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Old 03-24-2013, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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anyone else think the Giants may see if TT can take over Kenny's role of the deep safety? He may even start back there. Him-Rolle-Hill-Brown.

thoughts?
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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I can see that happen. But will his knee hold up? As much as I want it to, I'm not holding my breathe.

Also, looks like Osi is a Falcon. Not surprising at all. I saw that coming from a mile away.
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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that was the biggest lock from the start of FA haha.

and maybe we just like our deep safeties to have bad knees? Idk. It's an interesting position from really all aspects
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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Our FS situation makes me kind of nervous to be honest. I think DB is a serious need. CB and FS. Would love Xavier Rhodes, wouldn't mind Kenny Vacarro.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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Watching formations from Colin K.'s days at Nevada, and some of the stuff they did last year in the Pistol offense. I also did the same with the redskins, and decided to do informal breakdowns.

For the 9ers they run the pistol, and are very creative offensively. They run the read-option, but they also just run QB keepers via different formations and beat you that way. When you add traditional formations and concepts with play action with the flash fakes, and it's no surprise they had great success.

The redskins, on the other hand, ran their keepers differently. While the niners had good formations and blocking assigned so that Colin K. could run, the redskins keep plays were less formal. It's not surprise that bob got broken. It was basically a 4 wide or 5, and everyone would clear, and Bob would keep the ball and just run. Almost as if you were playing flag football or playground ball. Bob took a lot of hits that way, and he is a different body build then Colin K.

I broke down the niners offense on my formation sheet which I uncovered from my binders collecting dust. They do some great things. They basically run a keeper which is designed in a creative fashion.

Formation: 2 X 2 Pistol.





X....X.......OO[]OO.........TE........WR
...................QB
.................RB


What happens next is they tag the TE with a "home" tag, and motion the TE, in this case Walker back home.


..............................S

............S

CB........


...........CB
.......................B............B............. ....CB
....................E......T....T....E
X..........X......O..O..[]..O..O..................WR
............................QB
.......................RB
.............................TE




That's the formation before the ball is snapped. # 1 strong side stalk blocks the CB. The "slot" WR runs at the CB, contacts him, and chips off and hauls butt to the S. The RT blocks on the LE. The center and RG combo on the 3T with the Center chipping off to get to the B. The LG down blocks on the 1 T. The RE moves in reading the blocks, and the LT gets him and drives him to the middle of the formation like a down block.

Colin K. holds the ball out, and Hunter rushes and acts like he has the ball and goes to weakside A gap, where the combo block is taking place. This sucks in the LB on the offensive's left side, which was Bart Scott. This game was against the Jets last season. 7:32 1st Q, 1 and 10.

Colin K. flash fakes, and runs with the ball with Hunter maintaining pitch depth. In a way, they are optioning the Cb who was covering the slot wr. The slot, makes contact, like I said and then chips off to S. That leaves the CB having to make a decision. He has 2 guys coming at him. Hunter to his right side, and Colin K, to Hunter's left.

If it was Ice hockey it's a 2 on 1, or basket ball on a fast break 2 and 1. The defender freezes, and Colin K. hits his next gear and runs past him.

In this sense they ran out of the pistol, but no one was optioned in the traditional sense like you see with this system or the Houston veer where you option the playside DT and DE or spread option, where you option the backside DE.

In this all 5 fat people are blocking all 4 DL in this even front. In a way, you can say in this keeper, the CB was optioned, and left unblocked, because the WR went to block the safety.

It's great because you have Colin K and Hunter running past the CB into the secondary. In theory, then Hunter can block the incoming S playing the hash or the hole in center field, allowing Colin K. in theory to run to the house. He did get tripped up.

In reality, the system is amazing. It's well designed, well blocked, and there is order which in the redskin system lacks. Sure it's designed well at times, but the keeper plays are not well blocked, and thus not surprised this happened to Bob.

Overall, I came away a lot more impressed with the niners and the flexibility that their offense utilizes from the pistol-read option, so the well designed QB keeper plays. Factor in traditional passing and running concepts, and this system is fun to watch and hard to defend for a DC. That's a lot of stuff to put on your practice sheets for your scout team offense to line up in.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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NYG, do you think this is a fad or is here to stay? I think the read option has a place in the NFL.

My question is, it sounds like the defense's natural counter to this is they're going to smash the qb on every play, and force the qb to take a beating in an attempt to get them out of the option out of fear of injury to their quarterback.

Do you think this counter will work?
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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NYG, do you think this is a fad or is here to stay? I think the read option has a place in the NFL.

My question is, it sounds like the defense's natural counter to this is they're going to smash the qb on every play, and force the qb to take a beating in an attempt to get them out of the option out of fear of injury to their quarterback.

Do you think this counter will work?
Honestly man, I thought it was a fad. I may have to wait and see on it. It's sound Xs and Os wise. The niners version I am talking about. It depends on the redskins and what they do with Bob. They can continue keepers with better blocking or just stop it all together. I need to see this.

The niners is very, very sound. I am more of an Air Raid, Mumme, Leach, and Hatcher Air Raid guy in college and HS. In the pros, I like the Norv Turner, Air Coryell system.

So first glance this isn't my cup of tea, however, after getting myself to look at closely, I came away impressed. It's very sound. They had a 2 X 2 formation, and had the right side Slot WR move across to the left, making it a 3 X 1 formation, which is now a Trips Left.

The motioned guy now, or the left slot guy AND the niners LG, both pull, and Colin K. runs with 2 blocks ahead. It's beautiful to see actually BBD. It's play ground ball but with the right person, with the right build, with the right creativity.

The issue is this.. people are wondering about the read option, and that's 1 concept. The thing is people are overlooking straight up play ground keeper plays. That's the other component that's highly successful.

Smashing the QB is tough, because you have read what's going on and by then the ball is handed off, or the QB has it. Either way, the QB is moving. He is not handing it off and just waiting to get hit. He probably is carrying his fake through.

If he does have it, then the play is designed for him to keep it, so smashing him is hard, because he has 1 or 2 guys in front. So if you do "smash" him it's an angle tackle or pushing him on the side. There is no smashing.

Now.. if the redskins don't learn and have Bob run without blocking, sure keep hitting him. That's again, the keeper play. However, flash fakes, and then the pistol read option, things will be interesting. I just don't see them doing it right away. I need to see how they baby him when he comes back.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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What about the read option where the qb hands it off and fakes his scramble? My assumption was defenses are going to smash the qb on that play every time to get them out of that.

You can't flag it either bc they "fell" for the fake. The qb is a runner in that play and is subject to getting hit.

You don't see this strategy working?

I actually like the designed qb sneaks. I think you can mask it very well, plus you outnumber the defense when you draw it up.

I've been saying it all season, RGIII greatly benefitted from the scheme they ran this year. When he was in a traditional formation, he wasn't the same player. Not saying he can't become a great traditional thrower, but he has a long way to go. Luck and Russel Wilson are much more advanced as pocket passers than RGIII. Even Kaep is more advanced.

RGIII is so damn good at PA pass though. Best in the league at selling the PA.

Looking at it from a defense's perspective, I'm trying to think of ways to attack the read option while minimizing the thinking on the defense's end. Bc all the reading and reacting greatly slows the rush, and guys get stuck in mud and the run game gashes them bc of that.

So I was thinking blow up the A gap, and have one of your edge guys play wide, and just smash the qb every play. But that's a simple way of looking at it, I'd really have to look at the gaps to figure something out, and to be honest, I just don't have the time to look deep enough into it.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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What about the read option where the qb hands it off and fakes his scramble? My assumption was defenses are going to smash the qb on that play every time to get them out of that.

You can't flag it either bc they "fell" for the fake. The qb is a runner in that play and is subject to getting hit.

You don't see this strategy working?

I actually like the designed qb sneaks. I think you can mask it very well, plus you outnumber the defense when you draw it up.

I've been saying it all season, RGIII greatly benefitted from the scheme they ran this year. When he was in a traditional formation, he wasn't the same player. Not saying he can't become a great traditional thrower, but he has a long way to go. Luck and Russel Wilson are much more advanced as pocket passers than RGIII. Even Kaep is more advanced.

RGIII is so damn good at PA pass though. Best in the league at selling the PA.

Looking at it from a defense's perspective, I'm trying to think of ways to attack the read option while minimizing the thinking on the defense's end. Bc all the reading and reacting greatly slows the rush, and guys get stuck in mud and the run game gashes them bc of that.

So I was thinking blow up the A gap, and have one of your edge guys play wide, and just smash the qb every play. But that's a simple way of looking at it, I'd really have to look at the gaps to figure something out, and to be honest, I just don't have the time to look deep enough into it.


I don't know. I don't think it's that cut and dry as fans would think. That if he carries his rake out, and hands it off, just hit him. He is not looking at the RB running then. His head would be reading the DE, as if it's real, even though he hands the ball off. So if you're the DE and want to run at me, then I see you.

Also, if you don't crash on me, then I hand it off, which in that case, you are sort of hanging out. You won't read, and see me, and then run full speed at me. After all, I am eyeing you. You can't get me when you're going full speed, but I will be looking at you, and I don't have the ball, so for me my attention is at you.

I am not sure fans are understanding that it's not as simple as just hitting the guy time after time. Now, if it's a keeper and poorly designed, then sure. That hitting accumulated and got to Bob.

I agree on Bob and the system with the great flash fakes. He did a lot of those, and even scrambled around in a traditional sense. So after he threw the ball, he got hit like a normal pocket passer. So sure, those hits matter, but to hit him over and over then I need to see that.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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The wildcat was obsolete when teams blew up the A gap. The read option is basically an evolution of the wildcat, but I think blowing up the A gap should work the same way. Read option takes awhile to develop as a play. If you send heat up the gut and just overwhelm the point with rushers, that should work.

But you also leave yourself vulnerable in the pass game when you do that. That's where I'm struggling with it. The only thing I can think of is sink your safeties into the 2nd tier and drop your CBs way off the LOS and play deep thirds.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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The wildcat was obsolete when teams blew up the A gap. The read option is basically an evolution of the wildcat, but I think blowing up the A gap should work the same way. Read option takes awhile to develop as a play. If you send heat up the gut and just overwhelm the point with rushers, that should work.

But you also leave yourself vulnerable in the pass game when you do that. That's where I'm struggling with it. The only thing I can think of is sink your safeties into the 2nd tier and drop your CBs way off the LOS and play deep thirds.
Yeah but that was a straight up direct snap keeper used by a non QB skill player. This is their QB! That's what makes it a pain in the nuts. They can also run two big concepts: Read-option & QB Keeper. This also gets interesting because they ran run a traditional offense all out of the same formations. If a QB can process information at a high level, he can direct everyone like both Mannings can. The implications of this offers tons of flexibility.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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i love when BBD and NYG talk football and scheme back and forth. It makes me feel so dumb and smart at the same time
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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It's been a while but did a lot last night finding about all this. I know BBD likes it, and posted it because it's interesting, and people seem to worry about the read - option. However, I am equally worried about straight up QB keepers blocked properly like the ones the niners run.

Plus this is part of football that interests me the most.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Great work NYG, have some rep sir....

And I understand what BBD is alluding to but thing about the read option is just as effective as a passing offense as it is as a rushing attack. If you just crash down and blow up the gaps, its a easy pitch and catch with the hot read if your excuting out of the play fake. Like NYG was saying, you can't just sell out because as a defender you have keys to read. And any OC worth a damn, sees you being so deliberate with the gap floods, will use that against you.

And there's alot wrinkles to the Pistol, that we've yet to incoperate. You can run some Fly Sweep action out of it, to further give defenses something to ponder. Its one of the reason I really was hoping there was some way we could have grabbed Harvin. He was a tailor-made for our offense. A WR with his ability out of the backfield I think would have been too much for any defense to handle paired with CK and our RBs.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:58 AM    (permalink
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i love when BBD and NYG talk football and scheme back and forth. It makes me feel so dumb and smart at the same time
You know just as much as we do Scotty. Join in the convo. It's not like I'm a coach or anything, I'm just shooting **** with NYG, he's the one with the experience.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:02 AM    (permalink
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Great work NYG, have some rep sir....

And I understand what BBD is alluding to but thing about the read option is just as effective as a passing offense as it is as a rushing attack. If you just crash down and blow up the gaps, its a easy pitch and catch with the hot read if your excuting out of the play fake. Like NYG was saying, you can't just sell out because as a defender you have keys to read. And any OC worth a damn, sees you being so deliberate with the gap floods, will use that against you.

And there's alot wrinkles to the Pistol, that we've yet to incoperate. You can run some Fly Sweep action out of it, to further give defenses something to ponder. Its one of the reason I really was hoping there was some way we could have grabbed Harvin. He was a tailor-made for our offense. A WR with his ability out of the backfield I think would have been too much for any defense to handle paired with CK and our RBs.

Yeah and that's why I think it's here to stay. Defenses may catch up to the current plays but theres so many wrinkles they can add that will make it so difficult to defend. I really don't have an answer for it, which is why I'm very curious to see what defenses come up with.

I do think this forces you to play a lot more zone coverage. I don't see how you can deploy a man heavy defense vs the read option. It's asking to get run all over.

It also makes me wonder if the Tampa 2 is in fact the best defense moving forward (gulp...) bc you have to have speed vs this misdirection offense. And you have to run zone. But Tampa is so simple, any qb worth a damn should pick it apart.

It's really tough to figure out. I want to buy Rex Ryan's book, he has a chapter in it about defending the read option using the 46. It will shed a lot of light into stopping this offense. I prefer press man coverage and aggressive fronts, so I would be curious to read that and see what Rex cooks up vs the read option.

Now that you mention Harvin, Tavon Austin could make a ton of sense for you guys. And you have the ammo to move up and get him.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:25 AM    (permalink
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NYG, the more I think about it, you're right. I can't figure this out. Bc they can line up in pistol and run just about any type of play out of the pistol. It can be read option, it can be a keeper qb run, it can be a power gap, it can be a trap, it can be a PA pass out of the read option, a PA pass out of a standard run, it can be a straight up pass play with standard concepts, there's just so many things you can do and it's almost impossible to figure it out.

It forces your defense to do way too much thinking out there. And I've always felt, that when defenders are thinking, they're not moving, and when you're not moving, you're getting beat. That's why I always felt that simplifying the defense and allowing them to use their athleticism as much as possible was the best method of defense bc you remove all the false steps. That's why I love aggressive press man defense. It's simple (for the defenders, complex for the offenses bc they have to adjust their protections and recognize where the rush is coming from).

But I don't see how you can eliminate the thinking needed to combat this offense. There's gonna be a TON of false steps on defense, and you're gonna get gashed.

I really want to read up on this and see how defenses combat it.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:28 AM    (permalink
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As always it's all going to come down to the front 4. If they are collapsing the line quick enough it's going to be difficult for the offense to run the read.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:31 AM    (permalink
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It's not that simple though. If anything, this slows down the front 4. Bc if they just shoot up the field and try to blow up gaps that leaves the LBs out to dry vs these misdirection runs, and one false step by anyone in that front 7 in an aggressive penetrating scheme could mean a huge play for the offense.

If anything, the 2 gap 34 defense, which was pretty much a dead scheme for the last 7 years bc it's keys were dated vs a pass heavy league, may become popular again if this offense picks up steam.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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It's not that simple though. If anything, this slows down the front 4. Bc if they just shoot up the field and try to blow up gaps that leaves the LBs out to dry vs these misdirection runs, and one false step by anyone in that front 7 in an aggressive penetrating scheme could mean a huge play for the offense.

If anything, the 2 gap 34 defense, which was pretty much a dead scheme for the last 7 years bc it's keys were dated vs a pass heavy league, may become popular again if this offense picks up steam.
If they are getting there quick enough it's going to disrupt the timing of the QB and RB. The LB's can then jump up to the next level. If they don't have time to run misdirection it's not going to work.

With the Skins and now Eagles O in our division we're going to find out soon enough if Coughlin knows what to do with this type of offense. Fewelll better have bought a nice new thinking cap.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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I shouldn't say 3-4 or 4-3 anymore. I need to stop doing that. I should just say a 2 gap front. One thing I want everyone to start thinking, when thinking about defense is, don't think about 4-3 or 3-4 anymore. That's not a complete way of looking at defense.

You gotta look at it as gaps. How you defend gaps. You can run a 2 gap 4-3, you can run a 2 gap 3-4. It's the same ****. How you defend gaps defines your front.

A "hybrid" defense uses both 2 gap and 1 gap concepts in the same play. We are technically a hybrid defense bc we have our DTs make 2 keys, and our Ends play 1 gap. And we do it out a 43 front. But the gap integrity is what's important to remember. EVERYTHIING you do on defense starts with gap assignments.

Everything.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:38 AM    (permalink
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If they are getting there quick enough it's going to disrupt the timing of the QB and RB. The LB's can then jump up to the next level. If they don't have time to run misdirection it's not going to work.

With the Skins and now Eagles O in our division we're going to find out soon enough if Coughlin knows what to do with this type of offense. Fewelll better have bought a nice new thinking cap.
That's fine, but this method of attacking the read option is feast or famine. So we can blow it up for a 3 yard loss on one play then get gashed for 20 on the next play. That's the problem with this style of defense. It's not very sound. You need guys to hold gaps or you're dead in the water half the time.

It really is intriguing to think about. I want to read up on how this is defensed bc it's a fascinating chess match.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:46 AM    (permalink
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That's fine, but this method of attacking the read option is feast or famine. So we can blow it up for a 3 yard loss on one play then get gashed for 20 on the next play. That's the problem with this style of defense. It's not very sound. You need guys to hold gaps or you're dead in the water half the time.

It really is intriguing to think about. I want to read up on how this is defensed bc it's a fascinating chess match.
Yes 100% it is. 1st down is going to be very important against these teams. They aren't going to run the read option 2nd and 3rd with long to go. It's one of the reason I think it's very important that we stop the run game this year. We got killed all year on 2nd and 3rd and short.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:03 AM    (permalink
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Yes 100% it is. 1st down is going to be very important against these teams. They aren't going to run the read option 2nd and 3rd with long to go. It's one of the reason I think it's very important that we stop the run game this year. We got killed all year on 2nd and 3rd and short.
SF and Washington are very committed to their formations, I can see them running it even on 2nd down when it's 2nd and 10.

I think that's why we are hearing whispers of us wanting to simplify our defense. They know they're going to have to simplify it for our defenders to play against this style. We can't specialize as much anymore. Gotta give these guys 1 job and let them be athletes.

If this offense results in us getting rid of the option zones and simplifying our keys for our defenders across the fronts, then it could be a blessing in disguise. Bc we desperately needed to do that anyway.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:56 AM    (permalink
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Kevin Boothe back to the Giants on 1 year deal. Terms not reported yet.
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