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Old 03-21-2013, 04:11 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
He doesn't give a ****. He's the owner. There's no magnitude for him. He is the magnitude. He can't get fired.

And I don't think it's 100% personal. I think Idzik is wary of an extension too for the reasons I stated.

It really is Mr. T's fault.
Oh I understand that Woody can do whatever the hell he wants, but it doesn't make it any more intelligent of a business decision or make him any better of an owner. To me, personal stuff has to be kept out of business decisions. If there's other reasons, fair. I still think they can suck next year, drop their big contracts with average players after 2014, and build around a rookie QB, Revis, their young DL, and Brick/Mangold. The QB won't need a new contract till the end of the Revis deal anyway.

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I doubt it. I don't think Woody is pulling the strings as much as some people here are assuming. What's more likely the case is that Tampa hasn't actually given that offer yet. We'll see what happens this week. I'm sure a lot of headway was made behind the scenes at the owner's meeting.
If it's a real offer (and I'm skeptical), Idzik probably isn't in a rush to take it. The 2014 draft is literally 13 months away, and they've got like 7 months left to trade Revis. Unless he thinks the offer is going to go away, no harm in sitting around for a little while and seeing if something better comes along.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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That's for them to deal with. I know that you can easily maneuver if you're willing to. For starters, they'll have 6mil off next year with Boldin. They declined to pay Goldson. They'll have to make tough decisions. They may lose Crabtree if they choose to pay Revis.

I'm no cap guru but anything is possible. The Seahawks are at 132 mil right now and the cap is 123 for 2013. And they still have to sign draft picks...

Or they could trade for Revis and just do what the Jets don't want to. Let him play out his contract and see where the chips fall after the season.
They'd probably have to lose Crabtree, Iupati, and Anthony Davis. Just speculating but none the less, when you have drafted well you will have to keep some in house talent and I doubt they intend on letting Crabtree and Iupati walk.




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Originally Posted by derza222 View Post
Oh I understand that Woody can do whatever the hell he wants, but it doesn't make it any more intelligent of a business decision or make him any better of an owner. To me, personal stuff has to be kept out of business decisions. If there's other reasons, fair. I still think they can suck next year, drop their big contracts with average players after 2014, and build around a rookie QB, Revis, their young DL, and Brick/Mangold. The QB won't need a new contract till the end of the Revis deal anyway.

.
Because as soon as Revis sees 2 more defensive players get paid more then him, he'll be holding out again wanting 17 million per season. It's just getting old, if I'm the Jets I want nothing to do with that anymore. Revis certainly hasn't made anything easy on them by any stretch of the imagination, and the consistent hold out talk is just too much. They should take that 1st and 2nd in a draft where they can obviously use the picks as ammo to get almost any QB they want and call it a day.


It's time to rebuild, you need picks to do that. You can't keep being a middle of the road team with the highest paid defensive player every year with no extra picks to get the QB you may want.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Why would TB trade a 1 and 2 for Revis? They're not a team on the cusp of a SB. Heck they could trade w/ Cleveland and get Millner and save their picks next year. So far as I know there aren't any other teams even talking to the Jets for Revis. That would be a very bad trade for Tampa.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
They'd probably have to lose Crabtree, Iupati, and Anthony Davis. Just speculating but none the less, when you have drafted well you will have to keep some in house talent and I doubt they intend on letting Crabtree and Iupati walk.
All that is is speculation. Unless you can provide the numbers, you don't know. The cap isn't as rigid as some make it out to be. This is a team that will add about 10-13 players on rookie deals from this draft. If a majority of those guys stick, that's potentially a very cap-friendly situation. They declined to pay Goldson, Boldin will be off the books, etc.

There's also a chance they'll rent him for a year.

Listen I hope you're all right. But I think it's pretty obvious they at least entertained the thought. And he's still out there.


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Because as soon as Revis sees 2 more defensive players get paid more then him, he'll be holding out again wanting 17 million per season. It's just getting old, if I'm the Jets I want nothing to do with that anymore. Revis certainly hasn't made anything easy on them by any stretch of the imagination, and the consistent hold out talk is just too much. They should take that 1st and 2nd in a draft where they can obviously use the picks as ammo to get almost any QB they want and call it a day.


It's time to rebuild, you need picks to do that. You can't keep being a middle of the road team with the highest paid defensive player every year with no extra picks to get the QB you may want.
I don't disagree with the second part. They should trade him.

But Revis isn't entirely the problem. The problem was that Tannenbaum/Rex gave Revis under-the-table promises that they'd re-do his contract at certain points. They probably told him that "we'll pay you in 2013 - we just need that space now for xyz to win now. we promise."

That's why Revis is unhappy.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Because as soon as Revis sees 2 more defensive players get paid more then him, he'll be holding out again wanting 17 million per season. It's just getting old, if I'm the Jets I want nothing to do with that anymore. Revis certainly hasn't made anything easy on them by any stretch of the imagination, and the consistent hold out talk is just too much. They should take that 1st and 2nd in a draft where they can obviously use the picks as ammo to get almost any QB they want and call it a day.

It's time to rebuild, you need picks to do that. You can't keep being a middle of the road team with the highest paid defensive player every year with no extra picks to get the QB you may want.
To be fair, that's assuming the Jets won't be in a position to get the QB they want regardless. It wouldn't be as strange to me if

a) Revis ends up signing for more in the $15 million range than the $12-$13 million range those comments were based on or
b) the Jets weren't willing to pay Cromartie, a corner who isn't nearly as good as Revis, nearly $11 million a year.

They'll end up having a cap hit of around $12-$13 million for Revis this year if they trade him, and they pushed some of Cromartie's guarantees to next year to save cap space this year, basically ensuring he'll be on the roster at around $10-$11 million. If they hadn't done that they could have cut/traded him and saved almost all of that money.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
All that is is speculation. Unless you can provide the numbers, you don't know. The cap isn't as rigid as some make it out to be. This is a team that will add about 10-13 players on rookie deals from this draft. If a majority of those guys stick, that's potentially a very cap-friendly situation. They declined to pay Goldson, Boldin will be off the books, etc.

There's also a chance they'll rent him for a year.

Listen I hope you're all right. But I think it's pretty obvious they at least entertained the thought. And he's still out there.


Ya think? I started my post out by saying "just speculating". I also never said they didn't entertain the idea anywhere, I said that there will be ramifications if they do sign him to be the highest paid defensive player in the league. I don't have cap numbers in front of me but we are both smart enough to know that you can't sign Revis, and also re-sign Crabtree, Iupati, & Davis. It's more then likely that at least 2 of them will have to walk. That isn't even factoring in re-signing Kaepernick who obviously isn't going anywhere, how much money do you honestly think they have?




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I don't disagree with the second part. They should trade him.

But Revis isn't entirely the problem. The problem was that Tannenbaum/Rex gave Revis under-the-table promises that they'd re-do his contract at certain points. They probably told him that "we'll pay you in 2013 - we just need that space now for xyz to win now. we promise."

That's why Revis is unhappy.
Weren't you just talking about speculating? I don't know what they promised him, all I know is that he has long been paid, and it's never enough. Then he holds out, gets paid, gets injured a few times, comes back to play well, has a big injury and wants paid again. He's been way too much of a headache for a team that doesn't need any more.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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To be fair, that's assuming the Jets won't be in a position to get the QB they want regardless. It wouldn't be as strange to me if

a) Revis ends up signing for more in the $15 million range than the $12-$13 million range those comments were based on or
b) the Jets weren't willing to pay Cromartie, a corner who isn't nearly as good as Revis, nearly $11 million a year.

They'll end up having a cap hit of around $12-$13 million for Revis this year if they trade him, and they pushed some of Cromartie's guarantees to next year to save cap space this year, basically ensuring he'll be on the roster at around $10-$11 million. If they hadn't done that they could have cut/traded him and saved almost all of that money.

Well nobody knows where they will pick at, they could end up picking 6th and the 2(just guessing) franchise QB's go 1-2. You don't think an additional 1st and 2nd gets you in the conversation to make a trade up happen that much easier? If just taking any QB and trading up for whoever it was made no difference, why not just make a move up for Geno if the quality of the guy doesn't matter?
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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It's been well known in NY that the Jets made those promises to him. I was just guessing the gist of those promises is all.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Why would TB trade a 1 and 2 for Revis? They're not a team on the cusp of a SB. Heck they could trade w/ Cleveland and get Millner and save their picks next year. So far as I know there aren't any other teams even talking to the Jets for Revis. That would be a very bad trade for Tampa.
I agree. Just sign Grimes or Winfeld for now and you have the draft to get someone. The rumored Revis trade plus extension would not be something a winning franchise does.

And Revis is ******** to rely on under the table promises.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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Sure can. The Buccaneers traded 2 first round selections to the Jets for Keyshawn Johnson in 2000, then traded 2 first round and 2 second round selections to the Oakland Raiders for Jon Gruden in 2002.

The result? A Lombardi Trophy.
It's not like the 2002 Bucs didn't have one of the best defenses of all time and only a slightly above average offense, right?

The 2002 Bucs had a historically great defense and got hot at the right time and played the right teams in the playoffs. The 1999 Bucs (again with a great defense) got to the NFCCG and were a referee's call away from advancing to the Super Bowl as well, all without Keyshawn Johnson and Jon Gruden.

In fact, I'd go so far as to saying that the 2002 Bucs won *in spite* of Keyshawn Johnson and Jon Gruden.

It's pretty obvious after the past 10 years that Gruden is a mediocre coach at best.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Well, atleast we'll have a new GM. That Eric Stokes guy we got from Seattle to be pro scouting director will do a much better job when Dominik is canned next year.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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The 2002 Bucs had a historically great defense and got hot at the right time and played the right teams in the playoffs. The 1999 Bucs (again with a great defense) got to the NFCCG and were a referee's call away from advancing to the Super Bowl as well, all without Keyshawn Johnson and Jon Gruden.

It's good to know that thiswas the only SB team that this was the case for.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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It's pretty obvious after the past 10 years that Gruden is a mediocre coach at best.
I think Gruden should get a good amount of credit for the turnaround he put forth in Oakland at least. His tenure in Tampa Bay did result in a trophy, even though he didn't build that team. He did get them over the hump, something that Tony Dungy didn't do there with the time he had.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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I don't disagree with the second part. They should trade him.

But Revis isn't entirely the problem. The problem was that Tannenbaum/Rex gave Revis under-the-table promises that they'd re-do his contract at certain points. They probably told him that "we'll pay you in 2013 - we just need that space now for xyz to win now. we promise."

That's why Revis is unhappy.
I really think Revis is a player teams can rent for a year at the most. Nobody in today's flat cap era, can afford to pay him QB money. He's living in the past if he thinks any team will be able to afford him longer than 1 season.
If I was a betting man, I'd wager that the Jets cannot get any takers on Revis in trades.

San Fran will have its own cap problems sooner rather than later when Kaepernick's rookie contract is up, he'll be demanding huge $$$'S as well.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:29 AM    (permalink
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Well nobody knows where they will pick at, they could end up picking 6th and the 2(just guessing) franchise QB's go 1-2. You don't think an additional 1st and 2nd gets you in the conversation to make a trade up happen that much easier? If just taking any QB and trading up for whoever it was made no difference, why not just make a move up for Geno if the quality of the guy doesn't matter?
The extra picks would obviously help. To me, trading away your best player to see him get paid $2.5 million more than another player at the same position on your roster who a) isn't nearly as good and b) will be basically useless when he loses a step hurts. My commentary was more about the cap room than the picks.

Obviously having future picks is nice, although trading your best player to after a 2014 QB when you don't know if there will be a franchise QB in the 2014 draft or, to your point, where you'll be picking doesn't seem like the best plan either.

But like I said, my question is really about the logic of thinking that it's ridiculous to pay Revis $12-$13 million a year, but perfectly logical to pay a worse player in Cromartie at the same position around $10-11 million a year. Looks like Cro's 2014 cap number is like $15 million, too.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:01 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
San Fran will have its own cap problems sooner rather than later when Kaepernick's rookie contract is up, he'll be demanding huge $$$'S as well.
But just because someone like Kaepernick is going to command a huge deal doesn't mean the 49ers will have "cap problems". If the 49ers were over the cap and struggling to get under it every season then perhaps you could make a case, but this hasn't happened since the early 2000's.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:08 AM    (permalink
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When they last had players worth paying to keep around?
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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When they last had players worth paying to keep around?
None of the current 49ers players are worth keeping around? None of them have deserved the recent deals they've gotten in the last five or so years? Patrick Willis, Vernon Davis, Ahmad Brooks, Navorro Bowman? Okay...

Anyways, I'd say since the 49ers last had a terrible GM that put us in a financial burden, Terry Donahue. During those days the 49ers had a lot of dead money and were paying guys that weren't even on the team anymore like Roy Barker. There is a reason why we let someone like Goldson walk this offseason. So we wouldn't be put in that position again.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Why would TB trade a 1 and 2 for Revis? They're not a team on the cusp of a SB. Heck they could trade w/ Cleveland and get Millner and save their picks next year. So far as I know there aren't any other teams even talking to the Jets for Revis. That would be a very bad trade for Tampa.
Buc's had a top ten offense, 1st defensively against the run, 32nd against the pass last year. We lost 4 games when leading in the 4th qtr, 6 games by a TD or less. We are a good secondary away from being a playoff team, and once you get in anything is possible. Just look at the last two SB winners, both wild card teams one posting a 9 win regular season and the other a 10 win season.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Buc's had a top ten offense, 1st defensively against the run, 32nd against the pass last year. We lost 4 games when leading in the 4th qtr, 6 games by a TD or less. We are a good secondary away from being a playoff team, and once you get in anything is possible. Just look at the last two SB winners, both wild card teams one posting a 9 win regular season and the other a 10 win season.
The problem with the "one player away" mentality is that it assumes that the NFL is static.

"Our team was awesome last year except for our secondary. Once we get some CBs, 1+1=2 and we will be awesome all around!"

That logic is flawed because rosters change from year to year - free agency, age, injury... etc. There's a good chance that yesterday's strengths might be today's weaknesses. The Bucs were #1 against the run last year? Maybe this year they will drop to #20 against the run due to free agency departures of one of their DTs, and/or a Gerald McCoy injury or something. You just don't know.

So say a Revis signing brings their secondary to #6 in the league, but then their run defense is a mediocre #20. Their defense is once again just slightly above average, even if it's better against the pass this year.

The "one player away" logic is always flawed in this respect. A team should be simply trying to add talent to its roster at the best value to the team. Trading away multiple high draft picks for a single player to fill a "need" is therefore a bad idea, because it's a low value acquisition, no matter how well that one player plays. Instead of Revis, with those draft picks they could have picked up depth at OG, say, or DT, and improved other areas of their team with a higher aggregate net effect at a better value (younger players, less money, etc). Maybe these acquisitions don't immediately make the secondary better this year, but in the next 2-3 years they improve the overall quality of the team by fortifying the OL and DL.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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The problem with the "one player away" mentality is that it assumes that the NFL is static.

"Our team was awesome last year except for our secondary. Once we get some CBs, 1+1=2 and we will be awesome all around!"

That logic is flawed because rosters change from year to year - free agency, age, injury... etc. There's a good chance that yesterday's strengths might be today's weaknesses. The Bucs were #1 against the run last year? Maybe this year they will drop to #20 against the run due to free agency departures of one of their DTs, and/or a Gerald McCoy injury or something. You just don't know.

So say a Revis signing brings their secondary to #6 in the league, but then their run defense is a mediocre #20. Their defense is once again just slightly above average, even if it's better against the pass this year.

The "one player away" logic is always flawed in this respect. A team should be simply trying to add talent to its roster at the best value to the team. Trading away multiple high draft picks for a single player to fill a "need" is therefore a bad idea, because it's a low value acquisition, no matter how well that one player plays. Instead of Revis, with those draft picks they could have picked up depth at OG, say, or DT, and improved other areas of their team with a higher aggregate net effect at a better value (younger players, less money, etc). Maybe these acquisitions don't immediately make the secondary better this year, but in the next 2-3 years they improve the overall quality of the team by fortifying the OL and DL.
Very good points. I was trying to point out that the past two SB winners were not on the cusp of a SB going into the playoffs, they squeaked in. And that the Buc's have a lot of positives going into next year. Of course injuries and what not can change a teams outlook really quickly. Buc's know it very well losing both starting OG's, our best DE and both starting CB's for a big chunk of the season last year.

I don't think the Buc's are looking at it as they are one player away or doing this solely out of need. If that was the case they wouldn't have signed Goldson with Ahmad Black and possibly Barber coming back with the needs elsewhere. They are trying to get the best player at his position. There are some risk factors but it's a small price to pay if Revis is the same player. We all know the draft has plenty of risk also.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Very good points. I was trying to point out that the past two SB winners were not on the cusp of a SB going into the playoffs, they squeaked in. And that the Buc's have a lot of positives going into next year. Of course injuries and what not can change a teams outlook really quickly. Buc's know it very well losing both starting OG's, our best DE and both starting CB's for a big chunk of the season last year.

I don't think the Buc's are looking at it as they are one player away or doing this solely out of need. If that was the case they wouldn't have signed Goldson with Ahmad Black and possibly Barber coming back with the needs elsewhere. They are trying to get the best player at his position. There are some risk factors but it's a small price to pay if Revis is the same player. We all know the draft has plenty of risk also.

Honestly, I wouldnt hate a possible move if it's say a 1st this year and 2nd next year or vise-versa. I just think we shouldnt give up too much for him. He's going to cost us a pretty penny to sign long term.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't trade for Revis under any circumstances.

a.) He's not young and the drop-off for elite corners once they hit around 28-29 happens very quickly

b.) He is constantly unhappy with his contract and exudes a "diva" attitude. This guy will cause locker room problems for his entire career

c.) To get him signed (and you do want to sign him if you trade for him) you are going to need to pay him like a QB, which is patently insane in this salary cap era. I wouldnt' want to pay more than $10 mill a year to ANY position outside of QB

d.) He is coming off a serious injury. Say what you want about "Adrian Peterson" and the like, ACL tears are still serious and can rob players of explosion. Peterson might just be the outlier here and to depend on Revis replicating a miraculous comeback like that is extremely naive and optimistic.

e.) The CB position itself just isn't all that valuable. The secondary is as much a product of the pass rush as anything else. I'd rather improve my pass rush than put all of my eggs in the "elite secondary" department.

f.) You have to give up high draft picks for him. I don't want to even give up a 2nd round pick for a player with all of these question marks, let alone a 2nd round pick AND more, or a 1st round pick. That's crazy bad.


Any team that trades for Revis will be making a colossal mistake that will hamper their team in the long run. Trading for Revis will be one of the worst things a team can do, regardless of how "close to winning" they feel that they are. There is literally no team in the NFL that will be made better in the next 3 years by this type of move.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...nt-a-lot-more/

Well I don't know.

If I'm the Jets (assuming the obvious that my stupid owner simply WILL NOT rethink his stubbornness and extend Revis under any circumstances), I probably take it.

I actually like the 2014 first-and-third rumor much better but what have you done for me lately I guess...

But for them I definitely want a 2014 pick. But they can also shop 9 and 13 in an effort to trade down into the 2nd and get a 2014 first perhaps.

So ultimately I do it.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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There's really no reason for the Jets to do it now, if the offer is true. That offer will still be on the table on April 25th. The Jets should wait and get the best offer they can. Also, there's a rumor that the Falcons might be interested in Revis as well. No reason for the Jets to pull the trigger early.
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