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Old 03-28-2013, 04:35 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by I_C_DeadPeople View Post
Indeed. I am a Bengals fan and Dalton definitely had more zip on the ball in Year 2. He is still struggling with accuracy on deep balls and going through progressions. But his arm improved year over year, I imagine a lot of that was refining technique. I played a bit of QB when I was younger (a very bit..lol) but my best friends Dad was a Div III QB and he gave me some technique help and the difference was unbelievable.
Okay, and that's NOT improving arm strength, that's improving technique and I am believe that.
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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Okay, and that's NOT improving arm strength, that's improving technique and I am believe that.
I will clarify. The technique improvement turned into much higher velocity. I am over 50 now and last summer played a little flag football scrub game and I can still toss the ball quite a ways WITH the right technique. Clearly, guys like Brees and Dalton will never be Elway/Marino/Brock/George strength but they can definitely improve.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:48 AM    (permalink
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Okay, and that's NOT improving arm strength, that's improving technique and I am believe that.
I'm not sure what the bold part means. But he said that Dalton "had more zip on the ball" and that "his arm improved," and attributed it to an improvement of his technique. Dalton may not have any more strength, but if he's improving his motion so that the ball moves better through the air, the changes in his technique are going to be the direct cause of a ball which travels faster and goes farther, which are the things which people are typically talking about when they discuss a player's "arm strength."
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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Really? I bet your source is the clear blue sky. Those guys you mentioned could always throw the ball hard. Brady was a baseball player. I watched Breeze a million times in college and his arm strength appears to be the same if not a little weaker at this point.
I don't think he played a million games in college. If you did watch him then surely you remember him dinking and dunking about 30 to 40 times a game (Yeah he averaged something like 43 attempts a game in 3 years with them) with the occasional deep throw in one of the earliest forms of the spread passing offense. Yeah all of those 10 and 20 yard passes to Vinny Sutherland where he got a lot of the yards after the catch were amazing. Oh yeah and that year Chris Daniels did the same thing with 120+ catches his last year yet went ignored when he graduated, Vinny barely got a look running a 4.3 on campus being noted for being the fastest receiver in their history. Perhaps had they been born 10 years later it would be a different story, especially for Vinny. Brees did have some amazing plays but id say it was close to the airraid (although those guys kind of copied ideas from Tiller), and he did run close to 1k and 14 tds while he was there.

no, his arm with the Saints was much better than what it was with the Chargers. You can read about it in the very book he put out. Remember he had an injury, when he first came to the Saints camp 10 yard throws were falling in the dirt. What did he do, finish the rehab process and got his arm stronger and refined his technique. Saying that someone can't improve strength in their 20's is ridiculous. Improving technique can be more than just having the right technique like simply changing mechanics, I find it great to work out the core, combined with great technique will improve how hard/far you can throw/velocity etc., which means improving arm strength. Throwing the ball involves more than just the arm and a flick of the wrist. Its common sense man. You can improve it.

I wouldn't say Brees arm strength is weaker, it may appear that way because they have no true deep threat (last year) other one player who is very raw. He can still thread the needle on any route in between defenders with plenty of zip.

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Old 03-29-2013, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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To get back to Pro Day results: Central Arkansas had a WR named Jesse Gandy who measured in at 5'11" 148 lbs and was only able to muster up 1 on the bench press.


DO YOU EVEN LIFT, BRO?
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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To get back to Pro Day results: Central Arkansas had a WR named Jesse Gandy who measured in at 5'11" 148 lbs and was only able to muster up 1 on the bench press.


DO YOU EVEN LIFT, BRO?
5'11, 148# is sooooo skinny for a guy trying to make it in the NFL at any position.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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Wow. That is the thinnest player I have ever heard of. I'm fine with him just showing he can lift it.

google says he returned 2 kickoffs and a punt for touchdowns as a freshman and sophomore in the SEC (Ole Miss) before transferring.

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Old 03-30-2013, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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Didn't Honey Badgerzzz only do 4 reps of 225? Also Brandon Banks is a real small guy to - like 5'6 150 maybe?
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:04 AM    (permalink
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I was watching some footage of Jeff Driskel and #20 kept making circus catches. I thought it was a running back, but it turns out its a guy they were calling a tight end - Omarius Hines. He never put up big numbers at Florida, but they used him in a variety of ways, and like I said, he popped off the screen at me. Seemed like he caught everything thrown to him, and looked really quick and athletic. I looked up Florida's roster and found that he's a senior this year, and he put up some pretty solid numbers at Florida's Pro Day:

6'0"
215 lbs
4.50
34.5" vert
18 bench reps
10'2" broad
4.20 short shuttle
6.45 3-cone drill

That three-cone drill is pretty crazy. He looks like he has terrific hands and body control. Maybe route-running held him back from being featured more in the offense? He does look unpolished. He looks like exactly the kind of guy who could end up more productive in the NFL than he was in college. He looks like he could play multiple positions. Has anyone else noticed this guy?



The catch at 3:40 is awesome. He runs hard with the ball, too. I can see a team wanting to throw it to him a few times a game.

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Old 03-30-2013, 07:33 AM    (permalink
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good find Caulibflower! Hines appears to have potential as a slot receiver in the NFL.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure what the bold part means. But he said that Dalton "had more zip on the ball" and that "his arm improved," and attributed it to an improvement of his technique. Dalton may not have any more strength, but if he's improving his motion so that the ball moves better through the air, the changes in his technique are going to be the direct cause of a ball which travels faster and goes farther, which are the things which people are typically talking about when they discuss a player's "arm strength."
Typo, meant to say "can." Regardless of how you want to spin it, that is not improving arm strength, that's improving technique for a better result. The strength stays the same and you will see that when the QB is not in a position on the field where he can use optimal technique.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:30 AM    (permalink
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I don't think he played a million games in college. If you did watch him then surely you remember him dinking and dunking about 30 to 40 times a game (Yeah he averaged something like 43 attempts a game in 3 years with them) with the occasional deep throw in one of the earliest forms of the spread passing offense. Yeah all of those 10 and 20 yard passes to Vinny Sutherland where he got a lot of the yards after the catch were amazing. Oh yeah and that year Chris Daniels did the same thing with 120+ catches his last year yet went ignored when he graduated, Vinny barely got a look running a 4.3 on campus being noted for being the fastest receiver in their history. Perhaps had they been born 10 years later it would be a different story, especially for Vinny. Brees did have some amazing plays but id say it was close to the airraid (although those guys kind of copied ideas from Tiller), and he did run close to 1k and 14 tds while he was there.

no, his arm with the Saints was much better than what it was with the Chargers. You can read about it in the very book he put out. Remember he had an injury, when he first came to the Saints camp 10 yard throws were falling in the dirt. What did he do, finish the rehab process and got his arm stronger and refined his technique. Saying that someone can't improve strength in their 20's is ridiculous. Improving technique can be more than just having the right technique like simply changing mechanics, I find it great to work out the core, combined with great technique will improve how hard/far you can throw/velocity etc., which means improving arm strength. Throwing the ball involves more than just the arm and a flick of the wrist. Its common sense man. You can improve it.

I wouldn't say Brees arm strength is weaker, it may appear that way because they have no true deep threat (last year) other one player who is very raw. He can still thread the needle on any route in between defenders with plenty of zip.

LOL, he improve his arm strength after rehabbing from injury? Of course he did! What choice did he have? Arm strength is largely NATURAL, either you have a strong are or you don't. The only significant increases you see are with age and maturity. Jamarcus Russell had a rocket arm as an eighth grader. He didn't get it when he got on a college weight program or in the pros.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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Didn't Honey Badgerzzz only do 4 reps of 225? Also Brandon Banks is a real small guy to - like 5'6 150 maybe?
Fred Smoot did two.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Fred Smoot did two.
Yea and he was a finesse corner who did not play physical. He also benefited by playing across from Champ Bailey one of the all time great CBs.
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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Typo, meant to say "can." Regardless of how you want to spin it, that is not improving arm strength, that's improving technique for a better result. The strength stays the same and you will see that when the QB is not in a position on the field where he can use optimal technique.
I just feel like you're missing the point. It's not about getting QBs in a gym together and seeing how much they can curl, it's about how fast and far they can drill the ball, and that can be improved through technique. When you talk about Matthew Stafford having great arm strength, you're talking about how far he can throw it. He has a lot of natural arm strength.He has a lot of natural throwing ability. I can even just think back to high school, a couple kids who weren't the biggest or strongest, but for whatever reason they could really whip a ball out of their hands. The reason we talk about his arm strength is not because he can bench a lot, but because of how far downfield he can throw it. He probably would lose an arm-wrestling match against Tim Tebow, but when we're comparing them as quarterbacks we say that Stafford "has a stronger arm." And what's the knock on Tebow? A lack of technique.
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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Well Mike Vick has said before that his arm strength greatly improved during RS year at VA Tech when he got heavily involved with their strength training program.

You take a guy with solid arm strength and increase his bench by 100# and his leg press by 300# and his arm strength is going to 'naturally' improve.

Saying you can't improve arm strength is like a boxer saying you can't improve punching power.
Yes much of it is God given, but I believe you can increase arm strength 10-25% through overall strength training.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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I am always fascinated by those who are of a freakish size.

Does anyone think there is any chance of an NFL career for Mississippi OT Terrell Brown? For those that don't know, Brown measured in at his pro day at 6'10" 388 lbs with 38" arms.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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I was watching some footage of Jeff Driskel and #20 kept making circus catches. I thought it was a running back, but it turns out its a guy they were calling a tight end - Omarius Hines. He never put up big numbers at Florida, but they used him in a variety of ways, and like I said, he popped off the screen at me. Seemed like he caught everything thrown to him, and looked really quick and athletic. I looked up Florida's roster and found that he's a senior this year, and he put up some pretty solid numbers at Florida's Pro Day:

6'0"
215 lbs
4.50
34.5" vert
18 bench reps
10'2" broad
4.20 short shuttle
6.45 3-cone drill

That three-cone drill is pretty crazy. He looks like he has terrific hands and body control. Maybe route-running held him back from being featured more in the offense? He does look unpolished. He looks like exactly the kind of guy who could end up more productive in the NFL than he was in college. He looks like he could play multiple positions. Has anyone else noticed this guy?



The catch at 3:40 is awesome. He runs hard with the ball, too. I can see a team wanting to throw it to him a few times a game.
Im a big time Gator fan and watched Hines every week. As far as a role in the NFL its gonna be pretty difficult IMO. He didnt excell at any one thing and was a solid college player. If I had to compare him to an NFL player, he most resembles a Julian Edleman type roll but not nearly as good.

He did a little of everything at Florida, but I just cant see him being anything other than a solid special teams guy for a pro team.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Well Mike Vick has said before that his arm strength greatly improved during RS year at VA Tech when he got heavily involved with their strength training program.

You take a guy with solid arm strength and increase his bench by 100# and his leg press by 300# and his arm strength is going to 'naturally' improve.

Saying you can't improve arm strength is like a boxer saying you can't improve punching power.
Yes much of it is God given, but I believe you can increase arm strength 10-25% through overall strength training.
Explain to me why Brady Quinn, a **** diesel mofo who did twenty something bench reps can't throw nearly as hard as a pencil necked geek like Allen Iverson. Iverson threw a football 74 yards at 174 pounds. It cannot all be explained away with techinque. Arm strength is simply not determined by one's weight room strength. You may be able to increase it minimally, but that's it. It's kind of like how some cats can dunk effortlessly, but don't have great eight room leg strength.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Hines was also held back by terrible quarterback play for the majority of his playing time. comparison-wise I want to say a bigger Danny Woodhead type. is there a guy that fits that profile? closest thing I could find size-wise is Joique Bell

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Old 03-31-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
Explain to me why Brady Quinn, a **** diesel mofo who did twenty something bench reps can't throw nearly as hard as a pencil necked geek like Allen Iverson. Iverson threw a football 74 yards at 174 pounds. It cannot all be explained away with techinque. Arm strength is simply not determined by one's weight room strength. You may be able to increase it minimally, but that's it. It's kind of like how some cats can dunk effortlessly, but don't have great eight room leg strength.
I don't think Brady Quinn's problem is arm strength. It's his reluctance to throw the ball further than 15 yards downfield because he isn't accurate.
All I'm saying is guys can improve their arm strength through strength training.

Maybe not radically, but you can achieve significant improvements in how hard you can throw a football.
(BTW AI was never 174# in HS. I don't think he's ever been 174# as an athlete at any point in his life. He played football at Bethel between 150-160#.)
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Old 03-31-2013, 01:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by sbh15 View Post
Hines was also held back by terrible quarterback play for the majority of his playing time. comparison-wise I want to say a bigger Danny Woodhead type. is there a guy that fits that profile? closest thing I could find size-wise is Joique Bell
I'm really thinking more along the lines of Delanie Walker, but smaller and more athletic. I think teams will try to use him as a blocker and as a receiver, in a hybrid fullback/H-Back/slot role. Maybe what Dorin Dickerson was supposed to be.
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:01 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
Explain to me why Brady Quinn, a **** diesel mofo who did twenty something bench reps can't throw nearly as hard as a pencil necked geek like Allen Iverson. Iverson threw a football 74 yards at 174 pounds. It cannot all be explained away with techinque. Arm strength is simply not determined by one's weight room strength. You may be able to increase it minimally, but that's it. It's kind of like how some cats can dunk effortlessly, but don't have great eight room leg strength.
Arm strength is in the rotator cuff, not the muscles you can see.
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:14 AM    (permalink
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Arm strength is in the rotator cuff, not the muscles you can see.
All throws happen first at your base; the hips and legs. Biomechanically it's very similar to throwing the javelin.

THrowing the ball hard can be improved through becoming stronger as an athlete.

How quickly you're able to go through your throwing motion and get rid of the football at a high velocity, that's IMO more genetic.
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I don't think Brady Quinn's problem is arm strength. It's his reluctance to throw the ball further than 15 yards downfield because he isn't accurate.
All I'm saying is guys can improve their arm strength through strength training.

Maybe not radically, but you can achieve significant improvements in how hard you can throw a football.
(BTW AI was never 174# in HS. I don't think he's ever been 174# as an athlete at any point in his life. He played football at Bethel between 150-160#.)
When he threw the ball that distance, he was an adult messing around in the Eagles camp. He was 168 when he entered the NBA. It's conceivable he gained 6 pounds along the way. But the point is he is still much frailer than 99% of all football players, yet he could outgun most of them.

As far as you comment about Quinn's "problem", I am talking about his lack of arm strength alone. He does not have a strong arm and the few times when he hums it, you can see him putting forth great effort to do so. Not so with Michael Vick who flicks effortlessly the ball any distance he wants to.

Can you increase arm strength with weight training MINIMALLY at best. Either you have a strong arm or you don't. You don't jump from having an average or weak arm to having a strong arm. Mark Bulger didn't throw harder than Chad Pennington because of his superior technique and he obviously wasn't bigger or stronger overall. He just had a strong arm, period. Spud Webb could dunk at 5'7" and it wasn't because of superior weight training with his legs.
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