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Old 03-26-2013, 02:20 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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The 49ers don't have a great secondary, but they get around that by playing a lot of Cover 2. They have stud LBs who can cover so much ground in the middle of the field, all they have to do is play umbrella coverage on the back end and the pressure they get in the front 7 is enough that it works.

No defense in the league is flawless. That's the FA era, you're not gonna have a perfect team. The 49ers are probably the closest thing to a complete team the league has.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
The 49ers don't have a great secondary, but they get around that by playing a lot of Cover 2. They have stud LBs who can cover so much ground in the middle of the field, all they have to do is play umbrella coverage on the back end and the pressure they get in the front 7 is enough that it works.

No defense in the league is flawless. That's the FA era, you're not gonna have a perfect team. The 49ers are probably the closest thing to a complete team the league has.
It's basically a team with an elite offensive line, good skill position players on offense, a good (but young) QB, and a defense that's top-heavy with 2-3 truly great players (one of whom is older and more injury prone now - Justin Smith) and very little depth behind them.

I could easily see them having a top-5 offense next year, but I'd bet money that their defense will probably not be in the top-10 next year.

As far as "complete" teams, I'd take Seattle and Denver over San Francisco in a heartbeat.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Well for one, you have to get the players right if you want to critique how they aren't any good. For two, it's obvious to tell you're just reaching when you specifically said "I would take many teams 3-4 OLBers over theirs" and you go on to list Seattle and name a bunch of 4-3 DE's and guys who have never played 3-4 OLB. Way to make your point. Kansas City is just trolling so we'll overlook that, GB has one OLB, one, so you can't just take Mathews and invent anybody on the other side and think he's better then what we have seen from Ahmad Brooks. Most people wouldn't take Washington either but at least their respectable.
You do realize that the scheme that Seattle plays is called the 4-3 under and is widely recognized as more of a 3-4 scheme than a 4-3 scheme? The SAM linebacker in that scheme plays a 3-4 OLB role and the weakside DE is called the "Predator" and rushes from a 2-point stance. This is the defense that Billy Davis will run in Philly this coming season and everyone is considering them a new 3-4 team.

Kansas City is trolling? Justin Houston and Tamba Hali are widely recongnized as one of the best pass rush tandems in the league right now. Just because the rest of the team sucked donkey last year, that doesn't mean that Hali/Houston weren't great.

I'll take my chances with 2nd year of Nick Perry (elite talent) over Manny Lawson or whoever else the 49ers trot out there next year.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
I'll take my chances with 2nd year of Nick Perry (elite talent) over Manny Lawson or whoever else the 49ers trot out there next year.
Nick Perry is far from an elite talent.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
You do realize that the scheme that Seattle plays is called the 4-3 under and is widely recognized as more of a 3-4 scheme than a 4-3 scheme? The SAM linebacker in that scheme plays a 3-4 OLB role and the weakside DE is called the "Predator" and rushes from a 2-point stance. This is the defense that Billy Davis will run in Philly this coming season and everyone is considering them a new 3-4 team.

Kansas City is trolling? Justin Houston and Tamba Hali are widely recongnized as one of the best pass rush tandems in the league right now. Just because the rest of the team sucked donkey last year, that doesn't mean that Hali/Houston weren't great.

I'll take my chances with 2nd year of Nick Perry (elite talent) over Manny Lawson or whoever else the 49ers trot out there next year.


None of that matters. You specifically said 3-4 OLBers. None of those 4 players have every been that who you listed. It's nice that it makes your list look longer and all that but putting full time 4-3 DE's and thinking that we can correlate that to OLBers in a new scheme completely defeats the point you were trying to make.


And stop saying Manny Lawson. Please. You can't be sitting here trying to argue for a point you're completely clueless on. Not only do you have no idea who Ahmad Brooks is, you clearly don't know how well he has played since moving to that position. They didn't give him a 6 year 40 million extension because of his average play there.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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That is true, I overlooked Seattle. Seattle can definitely compete with SF as the most complete team in the league. I think Seattle has the best defense in the league for sure. SF has a better offense though.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
That is true, I overlooked Seattle. Seattle can definitely compete with SF as the most complete team in the league. I think Seattle has the best defense in the league for sure. SF has a better offense though.
As a niner fan I agree, but I'm not too sure how long it'll last. Lynch is on another level and Wilson is amazing.

And right now I'd take their D. So deep. That secondary is horrifying.

Last edited by fatso : 03-26-2013 at 07:26 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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Put me on the list of people thinking that Seattle takes a step back. Not for any reason other than a hunch. Super talented and deep team but I'm not sure if they can meet the expectations with a second year QB. Hope I'm wrong though, they're a great team to watch and get behind if they aren't playing your squad.

#FailMary inspired.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I think people were criticizing making Baltimore a top 10 team after losing 4 starters from a less than stellar D last season.
The question should be do you think the Ravens D will be as good next year??
I don't.
I think the Ravens defense actually improves quite a bit from their regular season play last year. Getting Webb, Suggs, & Ngata healthy are major gains. Doom is an improvement over Kruger and he should rotate nicely with Upshaw getting more experience.

It sucks to lose Ellerbe but the price was too high and ILB aren't that hard to find. From a leadership perspective losing Ray is indescribable for the franchise, but his play was a negative on the field this last year. He just couldn't make plays and that why he chose to retire. Losing Reed and Pollard sucks, but it had to be done pretty much.

Last year the Ravens really struggled up front at stopping the run. Cody and Kemo were lacking at NT. With Suggs and Ngata hurt too, their play wasn't nearly as effective. Adding two vet DEs should help the DL and Ngata is going to kick into the NT spot so we should see a major improvement in the interior run stopping.

We need safeties and an ILB but we are pretty set everywhere else on the defense.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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1) San Francisco
2) Denver
3) Baltimore
4) New England
5) Green Bay
6) Seattle
7) New York Giants (streaky, cut dead weight, potentially healthy Nicks)
8) Atlanta
9) Houston
10) Cincinnati
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:36 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by fatso View Post
As a niner fan I agree, but I'm not too sure how long it'll last. Lynch is on another level and Wilson is amazing.

And right now I'd take their D. So deep. That secondary is horrifying.
Yeah it's close. It's real close. I think right here right now, SF and Seattle are in my eyes without question the 2 most talented teams in the NFL.

We'll see if that's the case after the draft, but I think nothing will change.

Having that said, the SB winner isn't always the most talented team on paper, so there's the challenge for these 2 teams. I like Seattle in the SB, but I'm not sure if Wilson is ready yet.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Peyton Manning did enough to win that game last year in the playoffs.

Rahim Moore single-handedly gave the game to the Ravens, so no, Manning is still fully capable of winning a another Super Bowl if his defense decides to actually show up and play.
Woah, single-handedly is a little strong. Yea, he blew a coverage badly but there was one hell of a bomb by flacco judging and knocking down a moonshot ball like that isnt as easy as you think. A lot of stuff happenned the first 59 minutes of the game that put the Broncos in a situation where the Ravens had the opportunity to pull of the win at the end.

Peyton got two touchdowns from his return team, and still couldnt protect the lead. He threw a pick 6 early on that swung the momentum of the game back in the Ravens' favor after a PR TD helped the Broncos jump out to an early lead. And when it was anyones game in OT, he threw a pick that essentially ended the game. Dont get me wrong, Peyton made a lot of great throws in that game, but, as usual, he pressed too hard in the playoffs and made mistakes. IMO, the Broncos have very nice talent and I think Peyton throwing to that trio of receivers is nasty, and Von Miller is already one of the leagues elite players. But there are some issues on the roster, and quite frankly I dont think Peyton is going to lead this team to a SB. In general, he has never been good in the playoffs, the one year he won the SB, his defense played incredibly and he mostly took on a game-manager role. Peyton is without a doubt a top 5 QB in the regular season, but come playoff time, theres at least 10 QBs Id take over him.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:45 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
Woah, single-handedly is a little strong. Yea, he blew a coverage badly but there was one hell of a bomb by flacco judging and knocking down a moonshot ball like that isnt as easy as you think. A lot of stuff happenned the first 59 minutes of the game that put the Broncos in a situation where the Ravens had the opportunity to pull of the win at the end.

Peyton got two touchdowns from his return team, and still couldnt protect the lead. He threw a pick 6 early on that swung the momentum of the game back in the Ravens' favor after a PR TD helped the Broncos jump out to an early lead. And when it was anyones game in OT, he threw a pick that essentially ended the game. Dont get me wrong, Peyton made a lot of great throws in that game, but, as usual, he pressed too hard in the playoffs and made mistakes. IMO, the Broncos have very nice talent and I think Peyton throwing to that trio of receivers is nasty, and Von Miller is already one of the leagues elite players. But there are some issues on the roster, and quite frankly I dont think Peyton is going to lead this team to a SB. In general, he has never been good in the playoffs, the one year he won the SB, his defense played incredibly and he mostly took on a game-manager role. Peyton is without a doubt a top 5 QB in the regular season, but come playoff time, theres at least 10 QBs Id take over him.
Thank you. People act like that was the only play that mattered and it was the only fluke play. The 2 return tds Peyton got were on the same level. Peyton was good, but he was far from perfect.

Mannins physical talent has dropped a bit, but this is the most talented team he has been on since Harrison was in his prime. Thomas, Decker, And Welker are a sick wr core and the run game produces just fine. Manning has as good of a shot as ever to win again in the next 2-3 years.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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I think the Ravens defense actually improves quite a bit from their regular season play last year. Getting Webb, Suggs, & Ngata healthy are major gains. Doom is an improvement over Kruger and he should rotate nicely with Upshaw getting more experience.

It sucks to lose Ellerbe but the price was too high and ILB aren't that hard to find. From a leadership perspective losing Ray is indescribable for the franchise, but his play was a negative on the field this last year. He just couldn't make plays and that why he chose to retire. Losing Reed and Pollard sucks, but it had to be done pretty much.

Last year the Ravens really struggled up front at stopping the run. Cody and Kemo were lacking at NT. With Suggs and Ngata hurt too, their play wasn't nearly as effective. Adding two vet DEs should help the DL and Ngata is going to kick into the NT spot so we should see a major improvement in the interior run stopping.

We need safeties and an ILB but we are pretty set everywhere else on the defense.
You think adding a poor run defender in Dumervil will help the run defense? Honestly, I think people are overrating the Dumervil addition. He disappears(where was he in the playoff game?), and a liability against the run. Plus, his game is predicated on speed, you lose speed over time.

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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
Woah, single-handedly is a little strong. Yea, he blew a coverage badly but there was one hell of a bomb by flacco judging and knocking down a moonshot ball like that isnt as easy as you think. A lot of stuff happenned the first 59 minutes of the game that put the Broncos in a situation where the Ravens had the opportunity to pull of the win at the end.

Peyton got two touchdowns from his return team, and still couldnt protect the lead. He threw a pick 6 early on that swung the momentum of the game back in the Ravens' favor after a PR TD helped the Broncos jump out to an early lead. And when it was anyones game in OT, he threw a pick that essentially ended the game. Dont get me wrong, Peyton made a lot of great throws in that game, but, as usual, he pressed too hard in the playoffs and made mistakes. IMO, the Broncos have very nice talent and I think Peyton throwing to that trio of receivers is nasty, and Von Miller is already one of the leagues elite players. But there are some issues on the roster, and quite frankly I dont think Peyton is going to lead this team to a SB. In general, he has never been good in the playoffs, the one year he won the SB, his defense played incredibly and he mostly took on a game-manager role. Peyton is without a doubt a top 5 QB in the regular season, but come playoff time, theres at least 10 QBs Id take over him.
Rahim Moore actually plays that ball correctly, its an interception, and at worst it sets the Ravens up with a 4th down and 3 I think it was with about 30 seconds remaining in the game, and no timeouts.
Not to mention that pick 6 you point out, Decker was interferred with and it was not called.
I just find it ridiculous saying you would take 10 QB's over Peyton in the playoffs. Name them, please. Tell me what QB's you would take over Peyton in the playoffs.
Every team has a hole here or there, but Denver's team is right up there in terms of talent with everybody.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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In that situation, with seconds left on the game clock and the opposing team practically in their own end zone with NO TIME OUTS...

There is basically no excuse for letting a deep ball be completed. That should NEVER happen. All the safety has to do is play the deep, deep part of the field. Underneath throws should simply not concern the defense AT ALL.

Even if a WR catches a ball, the safety should be deep enough to tackle him, thereby forcing the team to jog upfield with the clock ticking.

The Ravens were absolutely gifted that game by Rahim Moore's horrific misplay and that's the bottom line.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
Woah, single-handedly is a little strong. Yea, he blew a coverage badly but there was one hell of a bomb by flacco judging and knocking down a moonshot ball like that isnt as easy as you think. A lot of stuff happenned the first 59 minutes of the game that put the Broncos in a situation where the Ravens had the opportunity to pull of the win at the end.
Seconds left on the game clock, no time outs, with your team near your own end zone, needing a touchdown just to tie the game, is absolutely not an "opportunity to pull off the win at the end".

That should be, in 99.99999999% of situations, a sure loss for that team. I literally don't think I've ever seen a game won by a team in that situation in all of my years of watching football prior to last year's playoffs.

It's literally the flukiest win by any football team I've ever personally witnessed.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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1. San Francisco (loads of talent, and loads of picks to bolster that talent.)

2. Atlanta (Very talented offense that may finally have a worthwhile RB, just a matter of how well they can hold that defense)

3. Seattle (Getting Percy Harvin on a team that went toe-to-toe and nearly won against the best of the NFL)

4. New England (Tom Brady and at least a possibly stable defense)

5. Denver (The defense got a bit worse, but Manning has the best offense since the Wayne/Harrison years of Indy)

6. Houston (This might be the last 1-2 years of their serious playoff contender window, and everything is in great, if not very deep, shape. Is Schaub good enough?)

7. Indianapolis (Luck's year 2 with a very young and getting more experienced team, this should be a good team, but I also think there's a pretty significant gap between 6 and 7)

8. Green Bay (they're aging, but Rodgers is still there, Clay Matthews can still perform to Clay Matthews standards, and the offense is still great)

9. Cincinatti (This team is as talented as any of the elite teams, save for the most important one. This team goes as far as Andy Dalton could take them.)

10. Chicago (they seem to be in a similar position as Minnesota, right down to the no #2 WR, but the difference in team upgrade between Cutler and Ponder is more than the difference between Peterson and Forte. It may as well be 10a and 10b, really)


It's a 6 horse race in my opinion, the next tier being 7-13 (throw in NYG, NO, and BAL)
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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Lotta guys have the Packers too high.
  1. 49ers
  2. Seahawks
  3. Patriots
  4. Broncos
  5. Falcons
  6. Packers
  7. Texans
  8. Ravens
  9. Saints
  10. Giants/Redskins (tie)
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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The Packers have to shore up that defense. Their defense is awful. And it's one of the worst tackling defenses I ever seen.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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Seconds left on the game clock, no time outs, with your team near your own end zone, needing a touchdown just to tie the game, is absolutely not an "opportunity to pull off the win at the end".

That should be, in 99.99999999% of situations, a sure loss for that team. I literally don't think I've ever seen a game won by a team in that situation in all of my years of watching football prior to last year's playoffs.

It's literally the flukiest win by any football team I've ever personally witnessed.
im still parial to this one.

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Old 03-28-2013, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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The Packers have to shore up that defense. Their defense is awful. And it's one of the worst tackling defenses I ever seen.
So, you watched one game of the Packers last year and it was the Niners playoff game, huh?

Cool. But nah, their defense isn't that awful. It's not great but it's certainly not awful and the potential is there to be pretty darn good.

Also, the Packers are aging? Yup. Youngest roster in the league. Friggin' old. What's that? Our starters, you mean? Yup. Youngest average starter in the league. Friggin' old. Now if you meant we lost two of our star players who got old, that's true. But Woodson was done last year and Jennings barely contributed, so pretty much moved on by now.

I don't pretend the Packers are the clearcut top team or even clearcut top 3 or 4.. but they're clearcut top 5 and the potential is easily there to be the best.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:52 AM    (permalink
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I don't pretend the Packers are the clearcut top team or even clearcut top 3 or 4.. but they're clearcut top 5 and the potential is easily there to be the best.
So you aren't saying they are top 3 or 4, but are absolutely top 5 and easily could be the best.

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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So, you watched one game of the Packers last year and it was the Niners playoff game, huh?

Cool. But nah, their defense isn't that awful. It's not great but it's certainly not awful and the potential is there to be pretty darn good.

Also, the Packers are aging? Yup. Youngest roster in the league. Friggin' old. What's that? Our starters, you mean? Yup. Youngest average starter in the league. Friggin' old. Now if you meant we lost two of our star players who got old, that's true. But Woodson was done last year and Jennings barely contributed, so pretty much moved on by now.

I don't pretend the Packers are the clearcut top team or even clearcut top 3 or 4.. but they're clearcut top 5 and the potential is easily there to be the best.

No, I saw plenty of Packers games actually. And yes, your defense is awful. And no, there's not much promising young talent. I'm not a fan of most of your talent on defense.

And if you don't think your defense is an awful tackling defense, then I don't know what to tell you.

Lemme guess, it's all Dom Capers fault right? One of the greatest DCs ever, it's his fault bc he mustve magically forgot how to coach defense?

No. The talent is mediocre at best. That's the problem.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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I actually really like the depth they have at CB going forward. Saw a lot of good things from Sam Shields last year, Casey Hayward and then Davon House showed flashes but was limited with his shoulder injury all season long. Tramon is still solid but good GOD he is atrocious vs the run and when it comes to tackling

Front 7 is the main issue. LB corps is just weak outside of Clay. Didn't help that they lost Bishop all season and lost Nick Perry about 4 games in. They have a ways to go, no doubt. Safety play wasn't up to par and they need to get more physical up front
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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Love seeing the giants so low on people's lists. That's how you know we're gunna make another run this year.
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