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Old 03-20-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
Cigaro
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
On second thought, that even looks like he leads with the crown in slow motion. His head goes straight down and hes not even looking up. Thats definitely leading with the helmet. Classic wrong Forenci
Uh, that's not how the penalty works. It doesn't matter if you lead with the crown, it matters if you make contact with the crown in a ramming manner. Considering it was a shoulder blow, Forenci would be correct.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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Oh so the NFL is saying its fine to put your head down leading with the crown so long as the defensive player doesnt happen to hit the helmet? Oh my bad, this rule makes much more sense to me now.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I don't see this being called very often. People love to overreact and say "classic wrong Forenci" when their own argument is based on subjective analysis. So dumb.

This isn't going to be called like pass interference. This isn't going to be called like holding. This isn't going to be called like roughing the passer.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Forenci View Post
I mean, it's not perfect, but nothing ever is. Holding calls go uncalled and incorrectly called, PI, defenseless receiver, etc.

I think this is a good rule. Defense get punished for doing this, why shouldn't offensive players?

I know it's not popular, and Jvig is probably right when he says it's for the NFL to protect its ass, but anything that might make the sport safer is fine by me. I understand, inherently, it's an unsafe sport. I do. But does that mean we shouldn't do as much as we can make it safe without drastically altering the game (i.e. making it flag football)?

Can't speak for everyone, but I've played football, and I also plan to have kids someday. I know football comes with risks and we assume those risks when we (or the pros) play. But I still would want everything done to protect my kid if he decided to play football.
I played football too.
You accept the risks. I want the game safer but I dont want it altered entirely either.
Eliminate low blocks from behind. That's fine.

Missing calls is one thing but this is such a blurred line already and the definition is going to be up for interpretation so much.

That is what makes this a bad rule. There is no way to say that refs will even remotely get this right.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I don't see this being called very often. People love to overreact and say "classic wrong Forenci" when their own argument is based on subjective analysis. So dumb.

This isn't going to be called like pass interference. This isn't going to be called like holding. This isn't going to be called like roughing the passer.
Calls out people basing arguments on subjective analysis, proceeds to make subjective analysis.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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Holy ****. READ THE ******* RULE. WHEN YOU LOWER THE CROWN OF YOUR HELMET.

Not when you lower your pads, not when you even lower your head a bit. When you use the CROWN of your helmet. THE CROWN. Do you guys even know what the crown is?

Christ.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Calls out people basing arguments on subjective analysis, proceeds to make subjective analysis.
Yeah, except, like Cigaro said, they already said (based on viewing games) that it wouldn't be called much.

Which is far more objective than saying, "DUR REFS ARE LAME AND CAN'T SEE IN REAL TIME SPEED DESPITE BEING TRAINED TO DO SO AND DOING SO EVERY GAME ANYWAY"

****! How the hell will they be able to see if a WR has two feet in? GUYS THIS IS REAL TIME!
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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We will review this later obviously, but I see how often this **** is over-called on defenders, and I believe it absolutely will be over-called in this situation.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Forenci View Post
Yeah, except, like Cigaro said, they already said (based on viewing games) that it wouldn't be called much.

Which is far more objective than saying, "DUR REFS ARE LAME AND CAN'T SEE IN REAL TIME SPEED DESPITE BEING TRAINED TO DO SO AND DOING SO EVERY GAME ANYWAY"

****! How the hell will they be able to see if a WR has two feet in? GUYS THIS IS REAL TIME!
Compare it to helmet-to-helmet hits on defenders which has basically transformed into a penalty for hitting someone too hard.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Holy ****. READ THE ******* RULE. WHEN YOU LOWER THE CROWN OF YOUR HELMET.

Not when you lower your pads, not when you even lower your head a bit. When you use the CROWN of your helmet. THE CROWN. Do you guys even know what the crown is?

Christ.
I was thinking the same thing reading through all the recent responses. Lots of bitching by people who cannot read.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Compare it to helmet-to-helmet hits on defenders which has basically transformed into a penalty for hitting someone too hard.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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Compare it to helmet-to-helmet hits on defenders which has basically transformed into a penalty for hitting someone too hard.
That is helmet to helmet. Which has to do with ANY part of the helmet hitting another players helmet.

This is the CROWN of the helmet being used against a defender. Completely different.

And I'm all for fairness. If it's over called on defense, why shouldn't it be called (at all) on offense? Maybe it's because I played defense and love defense, but why should an offensive player be allowed to do something similar, but not nearly the same as the helmet-to-helmet rule? If it were up to me I'd put in an offensive face mask penalty too. Most stiff arms include grabbing and pulling on the face mask but it doesn't get called. Offensive PI isn't called nearly enough as Defensive PI. So on and so forth.

I'm for player safety and for inhibiting the offense as much as the defense is.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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Well it's a little different for a defender hitting a defenseless receiver in the head coming over the middle than a DB taking a helmet from a RB coming right at him. You keep emphasizing the crown, and what we are saying is that is the definition as of now, but the NFL has a very recent history of taking these rules to the absolute extreme. I see no reason why the same won't happen for this rule.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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I think everyone is overreacting. That Bradshaw play is not illegal. He uses his shoulder pad to deliver the blow. Keep in mind this is the CROWN OF THE HELMET, not just lowering your head to protect yourself or truck somebody..
Your completely missing the point. Of course that play isn't illegal, but that doesn't mean it won't be called. It's easy to watch it at that speed and say it isn't or won't be called because of the angle and speed you have but if the ref is in the middle of the field that will be called 10/10 times I'd be willing to bet. Or do you mean to tell me everytime they throw a flag at the defense for launching, or leading with the helmet, that 100% of the time that is actually what happened?
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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Or roughing the passer. The NFL keeps placing these rules in to "emphasize player safety" but they are always over-called. It's absurd. This is the same kind of rule.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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For the record I said I guess we'll see how its called, of course its subjective analysis that I think there will be plenty of mis calls tho. Thats sort of the definition of an opinion.

And yeah forenci, great logic that since refs are trained to call penalties in game speed they will hence forth make the right call. Real argument sealer right there.
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Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.
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I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Holy ****. READ THE ******* RULE. WHEN YOU LOWER THE CROWN OF YOUR HELMET.

Not when you lower your pads, not when you even lower your head a bit. When you use the CROWN of your helmet. THE CROWN. Do you guys even know what the crown is?

Christ.
You may not know this but it's impossible to lower your shoulders without lowering your head somewhat.
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The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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Over/Under 3 years when the NFL bans stiff arms
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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For the record I said I guess we'll see how its called, of course its subjective analysis that I think there will be plenty of mis calls tho. Thats sort of the definition of an opinion.

And yeah forenci, great logic that since refs are trained to call penalties in game speed they will hence forth make the right call. Real argument sealer right there.
Yeah, it's a pretty good argument when the vast majority of calls the referees make are correct at game speed.

It's the sensationalism of a few terrible, widely publicized calls, which hurt referees. They are getting most of the calls right at game speed so why would I be incredibly concerned of a rule that is far more restrictive and difficult to call than defensive helmet-to-helmet?
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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Bengals only team against the RB rule.
Makes sense given that they just spent a top 5 pick on a physical runningback.
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Are we really worried about the officials "getting it wrong". Holding happens on every single play and it's a matter of the referees mood as to whether it will be called.

Some crews will call 10 holding penalties in a game. Other crews like the ones they normally target for the Super Bowl won't have a single one. Regardless of whether or not they call it holding in terms of the rulebook happens on every single play.

Lets not get started on the atrocity called illegal contact. That could be called in 99% of all pass plays the way it is written.
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Makes sense given that they just spent a top 5 pick on a physical runningback.
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Makes sense given that they just spent a top 5 pick on a physical runningback.
Don't you mean the Browns?
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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Compare it to helmet-to-helmet hits on defenders which has basically transformed into a penalty for hitting someone too hard.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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I don't mind the idea of this rule, using the crown is very dangerous for both players.

That said... there absolutely needs to be an order to the refs to only call a flag on it if they are 100% certain of an infringement.

The problem with the defenseless receiver rule is that the refs were told to throw a flag if they thought it was possible there was helmet to helmet, which has lead to way more flags that shouldn't have happened than flags that should have.

If you set the rule as beyond any doubt and the refs follow that, it will be fine, we will see maybe 1 or 2 a week. If they do what they did with the receiver rule, we will see 1 or 2 a game and it will become a joke like the defenseless receiver rule where fans just hate it because most of the flags are wrong.

The Earl Campbell one would be very borderline, would come down to whether they called it inside/outside the tackle box, if you said outside then it would be textbook, if you said it was inside then it would be perfectly legal still.

Bradshaw one shouldn't be one regardless, imo. Ridley one certainly shouldn't have.
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