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Old 03-15-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
dan77733
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
The last position I'm worried about is the back-up to the back-up. I like Tolizen and its obvious JH likes him too. The offense will just go back to being more traditional if anything were to happen to CK. My take is there's a few QBs JH likes heading into the draft, and we'll draft one. They haven't even contacted Josh Johnson, who is a FA. I guess they've moved on from him. But the QBs on the market are nothing to sneeze at. Its really nothing there to choose from. Im just wondering why we haven't been linked to ANY free agent TEs, with Walker gone. Seems a bit odd but in Baalke we trust so I wont dwell on it too much.
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Losing Walker is going to hurt too because he was asked to do alot and did, but your right about Goldson. The facts are this; Baalke was never going to pay Goldson 8 mil a year. I've recently just came to the realization that it wasn't about signing Rogers. Fundamentally, I think Baalke doesn't believe a FS is worth that much. ANY free safety. Just like I believe he doesn't believe any CB is worth what Revis will demand, which is why he never considered trading for him.

He has a value on certain position and he doesn't want to exceed. Bowman is one of the best ILBs in the league but his deal was very team friendly, compared to the extensions guys like Donald Washington and Laurinatius got. He gives guys a number and says we can work out something in this ball park. If not, he'll let them walk.

He refuses to overpay, even for his own talent....which is weird and beautiful all at the same time. Most ppl have no problem overpaying their own guys, even just a little.

I think its the position you play with Baalke. Pass-rushers and QBs, I think he'll do whatever to keep because their such vital personnel in today's NFL. Everyone else, he has no problem seeing guys walk out the door for the last time if there's even a hint that he has to overspend to keep them. Maybe part of that is he trusts his eye to spot capable but cheap labor. Might be a little arrogant in that respect but so far, he has done an excellent job at that.

Goldson was never coming back. I can see it clearly now. He knew last year, in fact. No matter how good of a season Goldson had, he was never going to pay a FS, 8 mil a year. The only reason he was franchised is because the 6.7 mil price tag was right inline to what he felt Goldson was worth a year lol.

But for the life me, I don't understand why he's going after these old DBs and not Huff. A guy who has the versatility this defense needs and brings a dimension that could elevate this defensive secondary, even more than re-signing Goldson would have. I dont get it...but In Baalke, We Trust so I digress....
I understand that Baalke has a limit on every player and that's fine but personally, at the very least, he should have franchised Goldson again for $7.5m. Then, I would have tried to draft a FS and SS this year (which I think he's going to try to do anyway) to replace Goldson and Whitner next year. I just believe that you shouldnt let a player leave especially a good one until its absolutely necessary. Seriously, if a veteran like Boldin is worth $6m for one season, then Goldson is easily worth $1.5m more for one more season.

Either way, have to wait and see what happens.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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On a side note - Lions re-signed FS Louis Delmas to a two year contract so you can take him off the list and Phillips signed a one year deal with Philly yesterday so he's gone too.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Niners will miss Walker's run-blocking the most though his speed was underrated by a lot of opponents. VD will still open up opps for whoever the 2nd TE will be, as they'll see a lot of looks in the flat and on short curl or crossing routes with one-on-one coverage. Having Boldin will soften the loss of D-Walk's run blocking skills though.

I still think that the Niners get Nnamdi at this point.

Woodson maybe. Depending if he can get a starting FS spot anywhere else that has a chance at the ring next year.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Well if were going by his track record, Baalke doesn't overpay for ANYONE. Even the signings I don't like, are Niner-friendly deals. And Skuta is a very underrated talent. Like I stated in main free agency thread, NO GM gets more bang for the buck than Baalke. Im more than inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt that whatever Skuta got, it was fair market value and well worth it when all is said and done. Especially with all the things Skuta brings to the table.
See Rodgers, Carlos
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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On a side note - Lions re-signed FS Louis Delmas to a two year contract so you can take him off the list and Phillips signed a one year deal with Philly yesterday so he's gone too.
I questioned if they would re-sign Delmas because if he played up to his potential on a one or two year deal they would be putting themselves in the same situation they were just in with Goldson.

I wouldn't be surprised in some sets to see Boldin at least get a look at H back and see if he can do some of the things Delaine did (at least I think he can). Aso I believe will be a Niner and Woodson as well. It sounds like Woodson wants to be a Niner and is waiting to hear back from them.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Craig Dahl is the next safety to come and visit...

Baalke seems to like to go after the white guys no one else wants
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Any news on Aso or Woodson ?
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Craig Dahl is the next safety to come and visit...

Baalke seems to like to go after the white guys no one else wants
I think one of the Niners beat writers said that Baalke was a coach at the college Dahl went to. I don't know if that means anything or if it's just a fun fact.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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See Rodgers, Carlos
Your looking at the overall contract. Rogers will never see the full fours years, nor the maximum amount that deal is worth. He signed essentially, a 2 year deal with a average based salary of around 6.4 million the fist two seasons. That's a steal for an above average CB who can play anywhere on the field. And the way the contract is structured, we can cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. Like I said, Baalke doesn't over pay for anyone.


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Old 03-15-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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I understand that Baalke has a limit on every player and that's fine but personally, at the very least, he should have franchised Goldson again for $7.5m. Then, I would have tried to draft a FS and SS this year (which I think he's going to try to do anyway) to replace Goldson and Whitner next year. I just believe that you shouldnt let a player leave especially a good one until its absolutely necessary. Seriously, if a veteran like Boldin is worth $6m for one season, then Goldson is easily worth $1.5m more for one more season.

Either way, have to wait and see what happens.
Didn't Baalke let Goldson test the FA waters last year and Dashon came up empty? I don't understand why people think this year is any different. It's pretty obvious the team wouldn't pay such a high price for him. In the salary cap world, you can't give every player what they demand. You just can't. You have to make tough decisions. We all liked Dashon, but his new deal is astronomical and Baalke doesn't want to tie up all that money at the FS position with big money players coming up for new contracts soon.

And in the real world, you don't just throw the franchise tag around so easily. Goldson wanted a huge contract last year and didn't get it. He wanted it this year too. Franchising him would keep him from getting it 2 years in a row. That is a recipe for major discontent and possibly a holdout. Things aren't as black and white as you make them seem.

Also, you can't compare salaries for guys at different positions (Boldin and Goldson). It doesn't work like that.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Didn't Baalke let Goldson test the FA waters last year and Dashon came up empty? I don't understand why people think this year is any different. It's pretty obvious the team wouldn't pay such a high price for him. In the salary cap world, you can't give every player what they demand. You just can't. You have to make tough decisions. We all liked Dashon, but his new deal is astronomical and Baalke doesn't want to tie up all that money at the FS position with big money players coming up for new contracts soon.

And in the real world, you don't just throw the franchise tag around so easily. Goldson wanted a huge contract last year and didn't get it. He wanted it this year too. Franchising him would keep him from getting it 2 years in a row. That is a recipe for major discontent and possibly a holdout. Things aren't as black and white as you make them seem.

Also, you can't compare salaries for guys at different positions (Boldin and Goldson). It doesn't work like that.
Damn, Borat its like you were reading my mind....

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Old 03-15-2013, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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Damn, Borat its like you were reading my mind....
Well, first I read your mind, then I plagiarized the **** out of it.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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Well, first I read your mind, then I plagiarized the **** out of it.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Borat again.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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Didn't Baalke let Goldson test the FA waters last year and Dashon came up empty? I don't understand why people think this year is any different. It's pretty obvious the team wouldn't pay such a high price for him. In the salary cap world, you can't give every player what they demand. You just can't. You have to make tough decisions. We all liked Dashon, but his new deal is astronomical and Baalke doesn't want to tie up all that money at the FS position with big money players coming up for new contracts soon.

And in the real world, you don't just throw the franchise tag around so easily. Goldson wanted a huge contract last year and didn't get it. He wanted it this year too. Franchising him would keep him from getting it 2 years in a row. That is a recipe for major discontent and possibly a holdout. Things aren't as black and white as you make them seem.

Also, you can't compare salaries for guys at different positions (Boldin and Goldson). It doesn't work like that.
How could Goldson test FA a year ago when he was franchised? Franchising him a second year wouldnt have caused any problems because after all, he's getting $7.5m guaranteed and would still be young enough to get a big deal next season. Besides, if Goldson was going to cause problems while franchised, he would have done it last year. Also, if he causes problems, the team could just squat on his rights for a year while his career goes down the drain. Karlos Dansby was tagged twice by the Cardinals because they had no one to replace him and didnt want to give him his long term contract and there were no problems there. It can be done if thats what the GM wants to do. In this case, Baalke decided not to. I'm just hoping that it doesnt bite him in the ass.

You can compare positions. WR is important and so is FS. Look at the Eagles. They have no safeties whatsoever since Dawkins was allowed to leave as a FA. And well, you saw the results the last few seasons. For me personally, I think that paying Goldson $7.5m for one more season while drafting his (and Whitner's) replacements would have been a better move than acquiring Boldin and his $6m via trade.

I know why they acquired Boldin but a better move WR wise would have been to go after Steelers RFA WR Emmanuel Sanders for a 3rd round draft pick. A late third rounder for a young WR like him who wouldnt even cost that much money wise would have been a better move. According to rotoworld, he can play all three WR spots, is young (26) and has 4.4 speed. If Patriots get him and the contract is good, that might be the steal of FA.

Teams are scared of RFA and I dont know why. It makes no sense to me. I can sort of understand if the team that has the RFA has a lot of cap room and can match any offer but a team like the Steelers who have virtually no cap room to match any offer should be taken full advantage of.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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In draft news I am really liking Jordan Reed's fit as Delaine Walkers replacement in the second or third round.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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In draft news I am really liking Jordan Reed's fit as Delaine Walkers replacement in the second or third round.
Except he has no idea what to do when blocking.

I kinda like Vance McDonald as his replacement. I like these athletic/versatile guys that come out of Rice.
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Except he has no idea what to do when blocking.

I kinda like Vance McDonald as his replacement. I like these athletic/versatile guys that come out of Rice.
Walker didn't either when he came into the league. I have confidence in the staff that they can coach him up.
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Old 03-16-2013, 02:00 AM    (permalink
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No Dan, he's 28. He'd be 29 and trying to get his first long-term deal had we franchised him. It may only be a year difference but in football terms and dealing with free agency, a year is an eternity. Especially for a guy who would be looking to sign a long-term deal, but would turn 30 in the first year of said deal. GMs would hold that against him. And he would hold it against us that we made him play two years straight under the tag, with no security, in the prime of his professional career. And especially if Baalke knows he had no plans to give him the money he was looking for anyway. That's not the image you want to put out there to not only the rest of the league and future FAs, but to the guys in your own locker room....that you don't care about taking care of good players, just milking them for all they're worth, then tossing them to the side when you've benefited enough off of them. Football players have to get all they can, when they can. If Baalke had no intention of giving him a long-term deal at the price he wanted, it made no sense to hold him hostage for another year. Goldson would have definitely not been a happy camper.

Plus, your missing the point that the franchise tag for Goldson would have been 7.4 million. If Baalke didn't want to pay him 8 mil, why the hell would he pay a mere $600, 000 less?

As for comparing positons, 6 million is reasonable for a WR, though I feel its a little high for Boldin. 8 million for a safety is damn near Pro Bowl CB money. Its unheard of really. And that's really the point. No matter how good you or I think Goldson is, I don't believe in paying him anywhere near what he got from the Bucs. I knew some team would give it to him, but he would have to be the most complete, flawed-free FS in the league for me to even begin to feel comfortable about him getting paid like that. As good as I think Goldson is, he couldn't do everything the elite guys at the position can. So that price tag wasn't worth it.

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Old 03-16-2013, 05:11 AM    (permalink
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Your looking at the overall contract. Rogers will never see the full fours years, nor the maximum amount that deal is worth. He signed essentially, a 2 year deal with a average based salary of around 6.4 million the fist two seasons. That's a steal for an above average CB who can play anywhere on the field. And the way the contract is structured, we can cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. Like I said, Baalke doesn't over pay for anyone.


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ancisco-49ers/
Carlos will make 7.3 million this year and there is no way in hell he is worth that much so yes, Baalke did overpay. If we cut Rodgers next year we have to pay 3 million in penalties....wow what a great deal.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:52 AM    (permalink
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Carlos will make 7.3 million this year and there is no way in hell he is worth that much so yes, Baalke did overpay. If we cut Rodgers next year we have to pay 3 million in penalties....wow what a great deal.
I think VA's point was missed here regarding the numbers of the contract. The average salary for the first two years of the contract is in the 6 million range (I actually think it's less than the 6.4 number he gave you). That number does not scream overpaid to me.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-franc...carlos-rogers/

I don't know where the 3 million in penalties comes from - remaining signing bonus? And if that's the case, a 3 million dollar hit as opposed to the 8 million he would count against the cap seems like we are in fact saving 5 million.
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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I would love Reed in our offense. He was great at catching the ball. Yes his blocking is locking some. But our staff will be able to fix it. We could easily grab him in the 3rd or fourth with our extra picks.

I still hope we also grab a kicker in those two mid rounds. I don't want any more old kickers who die out at the end of season why we're in the play offs .
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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No Dan, he's 28. He'd be 29 and trying to get his first long-term deal had we franchised him. It may only be a year difference but in football terms and dealing with free agency, a year is an eternity. Especially for a guy who would be looking to sign a long-term deal, but would turn 30 in the first year of said deal. GMs would hold that against him. And he would hold it against us that we made him play two years straight under the tag, with no security, in the prime of his professional career. And especially if Baalke knows he had no plans to give him the money he was looking for anyway. That's not the image you want to put out there to not only the rest of the league and future FAs, but to the guys in your own locker room....that you don't care about taking care of good players, just milking them for all they're worth, then tossing them to the side when you've benefited enough off of them. Football players have to get all they can, when they can. If Baalke had no intention of giving him a long-term deal at the price he wanted, it made no sense to hold him hostage for another year. Goldson would have definitely not been a happy camper.

Plus, your missing the point that the franchise tag for Goldson would have been 7.4 million. If Baalke didn't want to pay him 8 mil, why the hell would he pay a mere $600, 000 less?

As for comparing positons, 6 million is reasonable for a WR, though I feel its a little high for Boldin. 8 million for a safety is damn near Pro Bowl CB money. Its unheard of really. And that's really the point. No matter how good you or I think Goldson is, I don't believe in paying him anywhere near what he got from the Bucs. I knew some team would give it to him, but he would have to be the most complete, flawed-free FS in the league for me to even begin to feel comfortable about him getting paid like that. As good as I think Goldson is, he couldn't do everything the elite guys at the position can. So that price tag wasn't worth it.
Considering that GM's release players for any reason including age and whatnot, how franchising Goldson a second year would make any difference is beyond me. As for paying $7.4m compared to what Goldson is looking for, there's differences...

First, you dont have to worry about scrambling for a replacement like they're doing now....second, there's no signing bonus and no long term deal which doesnt hurt the team whatsoever cap wise and third, considering everyone does whats best for them, whats best for the team was to keep Goldson for at least another year and try to win the SB this year while keeping everyone pretty much intact.

Personally, the $8m a season wouldnt have been a problem for me to pay. Its the $22m guaranteed that is surprising but at the same time, im guessing its heavily backloaded which means majority of the contract, he'll never see. It's all about the structure of the contract. You put guaranteed money up front early with low base salaries and high base salaries in the later years. That way, if the player declines, he already got his guaranteed money, you dont take any cap hits and you would save whatever the huge base salary is over the last year or two of the deal.

Sorry but Boldin getting $6m for a year without an extension means that he's basically this year's version of Randy Moss which to me is a waste of money. To me, Goldson is far more important than Boldin is going to be and if our secondary gets burned with a rookie or an old veteran who doesnt have it anymore, than everyone here will be second guessing Baalke.

And when Rogers most likely gets released in a year from now after signing a four year deal and others are allowed to walk, you dont think that could hurt the locker room and morale? Come on. End of the day, its a business and in this business, the main goal should be to win the SB, not just appear in it. To me, franchising Goldson would have been a good business move all around because you avoid having to replace him, avoid a huge signing bonus and guaranteed money like he received from TB and a long term deal while keeping your defense intact.

We're looking to sign Woodson who's basically another Rogers. An older player who's more a SS than a FS and coming off any injury. Unless Woodson was to play like Rogers did in 2011, I think that it will be a bad move and if he struggles or plays bad early, what's the alternative? Spillman? A rookie? Come on.

This team is right ******* there and instead of keeping the players they should keep and releasing (or not resign) the players they should let go, they do the opposite.

Jean Francois got way too much money for just a few games and spot duty here and there. Walker didnt get overpaid like I thought he was. If he can just catch the ball, he'll be an upgrade over Cook in TEN. The main player was Goldson and when you dont already have a replacement in place or a player you KNOW you're getting, you dont let the guy leave.

Goldson isnt my favorite player but when I look at other teams that have crap in the secondary, it makes me appreciate that while he may not be elite, Goldson is still a top 5 FS and you dont let a guy like that leave.

And I cant wait to see what happens next off-season when it comes time to pay Aldon, Crabtree and Kaepernick. Seriously, Baalke cant just put a set price and expect the player to take it. You have to at the very least give a close competitive offer as opposed to an insult of an offer.

But whatever, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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I think VA's point was missed here regarding the numbers of the contract. The average salary for the first two years of the contract is in the 6 million range (I actually think it's less than the 6.4 number he gave you). That number does not scream overpaid to me.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-franc...carlos-rogers/

I don't know where the 3 million in penalties comes from - remaining signing bonus? And if that's the case, a 3 million dollar hit as opposed to the 8 million he would count against the cap seems like we are in fact saving 5 million.
Thank you, you beat me to it. And the only reason it's even remotely close to a 3 mil hit is because they restructured his contract so they could sign Bowman, which gave him more guaranteed money down the road, but a lesser cap hit last year so they could fit Bowman's 2012 number under the cap.

And in the link I provided, it shows what players were paid, versus how well they performed in 2012. Rogers was just about in line with his contract in terms of production.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Considering that GM's release players for any reason including age and whatnot, how franchising Goldson a second year would make any difference is beyond me. As for paying $7.4m compared to what Goldson is looking for, there's differences...

First, you dont have to worry about scrambling for a replacement like they're doing now....second, there's no signing bonus and no long term deal which doesnt hurt the team whatsoever cap wise and third, considering everyone does whats best for them, whats best for the team was to keep Goldson for at least another year and try to win the SB this year while keeping everyone pretty much intact.

Personally, the $8m a season wouldnt have been a problem for me to pay. Its the $22m guaranteed that is surprising but at the same time, im guessing its heavily backloaded which means majority of the contract, he'll never see. It's all about the structure of the contract. You put guaranteed money up front early with low base salaries and high base salaries in the later years. That way, if the player declines, he already got his guaranteed money, you dont take any cap hits and you would save whatever the huge base salary is over the last year or two of the deal.

Sorry but Boldin getting $6m for a year without an extension means that he's basically this year's version of Randy Moss which to me is a waste of money. To me, Goldson is far more important than Boldin is going to be and if our secondary gets burned with a rookie or an old veteran who doesnt have it anymore, than everyone here will be second guessing Baalke.

And when Rogers most likely gets released in a year from now after signing a four year deal and others are allowed to walk, you dont think that could hurt the locker room and morale? Come on. End of the day, its a business and in this business, the main goal should be to win the SB, not just appear in it. To me, franchising Goldson would have been a good business move all around because you avoid having to replace him, avoid a huge signing bonus and guaranteed money like he received from TB and a long term deal while keeping your defense intact.

We're looking to sign Woodson who's basically another Rogers. An older player who's more a SS than a FS and coming off any injury. Unless Woodson was to play like Rogers did in 2011, I think that it will be a bad move and if he struggles or plays bad early, what's the alternative? Spillman? A rookie? Come on.

This team is right ******* there and instead of keeping the players they should keep and releasing (or not resign) the players they should let go, they do the opposite.

Jean Francois got way too much money for just a few games and spot duty here and there. Walker didnt get overpaid like I thought he was. If he can just catch the ball, he'll be an upgrade over Cook in TEN. The main player was Goldson and when you dont already have a replacement in place or a player you KNOW you're getting, you dont let the guy leave.

Goldson isnt my favorite player but when I look at other teams that have crap in the secondary, it makes me appreciate that while he may not be elite, Goldson is still a top 5 FS and you dont let a guy like that leave.

And I cant wait to see what happens next off-season when it comes time to pay Aldon, Crabtree and Kaepernick. Seriously, Baalke cant just put a set price and expect the player to take it. You have to at the very least give a close competitive offer as opposed to an insult of an offer.

But whatever, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Of course it would be easy for you to pay, your not the GM. Your missing the point of its CERTAIN POSITIONS that he's not willing to overspend. Aldon will defintely get his money. So will CK. Now other guys like Crabtree and A. Davis and Iupati we might have to lose but that's the price you pay when you continue to draft so well. You can't pay everybody, I repeat YOU CAN'T PAY EVERYBODY.

We're so close yet two years now, we didn't get it done. Goldson and the secondary had their opportunity and they blew it. They had two back to back horrendous games in the post-season. I don't blame Baalke for not standing pat. You stay still, your already behind in the NFL. I'm in no way saying it was Goldson's fault but sometimes change is good, though we might not see it. Sure I wanted him back. But not at the expense of mortaging our cap. And not on the tag again where he would hold out all off-season and miss TC and pre-season, which would effect chemistry and maybe some morale among guys in the secondary. Too big of a risk. And I'm sure Goldson and his agent expressed to them how they would feel if they did franchise him again. And I'm pretty sure they didn't tell them he'd be fine with it.

And we're not scrambling to find a replacement. Baalke prepared for this. That's why he signed Spillman to a extenstion last year. Its one of the reasons Robinson was drafted. Baalke knew this day was coming. And he knew he he would have options in free agency, which he is exploring. He also knew he would have a **** load of draft picks this year to address the problem yet again. We're not scrambling. Having a future HOF possibly come in a play the position for a year is not necessarily a bad thing. Woodson was playing good until he got hurt. He had a solid game against us to begin the year. And he's not more of a SS. Packers played him there because Burnett sucked so bad around the box. Woodson is actually a better tackler. But he's a fromer CB. He should be able to transition to FS just fine. And who says its going to be Woodson who replaces Goldie? You don't know what Baalke is working on. He could be a working on a trade for someone better than Goldson. The season is a long ways from starting. Let's not plan our demise just yet.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Fire Baalke right Dan?
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