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Old 03-28-2013, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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I really don't like the fact that we brought Rivers back. It's a waste of a roster spot.

He's never gonna stay healthy. And he wastes a spot on the depth chart for linebackers. I hope his roster spot doesn't prevent us from looking at LBs in the draft.
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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I actually like the Rivers resigning, I think he is a good option, while we develop the young guys we have and hopefully in the draft as well.

I don't see hs injuries as a big deal, it isn't like he did an ACL or anything, he broke his wrist prior to joining us, thats sorted and last season from memory it was hamstring issues, that happens and he is hardly alone there. Let's see how he goes this offseason.

One good example imho is LB Thomas Davis from the Panthers, he is 'injury prone', but just look how well he came back last season after his 3rd ACL, injuries much more serious than Rivers.

Rivers and Connor are both low risk, high reward type of guys. Rivers is also well entrenched in our system now so that is a plus.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:05 AM    (permalink
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He's always hurt. It's a waste of a body. I'm just done with him. Connor is the definition of meh to me. He's Blackburn with a different last name. I rather keep Chase (<3).

I just want to move on from all this dead weight and start fresh. We have a ton of dead weight on our roster that we need to move on from. It's like we're keeping them around for 1 more year hoping we can squeeze one more run out of them but we're really better off just moving on and starting fresh.

Give the young guys more reps.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:17 AM    (permalink
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Hell I rather have Stewart Bradley than Dan Connor. At least Bradley was a beast at some point in his NFL career, he was just derailed by injuries. Connor has always been a mediocre player.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:58 AM    (permalink
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Bradley is more injured than Rivers.

You need these guys on your team, BBD. You know that. You can't get rid of anyone and everyone on your roster who isn't young. You need guys who can be one year stop gaps and contribute. I like the Rivers signing. If he gives us something, great, if not then I don't think we were expecting much out of him.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, but Bradley is better when healthy imo. I'm not a huge Rivers guy.

I just hate putting band aids on a position that's plagued us for years now. Enough. Go get some real linebackers and our run defense won't suck.

Get some real linebackers and we won't get gashed down the middle of the field.

I do want to upgrade the secondary and DL first, but still. I just hate the bandaids.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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I don't like any of the DEs in the first round. DT, CB, OL, S,.. I am starting to like this Eric Reid. Also, I want to take a flyer on Lattimore in the 6 or 7th round. I think that would be a great investment.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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I don't like any of the DEs in the first round. DT, CB, OL, S,.. I am starting to like this Eric Reid. Also, I want to take a flyer on Lattimore in the 6 or 7th round. I think that would be a great investment.
Not a fan of Ansah?

I like Jordan and Mingo, but they're more 34 OLBs than 43 Ends.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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Not a fan of Ansah?

I like Jordan and Mingo, but they're more 34 OLBs than 43 Ends.
I like the potential, but I feel teams will over draft him because they will look at him and think JPP. JPP has guys like Tuck, Osi, and Kiwi to watch from. What if the bad team that over drafts him has no model to follow? There is a reason why all our DEs are drafted and are successful. They all learn from each other and veterans.

I like him, but I feel like he won't be there when we draft him. I like Jordan, and think he would be a good player. Mingo, I am not high on. I'd rather see who else is on the board at that time. Maybe Rhodes will be or one of the guards.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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I think i want Arthur Brown at 19. Get us a stalwart MLB for the next 10 years. No more of this musical chairs stop gap crap at MIKE
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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I like Arthur a lot but unless they are a stud LB I don't believe in taking a LB in the first round.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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He is a stud LB.

He's instinctive, fast, an all world tackler, great in coverage, great vs the run, he really is all around great. Very Bowman like.

His only flaw is he's 2 inches shorter than your prototypical guy. Who cares.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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He is a stud LB.

He's instinctive, fast, an all world tackler, great in coverage, great vs the run, he really is all around great. Very Bowman like.

His only flaw is he's 2 inches shorter than your prototypical guy. Who cares.
I disagree. He's a very very good linebacker but he's not a Von Miller or Patrick Willis type of LB. He will be a great LB but I don't think he's a game changer or someone you have to scheme for a lot.

And, again, LB position is just overrated. That's just I feel. I don't think he makes near the impact a DE, DT, CB, or even safety makes for our defense.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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In theory of course. But theres 2 things to note:

1. Patrick Willis doesn't grow on trees. If you are waiting for Patrick Willis to come around and shore up our LB core, you'll be waiting forever.

2. If all positions have an equal grade, then yes what you're saying is true. But prospects are graded individually. And if Brown is graded higher than anyone in those other areas, which he very well could be, then why wouldn't you take the better player?

Bc of position? Defense is a fluid group, all pieces work together to make the play work. A duck is a duck, whether it's in the secondary, LB core, or DL. You want to minimize your ducks. A good qb is gonna pick on a duck no matter where he is. The notion that a LB has less of an impact on defense than the other positions is not really true when you think of defense in that respect. The individual's overall performance is more relevant to impact than the position he plays.

For example, are you telling me you rather have Prince Amukamara over Patrick Willis? Prince is a very good CB. Willis is a great LB. But Prince "plays the more relevant position"

But who makes more of an impact? Willis. By far. Bc his talent determines his impact.

You go after the best talent. I rather draft a stud LB than a DE who's ceiling is slightly above average. That stud LB will have more impact bc he's more talented. Talented players make plays.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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I really like Brown as an option as an LB. I am not sure he is the best player available at 19, but he would be great in our system.

However, I would rather address a premium position with our #19. That is how we do well against the salary cap going forward.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I like Zavier Gooden as an OLB option in round 3, he has the speed athleticism and physicality that we need outside.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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In theory of course. But theres 2 things to note:

1. Patrick Willis doesn't grow on trees. If you are waiting for Patrick Willis to come around and shore up our LB core, you'll be waiting forever.

2. If all positions have an equal grade, then yes what you're saying is true. But prospects are graded individually. And if Brown is graded higher than anyone in those other areas, which he very well could be, then why wouldn't you take the better player?

Bc of position? Defense is a fluid group, all pieces work together to make the play work. A duck is a duck, whether it's in the secondary, LB core, or DL. You want to minimize your ducks. A good qb is gonna pick on a duck no matter where he is. The notion that a LB has less of an impact on defense than the other positions is not really true when you think of defense in that respect. The individual's overall performance is more relevant to impact than the position he plays.

For example, are you telling me you rather have Prince Amukamara over Patrick Willis? Prince is a very good CB. Willis is a great LB. But Prince "plays the more relevant position"

But who makes more of an impact? Willis. By far. Bc his talent determines his impact.

You go after the best talent. I rather draft a stud LB than a DE who's ceiling is slightly above average. That stud LB will have more impact bc he's more talented. Talented players make plays.
Eh, I'm probably not the person to debate this with simply because I don't think Patrick Willis is nearly as good as many believe. He's a great player, but in terms of real impact I do not think he's incredibly special. He has special talent but his overall impact is modest because other than tackling and covering (to an extent) he cannot do much. My main issue is that he is a terrible pass rusher and offers nothing there. With his speed and size there is zero reason he shouldn't be better at it. It's not just a scheme thing too. He's never done it well.

Second, his coverage ability is limited. He doesn't lock down TE's. TE's have had a lot of success vs. the 49ers. Again, that's not all his fault though. Due to his position he cannot always cover the TE.

But that's where my overall problem lies with LB's. Their impact is limited, especially when they don't offer anything in the pass rush area. Look at the 49ers. Their defense was atrocious in the playoffs despite one of the best (if not the best) LB corps in the NFL. This is a passing league that does not need to focus on the middle of the field where LB's cover to be successful. Deep balls, back shoulder fades, and throws outside the numbers are far more popular for a variety of reasons. You keep saying we need studs like Willis to stop the run, but hey, teams are running less and less. The 49ers failed because when it mattered their secondary could not cover and their pass rush was limited. Even with all-world LB's they could not get it done.

Also we cannot have studs at every position. You're right, a duck is a duck. Every team has them. It's the nature of the business with the salary cap. It's a matter of weighing what's best for the overall defense and team. Would we rather have a mediocre player at safety/CB or at LB? LB or DE? LB or DT? I understand it's not always cut and dry like that but there are lot of good players in this draft and I'm sure one will be at our pick. If there's no one we think is good, I'm fine with taking Brown. I highly doubt they will be the case though.

And, honestly, I'd take Prince over Willis no question. Prince is a great player and I think he has a ton potential to be a number one corner. CB is much much more valuable than LB and I think Willis is a bit overrated to begin with. Hence why I'm probably not a good person for this debate because I value DB/DL much more than LB.
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:20 AM    (permalink
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Forenci has a good point

Ultimately each team is limited in the resources it has (draft picks and salary cap) to build the team.

Every team has to prioritise.

I think Reese has done a very good job of building a consistently competitive roster. Of course it hasn't always worked out as planned.
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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I strongly disagree about Patrick Willis. He's a great blitzer, SF uses him as a blitzer often and he has a lot of success when he rushes. He rushes both outside and inside and has had a lot of success in that role.

Plus he's a very good coverage LB. SF plays a lot of Tampa and he's the Urlacher role to Bowman's Briggs role. He's one of the few LBs who can cover TEs in man, and while he's not a shut down he's well above average. How many MIKES in this league are trusted in man coverage vs a TE? Not many at all, and he's one of them. Think about how that opens up your playbook on defense.

And what everyone is missing is the most important point: How many Patrick Willis's are there in the league? How many Princes are there?

THAT's the most important factor. I can find another Prince relatively easily. They're available every draft. A Willis is not. That's a major factor when determining who to take.

And in zone coverage, a CB has no more value in coverage than a LB. None. Bc that LB is doing the same thing that CB is doing, he's defending an area. If the area is open, the ball is going there. So 50% of your pass coverage is equal off the bat.

Now the man coverage, yes, a CB is obviously more important here, but then you don't factor in the impact a LB makes in the run game. And with the read option gathering steam, this should only add to the value of a LB.

The bottom line, to me, all positions are of relatively the same value to me minus QB which easily trumps all positions, and pass rusher. And CB to a certain extent, but not the same as QB and DE.

Which is why I have no problem stocking up on DEs. But the overall point of the draft is talent acquisition. Your job is to build your team in a way that its more talented than the other team. To do this, you take the best players. And the best players are the most talented ones. You don't pass on a more talented player bc his position isn't as valuable. I don't agree with that.

Especially if we're drafting after the top 10. If we're talking top 10 picks, then maybe I can understand that. But after the top 10 picks, you go after the best talent.
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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And to be clear, if there's a tie in grade of a LB vs a CB, then yeah of course I'm taking the CB.

But that almost never happens. If a LB is on the board and is the highest graded player, I don't see why you would pass him up for a lesser graded CB just bc of the position he plays. I don't agree with that line of thinking.
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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The more I think of the read option, the more I think the 46 bear is the best way to combat it.



I think it offers the most difficult for offenses to run to the outside, and it really attacks the gaps and forces their hand. The issue is obviously vs PA pass, which puts strong emphasis on that SS, MIKE, CBs, and FS to really have a lot of range.

Rex uses this formation often vs heavy run sets. I definitely need to get his book and see how he combats the read option. His defense is my favorite in the league (scheme wise).
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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If I saw the defense do that as a QB or OC, I'd get everyone to flex out, and run empty. Then see how you play that, and go from there. That single high would be fun to high/low.
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Of course you would, but that's why the defense has checks and audibles too.

That formation is just the base, but you can run all sorts of variations and checks out of it to counter the offense. That formation is hard to block up so if they start flexing out to spread it out, you can audible on defense too.

The main take home message out of that formation is the bear. Bear means covering up the 2 guards and the center. That's a bear formation, everything else is variable.

But if you do that, and keep the MIKE clean from inside traffic, you might have some success.

I also was thinking the Flex defense could have a place again in the NFL bc of the read option for similar reasons.
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
And to be clear, if there's a tie in grade of a LB vs a CB, then yeah of course I'm taking the CB.

But that almost never happens. If a LB is on the board and is the highest graded player, I don't see why you would pass him up for a lesser graded CB just bc of the position he plays. I don't agree with that line of thinking.
That's what I said. If the best player available is a LB take him. I just find that highly unlikely with so many good players in this draft at other positions.

And let's be clear, Arthur Brown is no Patrick Willis, as much as I may not be a huge fan of him. That's big. You were literally just arguing a few weeks ago there was no way someone took Brown before our pick in the second round. Now he's a mid-first round talent? You said there were other players who went before him that were lesser than him as well last year too.
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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That's what I said. If the best player available is a LB take him. I just find that highly unlikely with so many good players in this draft at other positions.

And let's be clear, Arthur Brown is no Patrick Willis, as much as I may not be a huge fan of him. That's big. You were literally just arguing a few weeks ago there was no way someone took Brown before our pick in the second round. Now he's a mid-first round talent? You said there were other players who went before him that were lesser than him as well last year too.
Brown has really grown on me over the past few weeks, and his pro day made him a 1st rounder in my eyes. He had an incredible pro day. Couple that with his instincts and tremendous tackling ability, and his coverage skills, really the only thing Willis has on him is 10 lbs and 2 inches.

I still hope and pray he's there in the 2nd, but I really doubt it at this point. And while I'm hoping another talent is available at 19, would I be upset with Brown? Absolutely not. I have him as the best ILB in this draft, and really, from a defensive talent standpoint, I'm not too thrilled with the DTs, DEs (outside Ansah) in the 1st round.

The DBs are solid, but the 2 I like the most, Rhodes and Vaccaro could both be gone. So Brown could very well be the best defensive talent on the board at 19 to me.
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