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Old 03-21-2013, 10:35 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Hm. You are all making me want to re-evaluate. Jeremiah also had an interesting tweet. The best sack-getter in the SEC doesn't mean big-time NFL player in the past...

What was his 10 compared to the other top pass rushers though?

And Suggs ran a 4.8 I think.

Damn, a 4.9 is slowwww though. Wow.
Wouldn't bother me as much if he wasn't 245. I won't pretend that I remember watching Suggs in college, but he plays with a lot more power than I can ever imagine Jones playing with. I'm sure it can be overcome, but doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about taking him if I'm a team at the top of the draft.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Good point. There was a rumor he wasn't 100% and may have tweaked something on his first run.

It's going to be interesting. He could slide.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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Ignore film? Did you get the point about Cory Moore? Jones had high college PRODUCTION no different than a QB that lights it up in a spread system. He is allowed to rush the passer virtually every down. Doesn't make him a great athlete. He looked like pure garbage in the three cone, not a hint of explosion.
Moore's speed and quickness were fine, it's the fact he was 5'10-5'11, 220# and couldn't play rush 'backer in the NFL and didn't have the coverage awareness or instincts to play safety in the pros is the reason he bombed.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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There's a relatively high correlation between 40 times and the success of OLB in the NFL. But after watching Jarvis Jones last year playing for the Dawgs, there's NO WAY I thought he would run a hand timed 4.9.

JJ made plays last season rushing the QB and dropping into coverage. So many of his TFL and sacks were because he simply out-quicked OTs and OGs. Jones ran down RBs, TEs and WRs. He was the best defensive playmaker in the SEC last season.

The eye test says Jarvis Jones barring injury is a top 15 prospect. But his test measurables are all wrong.

Once you get into the 20th pick range and later in the first round, I think Jones' film surpasses his awful test numbers.

IMO on film Jarvis Jones looks like at least a 4.7 guy. Running a 4.9 for a player who had the range that Jones did on the field doesn't make sense.

He's def a scary prospect to grade.
You'd hate to miss him because you couldn't get past his test numbers.
On the other hand it would suck to draft this guy and he isn't close to the player he was in college.

If JJ didn't do what he did in the SEC, I'd have a hard time still seeing him as a 1st round prospect.

Didn't Terrell Suggs run a slow 40 predraft, like 4.8 range??
Suggs is a different player. He was an edge rusher only in college and his pass rush moves and counter moves were completely refined. He also weighed much more.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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Moore's speed and quickness were fine, it's the fact he was 5'10-5'11, 220# and couldn't play rush 'backer in the NFL and didn't have the coverage awareness or instincts to play safety in the pros is the reason he bombed.
But the point is his film probably looked great. The guy I was responding to was saying people who are criticizing Jones are "ignoring film." Film isn't everything, especially when you don't know what to look for.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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I think most scouts felt Suggs was a complete package coming out of Arizona St. so the slower time really didn't bother people. They had a good idea that he could contribute immediately between his size and abilities he showed on tape.

I think Jarvis Jones is an elite prospect and not moving away from that. Whoever ends up with him is getting the best defensive player in this draft IMO.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:12 PM    (permalink
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I think most scouts felt Suggs was a complete package coming out of Arizona St. so the slower time really didn't bother people. They had a good idea that he could contribute immediately between his size and abilities he showed on tape.

I think Jarvis Jones is an elite prospect and not moving away from that. Whoever ends up with him is getting the best defensive player in this draft IMO.
Not even close to the best defensive PRO.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:46 AM    (permalink
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There's a relatively high correlation between 40 times and the success of OLB in the NFL. But after watching Jarvis Jones last year playing for the Dawgs, there's NO WAY I thought he would run a hand timed 4.9.

JJ made plays last season rushing the QB and dropping into coverage. So many of his TFL and sacks were because he simply out-quicked OTs and OGs. Jones ran down RBs, TEs and WRs. He was the best defensive playmaker in the SEC last season.

The eye test says Jarvis Jones barring injury is a top 15 prospect. But his test measurables are all wrong.

Once you get into the 20th pick range and later in the first round, I think Jones' film surpasses his awful test numbers.

IMO on film Jarvis Jones looks like at least a 4.7 guy. Running a 4.9 for a player who had the range that Jones did on the field doesn't make sense.

He's def a scary prospect to grade.
You'd hate to miss him because you couldn't get past his test numbers.
On the other hand it would suck to draft this guy and he isn't close to the player he was in college.

If JJ didn't do what he did in the SEC, I'd have a hard time still seeing him as a 1st round prospect.

Didn't Terrell Suggs run a slow 40 predraft, like 4.8 range??
Clowney would like a word with you.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
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Clowney would like a word with you.
There are tons of SEC defenders that are better than him. He had nice sacks totals in a defense that features beasts all across the board save for CB. Best in the SEC?? He is NOT even better than his teamate in Ogletree and you can bring this thread up whenever you like.

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Old 03-22-2013, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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If jones does fall to the late first someone is getting a steal. This kid is a beast and easily the best natural 3-4 pass rusher in the draft.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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He reminds me of Corey Moore years ago at VT. A beast in college, but not built for the pros
Corey Moore was short and small, but ran blistering fast. There's quite a difference. I think in today's NFL that Corey Moore might've gone higher than where he went originally.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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Ignore film? Did you get the point about Cory Moore? Jones had high college PRODUCTION no different than a QB that lights it up in a spread system. He is allowed to rush the passer virtually every down. Doesn't make him a great athlete. He looked like pure garbage in the three cone, not a hint of explosion.
I think he might've been thinking of the other Vtech player... Cornelius Brown... or something like that. Tons of production, but small and slow... .is that the right name? It was something like that. Corey Moore was a speedy little stud that was born too early.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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I just looked it up... I think when the guy was trying to compare Jarvis Jones to Corey Moore, the guy he was probably meaning was Cornell Brown, (I said Cornelius, that's pretty close). He left school a year before Moore came to VTech. Brown was a 4-3 DE only kind of guy but as I recall he was shorter and in the low 260 range and also ran painfully slow. As I recall, Elvis Dumervil was compared to Brown when he came out of college (in a negative height/weight/speed manner).
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Hm. You are all making me want to re-evaluate. Jeremiah also had an interesting tweet. The best sack-getter in the SEC doesn't mean big-time NFL player in the past...

What was his 10 compared to the other top pass rushers though?

And Suggs ran a 4.8 I think.

Damn, a 4.9 is slowwww though. Wow.
And according to Mayock it was wind aided on a windy day. I have to believe that he is injured, I cannot believe he's that slow. Hopefully, he runs again maybe next month, but if he isn't injured, he will fall right out of round 1, maybe even round 2.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Can the guy sack the gosh darn quarterback? That's what I want to know.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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I think he might've been thinking of the other Vtech player... Cornelius Brown... or something like that. Tons of production, but small and slow... .is that the right name? It was something like that. Corey Moore was a speedy little stud that was born too early.
I went to school with Brown. No, he is talking about Moore. Moore was the high profile pass rusher, not Brown, and he was 220 lbs as Funbunch described. No not, he is not confusing Moore with Brown. Moore was not slow and he had TONS of college production. He was 5'11", basically a S who was allowed to rush the passer. Of course OTs struggled to block him. Again, college productions is not the be all end all some make it out to be. If that was the case, then the NFL would be ruled by QBs from Hawaii and Texas Tech. There are no rules, you have to look as each prospect and evaluate them as well as the systems they were in.

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Old 03-22-2013, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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Can the guy sack the gosh darn quarterback? That's what I want to know.
Pro QBs or college QBs? That's the entire question.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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And according to Mayock it was wind aided on a windy day. I have to believe that he is injured, I cannot believe he's that slow. Hopefully, he runs again maybe next month, but if he isn't injured, he will fall right out of round 1, maybe even round 2.
I think I'm at that point too. I look at the tape and I have to think he was faster with pads than his 4.9 time. That tells me he was hurt. But even if he was hurt, I wouldn't feel confident enough to draft him top 3. Not unless he comes back and proves he can run a 40 time under 4.8.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Anyone who watched Jarvis Jones run his 40's can see that he obviously wasn't running all that hard.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Anyone who watched Jarvis Jones run his 40's can see that he obviously wasn't running all that hard.
So, he skips the Senior Bowl and combine and no one knows why, now people are thinking he is injured not because this information was put out there, but because his performance was poor. He had a post workout interview and he said he "competed." When do the excuses run out?
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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So, he skips the Senior Bowl and combine and no one knows why, now people are thinking he is injured not because this information was put out there, but because his performance was poor. He had a post workout interview and he said he "competed." When do the excuses run out?

Exactly how bad is everyone supposed to hate this guy as a prospect?

He had a poor workout on top of some pretty dominant film over the past 2 seasons in the SEC. This draft class has several pass rushers in it that test extremely well yet are liabilities on the field.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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If Jones dropped to the Packers, I would be more than OK with them taking him and his poor 40 time.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I went to school with Brown. No, he is talking about Moore. Moore was the high profile pass rusher, not Brown, and he was 220 lbs as Funbunch described. No not, he is not confusing Moore with Brown. Moore was not slow and he had TONS of college production. He was 5'11", basically a S who was allowed to rush the passer. Of course OTs struggled to block him. Again, college productions is not the be all end all some make it out to be. If that was the case, then the NFL would be ruled by QBs from Hawaii and Texas Tech. There are no rules, you have to look as each prospect and evaluate them as well as the systems they were in.
Yes, I know exactly both players you are talking about. I also know that Cornell Brown is VTech's 2nd all time leading sacker, Moore is 3rd.

I think he was confusing Jones with Brown because Brown was slow and Moore was not.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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I meant Corey Moore. My reason is they both had insane college production (Moore had 31 sacks his last two college seasons) and that they are too small to transition well to the pros. For a 23 year old that has spent 4/5 years in college weight rooms he looks very thin. I think he is maxed out and will not transition well to the NFL. Moore went in the 3rd round and lasted one year at Buffalo.

Suggs had great stats and the knock wasn't just that he was slow, but also the pass happy PAC 10. Alot of ppl were saying he was able produce that high because he had extra snaps to rush the passer.

Let's not forget Suggs was 20 lbs heavier than Jones, no medical issues, and ran faster than Jones and he dropped. Jones at 4.9, 240lbs, cervical stenosis, is going to drop way way down in the draft
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Just to clarify, Suggs weighed 257 @ the combine and ran a 4.84 @ his pro day. Jarvis Jones weighed 245 @ the combine and ran a 4.92 at his pro day.

I'm not too worried about Jones, they are similar players but it's not like Jones is a Suggs clone. If Jones goes to a 4-3 defense he'll play SLB where Suggs would be DE. Jones may still go down to rush on passing downs, but unless he gains 20 pounds over his career I don't think he'll be a DE.

In the end, I expect Jones to go somewhere between 9 and 17. I think it really comes down to what doctors think of his neck more than his workouts.
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