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Old 03-20-2013, 02:31 AM    (permalink
diabsoule
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Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
Watching how he moved around today I'm going to say he would be long gone before the 15th pick.
It was surprising to me that his stock ever fell in the first place. Who knows if his Pro Day performance was enough to pick it up after his combine performance.
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:54 AM    (permalink
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This whole "stock" thing gets me every year. In the team's eyes, he's probably been around the same spot, but the MEDIA is the one who adjusts things. They like to overreact to things like the combine.

It just comes down to the whole draftnik/Scout debate...
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
stlouisfan37
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I think Werner ends up at LB, just depends who drafts him. Let him drop about 15# and I think his athleticism is more apparent.

Hugh Douglass was one of those hard nosed, gritty players who was thought to get sacks more on effort and sheer power instead of freaky athleticism.

Mike Singletary was hard nosed. Even for the 1980s he was undersized for MLB.

White TEs I think nowadays are described as athletic and not just great route runners, because the top prospects usually are elite athletes for the position.

But yeah the scouting report stereotypes are pretty much set in stone.
No matter how you get it done, just get it done.
D'Marco Farr was a gritty/hardnosed/high motor guy.

What I find interesting is that I have never seen a white DLineman with the label "inconsistent motor/tends to take plays off." They are never good enough athletes to get away with being lazy, even for one play. Black guy takes a play off, he gets hollered at and then comes back and kicks ass the next play. And he gets the label "inconsistent motor/tends to take plays off." White guy takes a play off and he is stuffing his body parts back up his ass until next season.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by stlouisfan37 View Post
D'Marco Farr was a gritty/hardnosed/high motor guy.

What I find interesting is that I have never seen a white DLineman with the label "inconsistent motor/tends to take plays off." They are never good enough athletes to get away with being lazy, even for one play. Black guy takes a play off, he gets hollered at and then comes back and kicks ass the next play. And he gets the label "inconsistent motor/tends to take plays off." White guy takes a play off and he is stuffing his body parts back up his ass until next season.
The flip side of that is you have near freak athletes like Cooper Taylor and Sam McGuffie who can't get an invite to the combine. Nothing against you but i'd say deal with it.

On a slightly related topic i had the impression of Werner, at least early on in the season, that he did exactly what you're saying, and that is take plays off or give up on plays.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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The flip side of that is you have near freak athletes like Cooper Taylor and Sam McGuffie who can't get an invite to the combine. Nothing against you but i'd say deal with it.

On a slightly related topic i had the impression of Werner, at least early on in the season, that he did exactly what you're saying, and that is take plays off or give up on plays.
If you don't mind, which games did you notice that in?
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by diabsoule View Post
Exactly. For a team like the Saints, who need to improve their pass rush, their main question should be: Can player "x" get after the QB? In Werner's case that answer is unequivocally "YES". 3-4 rushbackers are best known for getting after the QB first and foremost and that will be the main responsibility for Werner. Rush the QB and at least try to stop the run. 3rd would be falling back into coverage which he's capable of, he just doesn't excel at but which 3-4 rushbackers do?
I see Werner in the same equation as Jones, Jordan, and Ansah. Of these 4 players, I see Werner as having the least amount of upside, the least amount of athleticism, and the least amount of speed and explosion. He has better size than Jordan and Jones, but I see both of them having the frame to get into the 255-260 range, so it isn't a huge advantage. I also think that adding bulk would not help Werner's game, as it would have a negative effect on his speed and quickness. Ansah is a freak of nature and has a ton more upside. Overall, I see him being the last of this group taken, and I can also see guys like Mingo, Montgomery or Moore going before him as well.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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If you don't mind, which games did you notice that in?
Early on. Clemson, BC, NC state. It seemed like if the play was away from him he wasn't running anything down. I thought he was more focused on every play by the end of the season.

I'm a fan so not really downgrading him and the NFL is such a situational league that you can certainly let it all hang out on every play.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Early on. Clemson, BC, NC state. It seemed like if the play was away from him he wasn't running anything down. I thought he was more focused on every play by the end of the season.

I'm a fan so not really downgrading him and the NFL is such a situational league that you can certainly let it all hang out on every play.
It is possible.

As a FSU fan, I can say I never really noticed a play where he completely gave up on. I don't mind calling out our players especially when a lot is expected from them like this past season.

I know in the BC game, the 1st series they came right down the field and had a 1st n goal at the 5. He was instrumental and stopping them on the next 4 downs to hold them from scoring.

The NC State game - our whole defense went complete fail in that 2nd half, particularly 4th Q. Part of that was horrible adjustments by Stoops after halftime, and part was our defense was literally on the field whole 2nd half.

Clemson game. We came out with that lost look in 1st half and thats why they jumped all over us. But he was all world in 2nd half when we shut them down and came back.

I can understand some plays here in there, but overall I think his motor has never been questioned by FSU fans.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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The flip side of that is you have near freak athletes like Cooper Taylor and Sam McGuffie who can't get an invite to the combine. Nothing against you but i'd say deal with it.
On a slightly related topic i had the impression of Werner, at least early on in the season, that he did exactly what you're saying, and that is take plays off or give up on plays.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting I deal with? I was merely making light of some of the typical "labels" that I find interesting in the draft process. They are stereotypes for sure, and none are specific or inclusive of everyone. For what it's worth, my panties aren't bunched up:-)
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure what you're suggesting I deal with? I was merely making light of some of the typical "labels" that I find interesting in the draft process. They are stereotypes for sure, and none are specific or inclusive of everyone. For what it's worth, my panties aren't bunched up:-)
Nothing personal. just venting.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:28 AM    (permalink
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He's a weird prospect IMO. He's strong, plays with solid leverage, and has violent hand usage, but at the same time he struggles to rush the passer inside. He is definitely explosive off the snap, and has a great first step, but I don't see really great closing speed or second effort. He flows to the ball well, has good football instinct but he just isn't very fast to the ball or a good chase and tackle lineman. He's actually pretty good in space which is really weird for a guy his size. I don't really know where to mock him, I feel a lot of his ability contradicts each other. I feel like he has the traits to be a great player but I don't feel like he's very polished at all. I think he'd be a fine LDE though, he is stout against the run and he'll have a mismatch with his explosion off the snap against generally slower RTs. He has the tools to succeed at a RDE, but I think facing more athletic linemen is really going to reveal the weakness in his pass rushing techniques. And I don't see him as an effective pass rusher right now if he doesn't beat a guy around the edge, as that second effort isn't there. He kind of reminds me of like Robert Ayers, can't really think of anything that is really accurate.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:01 AM    (permalink
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I've been a big fan of Bjoern Werner ever since this last CFB season and was wanting the Saints to be able to able to draft him when they ran a 4-3. Now, I'm still hoping they're able to draft him even though they run a 3-4. I've been trying to justify them drafting him and finally found a similar comparison to him as far as NFL scouting combine numbers go.

This is what I found.

Bjoern Werner
40 - 4.83
Bench - 25 reps
Vertical - 31"
Broad Jump - 111"
3 Cone - 7.30
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.40

Paul Kruger
40 - 4.83
Bench - 24 reps
Vertical - 32.5
Broad Jump - 108
3 Cone - 7.52
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.47

I know this doesn't prove that Werner can make the transition but I think it helps back it up that the potential is there.

What do y'all think?
I think that its absolutely ridiculous that Werner is a projected 1st round pick and Catapano is a projected 7th round pick by some people. Compare them.

Bjoern Werner .93 sacks per game and 1.29 tackles for loss and 1 forced fumble on season...weighs 255 lbs.

40 - 4.83
Bench - 25 reps
Vertical - 31"
Broad Jump - 111"
3 Cone - 7.30
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.40

Mike Catapano 1.2 sacks per game and 1.5 TFL per game and 3 forced fumbles on season...weighs 271 lbs.

40 - 4.67
Bench - 33 reps
Vertical - 37.5"
Broad Jump - 116"
3 cone - 7.03
20 yard shuttle - 4.21

Catapano is better in EVERY single catagory...WAY better in some! Bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic and even better production on the field (granted lower competition) its all politics...my opinion anyway
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:19 AM    (permalink
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I think that its absolutely ridiculous that Werner is a projected 1st round pick and Catapano is a projected 7th round pick by some people. Compare them.

Bjoern Werner .93 sacks per game and 1.29 tackles for loss and 1 forced fumble on season...weighs 255 lbs.

40 - 4.83
Bench - 25 reps
Vertical - 31"
Broad Jump - 111"
3 Cone - 7.30
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.40

Mike Catapano 1.2 sacks per game and 1.5 TFL per game and 3 forced fumbles on season...weighs 271 lbs.

40 - 4.67
Bench - 33 reps
Vertical - 37.5"
Broad Jump - 116"
3 cone - 7.03
20 yard shuttle - 4.21

Catapano is better in EVERY single catagory...WAY better in some! Bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic and even better production on the field (granted lower competition) its all politics...my opinion anyway

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Old 03-26-2013, 04:32 AM    (permalink
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I see Werner in the same equation as Jones, Jordan, and Ansah. Of these 4 players, I see Werner as having the least amount of upside, the least amount of athleticism, and the least amount of speed and explosion. He has better size than Jordan and Jones, but I see both of them having the frame to get into the 255-260 range, so it isn't a huge advantage. I also think that adding bulk would not help Werner's game, as it would have a negative effect on his speed and quickness. Ansah is a freak of nature and has a ton more upside. Overall, I see him being the last of this group taken, and I can also see guys like Mingo, Montgomery or Moore going before him as well.
If Jones had the frame to put on 15-20, which thankfully, he doesn't, Rich Eisen would kick his ass in the 40.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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I think that its absolutely ridiculous that Werner is a projected 1st round pick and Catapano is a projected 7th round pick by some people. Compare them.

Bjoern Werner .93 sacks per game and 1.29 tackles for loss and 1 forced fumble on season...weighs 255 lbs.

40 - 4.83
Bench - 25 reps
Vertical - 31"
Broad Jump - 111"
3 Cone - 7.30
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.40

Mike Catapano 1.2 sacks per game and 1.5 TFL per game and 3 forced fumbles on season...weighs 271 lbs.

40 - 4.67
Bench - 33 reps
Vertical - 37.5"
Broad Jump - 116"
3 cone - 7.03
20 yard shuttle - 4.21

Catapano is better in EVERY single catagory...WAY better in some! Bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic and even better production on the field (granted lower competition) its all politics...my opinion anyway
The thing is pro days are about determining athletic levels and not football ability. I have a hard time seeing Catapano achieving the level of success that Werner did at FSU, i guess we'll never know.

As for politics, scouts aren't sitting around saying lets stick it to the Princeton guy. What scouts make their reputation on is finding the next Jared Allen out there and maybe this guy is that guy. At the end of the day i think Mike will get drafted closer to where he should be drafted and might turn out to be one of the steals of the draft. As they say it's not an exact science.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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The thing is pro days are about determining athletic levels and not football ability. I have a hard time seeing Catapano achieving the level of success that Werner did at FSU, i guess we'll never know.

As for politics, scouts aren't sitting around saying lets stick it to the Princeton guy. What scouts make their reputation on is finding the next Jared Allen out there and maybe this guy is that guy. At the end of the day i think Mike will get drafted closer to where he should be drafted and might turn out to be one of the steals of the draft. As they say it's not an exact science.
well the big school guys have tons of footage against "better" talent...so I get that part. Less chance of being wrong if a guy has been successful over a period of time in the SEC. You are correct, maybe politics is the wrong word. But alot of talented small school guys def get overlooked.

There would be some irony if the Vikings ended up drafting him (they have a million picks). He could learn ALOT from a guy like Jarad Allen. Just posted a link on another thread that the Vikings worked him out this morning at his old HS in long island and reportedly were impressed enough to schedule him to fly to Minn to meet with Leslie Frazier and the D coordinator http://college2pro.com/showSingleArt...5HI9BA.twitter

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Old 03-26-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Vanden Bosch
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Vanden Bosch
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Thanks for reeling this thread back in.

The way he was able to turn and run in his back peddle during his pro day i'm not sure you couldn't play Werner as a 3-4 olb like N.E. did with Mike Vrable. He showed excellant hands also.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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sorry to sidetrack thread.....Werner had a great year. he was a very good player but maybe a bit overrated as a pro i think. Does he have enough speed to play LB effectively in NFL?
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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Football isn't workout numbers.

I don't see Werner at OLB but thats just me.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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Football isn't workout numbers.

I don't see Werner at OLB but thats just me.
He'd spend most of his time rushing the passer. You wouldn't have sold me on Clay Matthews being an OLB either.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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I'm still with the group that believes his most value will come at 4-3 DE.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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Yeah....So...Whats up...

"The Sideline View's Lance Zierlein notes that all of FSU DE Bjoern Werner's 13 sacks took place without the help of a blitz."
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Yeah....So...Whats up...

"The Sideline View's Lance Zierlein notes that all of FSU DE Bjoern Werner's 13 sacks took place without the help of a blitz."
Somewhat less impressive when 6.5 of those sacks came in a 3 game run against Wake Forrest, Savannah State and Murray State.

Completely agree with your point about his best fit being at 4-3 DE.

Werner puzzles me. Definitly one of the 3 guys I have the hardest time evaluating in this class.
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Somewhat less impressive when 6.5 of those sacks came in a 3 game run against Wake Forrest, Savannah State and Murray State.

Completely agree with your point about his best fit being at 4-3 DE.

Werner puzzles me. Definitly one of the 3 guys I have the hardest time evaluating in this class.
Plus he had 3.5 against Florida, who may have had one of the more porous O-lines in the country.

I think you can move Werner around and do some things with him. At his pro day he showed me an abilty to backpeddle and turn his hips also showed some real nice hands. Not sure you couldn't use him like Belichick used Mike Vrable.
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