. That D was pretty much just as talented as it was in 2011.

And Smith may be that Aaron Rodgers type. Not as in-your-face as you'd like but someone who buckles down when it's time to be serious and let's his play speak. He's not as intense but they know because of how good he is that when it's time to shut up - it's his huddle and he CAN put everyone on that team in a position to succeed.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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I think the player just has to be natural and unpretentious to fill the leadership aspect. There is no prototype. Pretty much every top quarterback around the league is a unique personality. Smith certainly doesn't strike me as pretentious in any way.
He did have one moment that was little snarly, I believe it was during the K State game. He was visibly distraught on the bench. Might not mean much, but it was caught on camera in a meaningful game. On the flips side, his pass protection was being exposed a few games in a row and I know it had to have been frustrating, but has to keep that inside.

Again, no matter how you weight it, this is at least a legit criticism. So much of what I have been reading about him ranges from blowing things out of proportion to straight up fallacy. One of the worst ones is this nonesense that he is (particularly) inaccurate on deep balls. Deep ball throws are one of his greatest strengths!
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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There's no prototype but all successful QBs have to be able to lead the team.

Everyone has a different style, but if the QB doesn't command respect of the rest team, it's a big issue. He needs to have the "it" factor. The presence. It comes in many shapes and sizes but you know when you see it.

Look at Ponder. They lost their best player because he didn't have any confidence in Ponder.

Look at Luck. His presence completely shifted the entire team's mentality. That D was pretty much just as talented as it was in 2011.

And Smith may be that Aaron Rodgers type. Not as in-your-face as you'd like but someone who buckles down when it's time to be serious and let's his play speak. He's not as intense but they know because of how good he is that when it's time to shut up - it's his huddle and he CAN put everyone on that team in a position to succeed.
On the flip side, Joey Harrington had all the leadership in the world and his team eventually rebelled against him because his on field performance didn't match his Rah-Rah.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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[quote=gpngc;3302094]There's no prototype but all successful QBs have to be able to lead the team.

Look at Ponder. They lost their best player because he didn't have any confidence in Ponder.

[quote]

Harvin's issues with Ponder had nothing to do with his personality. It was his play on the field. You play well and win, you're a leader. You don't, you aren't. It isn't any more complex than that. Roethlisberger is about as smart as a goalpost, and a jerk to boot, but as long as he won the team followed him.
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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does anyone else think it looks like the Eagles are geared to take Geno?

they just signed Connor Barwin to a 6/$36 mil and Cary Williams for 3/$17 mil which filled two of their biggest needs, though you could certainly argue CB is still a need.

anyway, pretty much their whole staff watched his pro day and he would fit right into Chip Kelly's system.
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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does anyone else think it looks like the Eagles are geared to take Geno?

they just signed Connor Barwin to a 6/$36 mil and Cary Williams for 3/$17 mil which filled two of their biggest needs, though you could certainly argue CB is still a need.

anyway, pretty much their whole staff watched his pro day and he would fit right into Chip Kelly's system.
Looking at Philly's roster, I still think OT is a greater need than QB.
Chip Kelly can win with Vick if he gives him some protection.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Default geno pro day video

link: http://youtu.be/o_Ewe1Z5Imk

link of mayock talking up Geno Smith w/little proday vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZxOiCqyaR4

he is the bafoon who initially said there werent any 1st round Qbs in this draft, and now is saying Geno is top 10.

Last edited by findthedr : 03-14-2013 at 07:37 PM. Reason: added another link
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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He did have one moment that was little snarly, I believe it was during the K State game. He was visibly distraught on the bench. Might not mean much, but it was caught on camera in a meaningful game. On the flips side, his pass protection was being exposed a few games in a row and I know it had to have been frustrating, but has to keep that inside.
I do think some of the criticism of Smith's body language is valid, but it is getting a little overblown. I don't think he necessarily needs to keep it all in, just channel his frustration a little more productively. Many of the criticisms of Smith's lack of composure could be said about Tom Brady, but Brady clearly commands the respect of his teammates. The only big issue with the K-State "meltdown" is that he was just stewing by himself, and not necessarily with the team, but I don't think a couple losses of composure are as bad as everybody is making it out to seem.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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looks like we're seeing a classic overreaction to a Pro Day

Wow! The QB threw the ball great against air!
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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link: http://youtu.be/o_Ewe1Z5Imk

link of mayock talking up Geno Smith w/little proday vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZxOiCqyaR4

he is the bafoon who initially said there werent any 1st round Qbs in this draft, and now is saying Geno is top 10.
Elmer Fudd is now claiming that he has always said that Geno Smith is a top ten QB talent wise. He must have whispered it off camera in his bedroom.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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You can't lead on a football team unless you're a GOOD football player.
THere are plenty of guys who have the stuff to be leaders, but simply can't demand the respect of teammates because they can't perform between the hashmarks.

Being a leader as a QB is knowing how and when to be vocal with your teammates, when to encourage them and when to berate them for poor play.
Overdo any element and either you come across as a phony or a ballbuster.

If Geno shows his teammates in practice that he's a baller, they'll listen to him when he speaks in the huddle and respond to what he says.

I don't really question Smith's leadership abilities. He's a hard worker, he carries himself like a serious person.
Also I don't agree that Aaron Rodgers was considered this all-world elite prospect who fell just because of his laid back attitude and being a Tedford system QB.

He only started two years at Cal after transferring in from JUCO, and his senior year stats were far from overwhelming or dominant, (66% completions/24 TDs, 8 INTs/2566yds passing).

Rodgers the pro is 10x the QB he was at Cal. When a player improves that much in the pros, it's not something anyone can predict, and to suggest scouts anticipated Rodgers in 2005 would become the player he is today is wishful thinking.

With the rookie salary cap I'd think more teams would be bullish on drafting Smith. It wasn't like in 2005, where if a team screwed up the first overall pick, they were in the hole for a 6-year, $50 mil contract, $24 mil guaranteed.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:08 AM    (permalink
duesouth
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
looks like we're seeing a classic overreaction to a Pro Day

Wow! The QB threw the ball great against air!
Indeed - after numerous other cases it really makes you wonder why scouts/teams never learn...

The scary thing for me as a Jags fan is all of a sudden we are apparently interested in him - I know our GM, HC and owner have changed, but I really hope we've learned from the Blaine Gabbert mistake.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:25 AM    (permalink
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Well, I am now pretty much at peace with this whole situation. The complaint I have had this off season regarding Smith is the treatment he received by the media. The negativity surrounding him was exaggerated to say the least. What I saw was a highly skills, tough, top ten QB during the year and when it's all said and done, he will be a top ten QB in the NFL draft, not a second rounder. If you hear a beeping sound while you are reading this, it's the sound of the loudmouth pundits and the folks who worship them blindly all backpadelling in unison. It's a quite a beautiful sight IMO. I'd like to give a lot of credit to Ron Jaworski for keeping his mouth shut until his evaluation of the top QBs was complete rather than shooting his mouth off early and later having to backtrack.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:28 AM    (permalink
Shane P. Hallam
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Indeed - after numerous other cases it really makes you wonder why scouts/teams never learn...

The scary thing for me as a Jags fan is all of a sudden we are apparently interested in him - I know our GM, HC and owner have changed, but I really hope we've learned from the Blaine Gabbert mistake.
Learned by...sticking with Blaine Gabbert?
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:36 AM    (permalink
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Learned by...sticking with Blaine Gabbert?
I don't think we are Shane - we'll take a QB fairly early.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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I don't think we are Shane - we'll take a QB fairly early.
I think I misinterpreted. Are you saying that the Jags taking Geno Smith would be not learning from Gabbert?
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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looks like we're seeing a classic overreaction to a Pro Day

Wow! The QB threw the ball great against air!
Thatís a rather narrow viewpoint though.

These workouts shouldnít be weighted more than film observation or interview sessions, but these showcases are part of the process for a reason. You can learn things from them. For example, given that most of Geno Smithís problems stem from footwork issues, I guarantee some NFL teams asked him about it at the Combine. Genoís agent hired Chris Wienke to work with him on it. That shows cognizance of a problem and initiative to solve it. Great things to see in a prospect.

So, at that point, it becomes:

Has he improved his footwork?
If so, how much has it improved?
Even if heís mechanical, is his bouncing less profound?
Are old habits still creeping into his base?
Is he showcasing pro throws or college throws?
Is he attempting to do some things that are unnatural to him?
If not, is he hiding something?
Ignoring his completion percentage, how accurate does he look?
Are these good catches or good throws? Or a combination of both?
Is his ball placement sharp? Is he hitting receivers in stride?
Is he flashing back-shoulder potential?
Is he mimicking dropbacks and pressures? Or just pitching from a perfect pocket?

And then the individual interview:

How much rep work are you doing per day?
What kind of rep work are you accustomed to?
Does your rep work normally change from off-season to in-season?
What did West Virginia ask you to do in terms of progressions?
How much of your playbook emphasizes backside validation?
How much practice time was dedicated to mastering backside validation?
What are your favorite concepts and throws?
What pressure packages and coverage shells frustrate you?
Did you make line calls? Protection shifts? How often?
Did you intentionally ignore your running ability in college?
Do you have an aversion to running some zone-read looks in the pros?
How complicated was your offensive terminology?
What were your huddle procedures?
What were your best displays of leadership?
Do you have anything to prove?

Itís not as reliable as film breakdown, but itís a valuable supplement. A stellar individual workout that answers questions justifies a rise. Some teams just evaluated Geno from the outside. Geno is a prospect that needed to be evaluated from inside-out. Yes, there are concerning issues (some of which might be quite debilitating) on tape. But itís laziness to dismiss him on that alone. Thatís how teams miss out on prospects. Dig deeper. Find the underlying reasons. That leads to a more accurate assessment.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Well, I am now pretty much at peace with this whole situation. The complaint I have had this off season regarding Smith is the treatment he received by the media. The negativity surrounding him was exaggerated to say the least. What I saw was a highly skills, tough, top ten QB during the year and when it's all said and done, he will be a top ten QB in the NFL draft, not a second rounder. If you hear a beeping sound while you are reading this, it's the sound of the loudmouth pundits and the folks who worship them blindly all backpadelling in unison. It's a quite a beautiful sight IMO. I'd like to give a lot of credit to Ron Jaworski for keeping his mouth shut until his evaluation of the top QBs was complete rather than shooting his mouth off early and later having to backtrack.
Two things.

Number 1 - he hasn't been drafted in the top ten yet.

Number 2 - the argument had and always will be that no QB in this draft is worth a top ten pick. Meaning we wouldnt take him. It was never that no team would take one there. All it takes is one team.
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