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Old 02-27-2013, 05:48 AM    (permalink
Zycho32
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
I would never blame one player for a team failure.

Still...13 carries, -1 yards in a 16-12 loss to the Packers in a 94 NFC wildcard playoff game. How could he not be part of the failure in a game like that?



Or they just abandoned a guy who totaled -1 yards on 13 carries. At what point do you just say, "Enough. We need to start throwing the football?"

The Lions offense had a guy named "Herman Moore." He was pretty ******* good. Really ******* good, in fact. I don't think people realize how good he was. Top 5 of the mid-90s. They also got production out of Perriman and Morton with their scheme. Kevin Glover was a beast. Lomas Brown was solid. Jeff Hartings was rock solid.

The Lions had a pretty good collection of talent on offense in the 90s. But their biggest star had flaws that were downplayed by the media and fans.
That playoff game was very notable, but Green Bay did in fact play with a defensive gimmick; Reggie White played Defensive Tackle that game, exploiting the interior of the Detroit line. And this was back when Reggie was still at the tail-end of his prime as a destructive pass rusher. Remember how much Russell Maryland was involved during that Dallas game? Reggie dialed that up to eleven.

The overall Green Bay D played in a 4-3 defense with the majority of the pass rush coming from the defensive line while the linebackers played more 'cover/contain' roles. That aspect didn't change by switching Reggie inside, and with him blowing up their guards repeatedly, that allowed the rest to focus on the passing game the Lions were forced to turn to.

And like we noted, it takes a real bullrusher of a runner, something in the Earl Campbell mold, to fight through THAT level of a disaster. I don't think even Emmitt could've done much if his guards were getting destroyed like that. He was great at piledriving past his mammoth O-Line, but that O-Line still had to hold up at the point of attack first. And say what you will about the Dallas O-Line being phone booth brawlers by and large, but they were always gameplanned to play that style and were never caught with their pants down like Detroit was in the '94 Playoffs.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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Worst idea ever. Barry was the GOAT IMO.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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I'm starting to think Zycho is some retired NFL guy, just dropping knowledge on us. Even if he's not, I hope he keeps doing what he's doing.
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Old 02-28-2013, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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This thread could really use a JordanTaber scouting report on Alex Smith.
Alex Smith is a Chief
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:52 AM    (permalink
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I just tallied how many negative rushing plays Stevan Ridley had last year as a frame of reference to Sanders. Ridley is pretty much the kind of back that JT describes as being a good complement to a passing offense. With that in mind Ridley had 28 negative plays on 290 carries for an average of a negative play every ~9.7% of the time, whereas Sanders had a career average of a negative play every 11% of the time.
I did this screen grab from a youtube video of Barry during the 1996 season.

When you remove the runs for negative yardage but still include the runs for zero yards, Barry up to that point ran for a 6.35 ypc that season (1,631 yds on 257 carries). All runs with positive yardage had a 7.1 ypc.

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Old 03-19-2013, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Didn't bother to read the OP because the premise is so patently absurd. This is basically the football version of "why the Black Plague wasn't so bad".
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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I did this screen grab from a youtube video of Barry during the 1996 season.

When you remove the runs for negative yardage but still include the runs for zero yards, Barry up to that point ran for a 6.35 ypc that season (1,631 yds on 257 carries). All runs with positive yardage had a 7.1 ypc.


It's so hard to quantify what Sanders' stats mean in hindsight, more so without having another HOF RB to compare his negative or zero yds/carry against.

Is Barry within a statistical normal range for most RBs?? Or are his negative plays a real aberration for the position??

Just a hunch, but I look at those negative plays being the result of Barry ALWAYS trying to make something happen on every single carry and not just 'taking what was there'.

Maybe it was a little athletic arrogance on Sanders part or slightly overestimating his own abilities, but when you look at that 7.1 yd/carry on his positive plays, maybe Barry knew something about running the football we mere mortals don't.

Still the single most dangerous RB in the open field who's ever played the game.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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I did this screen grab from a youtube video of Barry during the 1996 season.

When you remove the runs for negative yardage but still include the runs for zero yards, Barry up to that point ran for a 6.35 ypc that season (1,631 yds on 257 carries). All runs with positive yardage had a 7.1 ypc.

That's 71 carries of 0 yards or less up to that point.

He only had 12 carries of 20 yards or more that year.

Which is the more likely result?

Factoring out carries for loss/no gain =/= factoring out carries for big plays.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Didn't bother to read the OP because the premise is so patently absurd. This is basically the football version of "why the Black Plague wasn't so bad".
The premise itself might be absurd, but you certainly add nothing redeeming it. You and all the other [BLEEP]-flingers.

Anyway, to answer FUNBUNCHER's ponderings, I tend to find Barry's negative gains sort of a mixed deal. Just going from that '94 video you not only found Barry occasionally making the wrong decision while improvising, but also at times being genuinely pancaked by the defense. You learned a number of key things; mainly that Barry wasn't a pile-driver, especially not in what qualifies as 'Goal Line-type' situations, but he could in fact get happy feet.

You actually see that tendency a lot even today. A player catching a screen pass or a returner, sacrificing precious downhill momentum trying to juke and swerve against defenders who are in front of him rather than charging decisively for a few extra decisive yards. Shoot, even regular running backs, and not just the scatback variety either, get caught up with happy feet when they should be cutting and going.

Happy Feet can be forgivable, especially if you don't relish contact(I should imagine most Runners don't). It's even more forgivable if you remind yourself that Barry and other players of his ilk are making these decisions of where to go at split-second speeds. You can see a negative or scant gain and think he did the wrong move, and you'd be right, but if you were down there you'd probably make the same decision- assuming the defense hadn't already crushed you two steps after you took the handoff.

On another note, I found a lot of those carries were in fact Barry 'taking what was there' and only occasionally deviating from the script. It might explain why those splits from '96 and JT show Barry having no or negative gain 71 times, excellent gains 12 times.... and 218 generally positive gains between the two extremes. In order for those remaining carries to average out to less than five yards per carry to start with, Barry would've had to average over forty-five yards per big run. To average less than 4, over 63.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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The problem with this premise is that in the game that was hand picked, Barry Sanders gained a first down on more than 25% of his runs and his "success rate" seemed to be more than 50%.

I'd like to see a game where Gerry Ellis looked better.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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Ray Lewis just dances around and talks about Jesus and isnt really that important to the Ravens' success, Barry Sanders has bad vision and dances too much and is the reason the Lions suck, Randy Moss is a more complete receiver than Jerry Rice...honestly what are you doing spending your time posting on a football forum?
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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Randy Moss is not a more complete receiver than Jerry Rice. Daunte Culpepper made him.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Barry had 194 yds in that game. The Lions won in OT.
I thought I was going to be the first to point it out, but Sanders had 40 ******* carries in the game for a measly 194 yards in a ******* win against the Cowboys. That's his argument against Sanders. In a game where he carried the Lions to victory. And a guy who made Herman Moore a much better player than his stats would suggest. But maybe it's just a cocincdende that Herman Moore's best seasons (94-97) coincided with Sanders running for over 1,500 yards in each of those years. Twice of which Sanders went over 1,800 yards (one 2,000 yard season). I'm sure we could not make any arguement that Sanders, the focal point of the Lions offense, had no effect on making the other players around him better than they actually were.

I can't apologize for bumping this God awful thread, but what an argument. Ignore all the good and focus solely on his negative runs. Is this becoming a common theme around these parts? Is that the only way to debate on these forums?

The only real viable complaint against Sanders is that he never won in the playoffs. We were never able to see what he could do in the postseason because the rest of his team was so bad. Unfortunately he played for one of the worsts franchises in Football. It is what it is.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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I can't apologize for bumping this God awful thread, but what an argument. Ignore all the good and focus solely on his negative runs. Is this becoming a common theme around these parts? Is that the only way to debate on these forums?

The only real viable complaint against Sanders is that he never won in the playoffs. We were never able to see what he could do in the postseason because the rest of his team was so bad. Unfortunately he played for one of the worsts franchises in Football. It is what it is.
Well said Banger.
This thread by Taber was one of the worst, or best TROLL jobs ever on here.
Coming from me, that's.....

Barry Sanders > Every other RB
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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I thought I was going to be the first to point it out, but Sanders had 40 ******* carries in the game for a measly 194 yards in a ******* win against the Cowboys. That's his argument against Sanders. In a game where he carried the Lions to victory. And a guy who made Herman Moore a much better player than his stats would suggest. But maybe it's just a cocincdende that Herman Moore's best seasons (94-97) coincided with Sanders running for over 1,500 yards in each of those years. Twice of which Sanders went over 1,800 yards (one 2,000 yard season). I'm sure we could not make any arguement that Sanders, the focal point of the Lions offense, had no effect on making the other players around him better than they actually were.

I can't apologize for bumping this God awful thread, but what an argument. Ignore all the good and focus solely on his negative runs. Is this becoming a common theme around these parts? Is that the only way to debate on these forums?

The only real viable complaint against Sanders is that he never won in the playoffs. We were never able to see what he could do in the postseason because the rest of his team was so bad. Unfortunately he played for one of the worsts franchises in Football. It is what it is.
And even that complaint is extremely flimsy at best. Iconic names like Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus never even reached the playoffs during their entire career. Walter Payton's first 9 seasons in the NFL resulted in 2 playoff appearances and 0 playoff wins for the Bears, even though Payton was in his prime during those years.

In 1977 Payton ran for over 1,850 yds in 14 games, swept all the awards, and yet the Bears got dumped 37-7 by a far superior Dallas team in the playoffs. Chicago didn't start winning until they built that incredible defense in the mid 80s because one legendary player (and a non QB in that) can only carry a team so far in a 45 man team sport. Payton was 30 when he experienced his first playoff victory in 1984, the same age as Barry when he retired.

The same thing more or less happened with Barry, except Singletary, Dent and the rest of the '85 Bears didn't show up to help him win a Super Bowl. He'd carry the Lions on his back to the playoffs only for them to lose to a superior team. Conceding 41 pts to the Redskins and 58 to the Eagles when the Lions QBs threw 6 INTs wasn't Barry's fault either. The -1 game vs Green Bay at Lambeau in 1994? Well, even the great Jim Brown had a playoff game of 8 yds on 7 carries. And if you ask the Packers they'll tell you they played the perfect game that day and Reggie White destroyed the interior of the Lions OL. One year previously, and against the same Packers team in the wild card game, Barry ran for 169 and the Lions still lost to a last minute Favre to Sharpe TD on a blown coverage.

As for Moore he was a fine player and a had a very nice career but I sometimes hear the lazy argument that Barry benefited from playing alongside Moore and Perriman when anybody with eyes and a brain could see it was the other way round. Perriman was a journeyman with one huge year in a huge season (1995) for NFL WRs. Moore was drafted in 1991 and barely saw the field during his rookie season with just 11 catches. By the end of that 1991 season Sanders had already finished in the top 2 rushing in each of his first 3 seasons, scored 47 TDs and averaged over 4.9 ypc while being named All Pro each season (as he did for all 10 seasons of his career). When Barry retired Moore's career fell off a cliff. Moore's best season post-Sanders was 40-434-3.

It's the same when I hear Lomas Brown being used as a rebuttal for Barry having a bad OL. What they forget/don't know/ignore is that Lomas:

1. Was a better pass blocker than run blocker.
2. Never sniffed the Pro Bowl until Sanders was drafted 4 years later.
3. Left the Lions in 1996 as a free agent to Arizona. Barry felt the effect of losing his most decorated lineman by leading the NFL in rushing in each of the following two seasons, including his 2,053yd and 6.1ypc in '97. The Lions left tackle that season was Ray Roberts.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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And even that complaint is extremely flimsy at best. Iconic names like Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus never even reached the playoffs during their entire career. Walter Payton's first 9 seasons in the NFL resulted in 2 playoff appearances and 0 playoff wins for the Bears, even though Payton was in his prime during those years.

In 1977 Payton ran for over 1,850 yds in 14 games, swept all the awards, and yet the Bears got dumped 37-7 by a far superior Dallas team in the playoffs. Chicago didn't start winning until they built that incredible defense in the mid 80s because one legendary player (and a non QB in that) can only carry a team so far in a 45 man team sport. Payton was 30 when he experienced his first playoff victory in 1984, the same age as Barry when he retired.

The same thing more or less happened with Barry, except Singletary, Dent and the rest of the '85 Bears didn't show up to help him win a Super Bowl. He'd carry the Lions on his back to the playoffs only for them to lose to a superior team. Conceding 41 pts to the Redskins and 58 to the Eagles when the Lions QBs threw 6 INTs wasn't Barry's fault either. The -1 game vs Green Bay at Lambeau in 1994? Well, even the great Jim Brown had a playoff game of 8 yds on 7 carries. And if you ask the Packers they'll tell you they played the perfect game that day and Reggie White destroyed the interior of the Lions OL. One year previously, and against the same Packers team in the wild card game, Barry ran for 169 and the Lions still lost to a last minute Favre to Sharpe TD on a blown coverage.

As for Moore he was a fine player and a had a very nice career but I sometimes hear the lazy argument that Barry benefited from playing alongside Moore and Perriman when anybody with eyes and a brain could see it was the other way round. Perriman was a journeyman with one huge year in a huge season (1995) for NFL WRs. Moore was drafted in 1991 and barely saw the field during his rookie season with just 11 catches. By the end of that 1991 season Sanders had already finished in the top 2 rushing in each of his first 3 seasons, scored 47 TDs and averaged over 4.9 ypc while being named All Pro each season (as he did for all 10 seasons of his career). When Barry retired Moore's career fell off a cliff. Moore's best season post-Sanders was 40-434-3.

It's the same when I hear Lomas Brown being used as a rebuttal for Barry having a bad OL. What they forget/don't know/ignore is that Lomas:

1. Was a better pass blocker than run blocker.
2. Never sniffed the Pro Bowl until Sanders was drafted 4 years later.
3. Left the Lions in 1996 as a free agent to Arizona. Barry felt the effect of losing his most decorated lineman by leading the NFL in rushing in each of the following two seasons, including his 2,053yd and 6.1ypc in '97. The Lions left tackle that season was Ray Roberts.
This is a great post. And I agree with almost everything you said. I believe Sanders is the best pure RB that I've ever seen. From who and what I've seen, he's the most talented and simply the best. Adrian Peterson may soon pass him one of these days.

I still view the lack of games played / success in the postseason as somewhat of a knock on a player; any given player. It can't be a direct knock because one player doesn't make a team, but Sanders had one good game in the postseason. It's not his fault that he was drafted by the Lions or stayed with the team for his entire career. I know the Lions only made the playoffs because of him, but he just lacks those memorable playoffs / Super Bowl moments, which can sometimes define a player (i.e. Troy Aikman, Lynn Swann, Terry Bradhsaw, Earnest Byner).

Like you mentioned: Walter Peyton. He finally won a Super Bowl and, in a blowout, he never scored a TD; he actually never scored during their entire 85 postseason run (or cracked 100 yards). And his lack of individual success does - I don't want to say it tarnishes his career - but it feels likes this iconic player simply has a missing part of his legacy that most great players have. And Sanders and Peyton are two iconic players; to make no mistake about it. They surpass greatness and go into a territory where truly only a select few players ever elevate to.

Timmy Smith has a more memorbable postseason moment than arguably the greatest RB of all-time? It's just odd. Granted that's Timmy Smith's only moment, but in a way, it's more memorable than any other game Peyton can offer up. We know he set the single game rushing record, but is the game itself memorable? Or any of his carries in that game? And I think Peyton kinda knew that it might effect his legacy to a degree, which is why he was so upset about it. If he torched the Patriots for 200+ yards and 3 TDs his legacy would be altered. It just would be. His greatness would be magnified.

There's something that magnifies a players success, or validates their greatness when they do it on the biggest stage (i.e. Steve Young). Not that Peyton needed to be validated, but his lack of a moment in the postseason hurts his legacy overall, especially when you start splitting hairs between greatest and most greatest.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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Really don't think this thread needed to be bumped. You guys are sticking up for... Barry Sanders.
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:29 AM    (permalink
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Um, Timmy Smith's SB performance was a mirage. He was running through truck sized holes in SB XXII that IMO any starting RB in the NFL would have rushed for at least 170+ yards in that game.

WHen the Hogs talk about that game and SMith's performance, they almost never compliment him. Inevitably they start talking about how dominant the Oline was as a unit against Denver.
Smith was out of the league of few years later at age 26.

Just wanted to point this out, that it's kind of disrespectful to bring up Timmy Smith in a convo about Barry Sanders and Walter Payton's lack of post season success.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:54 AM    (permalink
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Well said Banger.
This thread by Taber was one of the worst, or best TROLL jobs ever on here.
Coming from me, that's.....

Barry Sanders > Every other RB
Taber is a troll savant. He reached elite troll status before puberty and has spent over a decade perfecting his craft.

This thread is child's play for him.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Taber is a troll savant. He reached elite troll status before puberty and has spent over a decade perfecting his craft.

This thread is child's play for him.
So you´re saying that we should expect even greater levels of epicness from him in the future...?
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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So you´re saying that we should expect even greater levels of epicness from him in the future...?
Yes.

So far he has been very generic in his topics. He's just gathering intel at this point. Once he has identified potential targets, things will get more... specific.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Sweet.

Yeah, I said it. Guy makes me think.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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I thought I was going to be the first to point it out, but Sanders had 40 ******* carries in the game for a measly 194 yards in a ******* win against the Cowboys. That's his argument against Sanders. In a game where he carried the Lions to victory. And a guy who made Herman Moore a much better player than his stats would suggest. But maybe it's just a cocincdende that Herman Moore's best seasons (94-97) coincided with Sanders running for over 1,500 yards in each of those years. Twice of which Sanders went over 1,800 yards (one 2,000 yard season). I'm sure we could not make any arguement that Sanders, the focal point of the Lions offense, had no effect on making the other players around him better than they actually were.

I can't apologize for bumping this God awful thread, but what an argument. Ignore all the good and focus solely on his negative runs. Is this becoming a common theme around these parts? Is that the only way to debate on these forums?

The only real viable complaint against Sanders is that he never won in the playoffs. We were never able to see what he could do in the postseason because the rest of his team was so bad. Unfortunately he played for one of the worsts franchises in Football. It is what it is.
I picked that game because it was one of the first that popped up on Youtube and I figured it's a good illustration of how he could have a game people rave about where he still did plenty wrong.

If I posted his 1991 game in the season opener against the Packers where he ran 18 times for 42 yards, that would be biased and pointless. Someone would go, "but what about all the big games he had?"
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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Ray Lewis just dances around and talks about Jesus and isnt really that important to the Ravens' success, Barry Sanders has bad vision and dances too much and is the reason the Lions suck, Randy Moss is a more complete receiver than Jerry Rice...honestly what are you doing spending your time posting on a football forum?
When did I say any of that? Nice straw man, dude.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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I picked that game because it was one of the first that popped up on Youtube and I figured it's a good illustration of how he could have a game people rave about where he still did plenty wrong.

If I posted his 1991 game in the season opener against the Packers where he ran 18 times for 42 yards, that would be biased and pointless. Someone would go, "but what about all the big games he had?"
And every great running back has loads of games like that. Walter Payton in week 1 of 1980 vs Green Bay: 31 carries for 65 yds in a 12-6 defeat.

Nobody is perfect. What was that famous quote from Michael Jordan where he mentions the total of all his missed free throws and game winning shots? Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament and misses lots of short putts? Why focus only on the tiny negatives and totally ignore the overwhelming positives?

What exactly did you expect from Barry?
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