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Old 04-03-2013, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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Mike Mayock on Nolan Nawrocki:

"I know Nolan Nawrocki very, very well," Mayock said on ESPN's "Mike & Mike in the Morning" on Wednesday. "The guy has an unbelievable group of sources throughout the NFL. He works it tirelessly. I've been on the phone with the guy at midnight, 2 a.m., talking draft. The guy is crazy as far as his passion and love for the game."

"When he puts that out there, there's no agenda. He's not trying to bash Cam Newton or Geno Smith. This is the feedback he's getting from scouts and what he believes based on his tape study. Does that mean it's right or wrong? No. We have to minimize that a little bit because scouts can say a lot of things to get their opinions out there for their own vested reasons."

"I would bang the table for Nolan Nawrocki," Mayock said. "I couldn't take Geno Smith in the top 10, probably the top 20. I can't stand this whole quarterback class."
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:16 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Let's be honest though, some people try to find racism in everything. I agree with Black Bolt that some people can be too quick to dismiss racism, but it works the other way too. I don't know if Nawrocki is racist or not, but I need more evidence than two harshly-worded scouting reports before I start accusing him.
But that's just it- NO ONE CALLED HIM A RACIST! We ALL have prejudices, some more than others and some of more aware of them than others. One thing the majority needs to stop doing is being so damn overally sensitive. To say his comments had racial overtones is not to say the guy pokes out eye hole in pillow cases.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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What am I missing?
LOL, did you catch the part about Aaron Brooks and Akili Smith? That fly with everything else you have heard of Smith? And wasn't Brooks a 4th rounder to begin with?
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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This is the disconnect. I see no subtext. I just see text. I don't think this is racially slanted at all. You do.

To me there are no "racial undertones" or "subconcious racism due to stereotypes." That's ******* racism.

I see no racism here. Just a hard-hitting scouting report. Just like the one he gave to Bray and apparently Clausen. Unlike the ones he gave to Wilson and RGIII.
Why is he comparing him to Smith and Brooks? What's the common thread?
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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I agree with that but it is more often then not a white player being labeled a hard working, high-motor, blue-collar over achiever or any white WR being compared to Wes Welker. It seems to only be a big deal when an assessment comes up about a black QB.
Okay, did you just justify stereotyping? And the reason there is more of a reaction to the QB position is a) criticism goes a longer way when it comes to QB at the top of the draft who have more to lose than a mid round slot receiver and b) there is clear patterned history of injustice and flat out racism when it comes to blacks playing the QB position. It's much, much better, but the history exists. Charlie Ward was told he would not be drafted and so chose basketball. McKnabb was a WR convert to be immedately after the college season before changing minds. Colin Kaepernick's elite physical skills combined with incredible production weren't enough to land him in the first round, but Ponder and Locker were top 12. And I can't even talk about what happended to Warren Moon without getting heated. This in no way quantifies the guys who were not given a chance at the position in the pros or in college.

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Old 04-03-2013, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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Anytime your scouting report is making huge waves in the media on black QB's 2 years in a row there is an underlying issue here. Do you guys really think that he was incapable of making a negative scouting report without absolutely trashing him and making news?


Then majority of what he said has been refuted by numerous people already. Or is Bruce Feldman just an over sensitive hater too:

Quote:
CBS Sports' Bruce Feldman tweeted that the "work ethic knock" on West Virginia QB Geno Smith is "total BS.

""He spent more hours in WVU (football building) after midnight than the custodial crew," Feldman added. This comes a day after Geno's work habits and leadership abilities were severely questioned by Pro Football Weekly's Nolan Nawrocki. We've only read positive things about Geno's off-field study habits. Apr 2 - 10:00 AMSource: Bruce Feldman on Twitter

His scouting report had maybe 4 lines of positives mentioning big arm and fast, that's it. And there is a short stories worth of negatives blasting him the rest of the "scouting report". Then he list him as a top 50 player. How so? If you truly believe what you wrote and your sources he's not even a first 4 rounds type of guy.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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"I would bang the table for Nolan Nawrocki," Mayock said. "I couldn't take Geno Smith in the top 10, probably the top 20. I can't stand this whole quarterback class."
Mayock would also bang the table for Blaine Gabbert, so we know that when he says that it means business.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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Anytime your scouting report is making huge waves in the media on black QB's 2 years in a row there is an underlying issue here. Do you guys really think that he was incapable of making a negative scouting report without absolutely trashing him and making news?

Then majority of what he said has been refuted by numerous people already. Or is Bruce Feldman just an over sensitive hater too:




His scouting report had maybe 4 lines of positives mentioning big arm and fast, that's it. And there is a short stories worth of negatives blasting him the rest of the "scouting report". Then he list him as a top 50 player. How so? If you truly believe what you wrote and your sources he's not even a first 4 rounds type of guy.
Thank you, sir. Again, not only is the report in contrast to other reports, you have to wonder why this clown would chose to focus on Smith and Cam who were each black QBs at the top of their respective QB draft classes. I'll say it again, does no one question the 4th quarter rise of Chistian Ponder? Were is the article tearing him down? And how about Jake Locker who somehow got the benefit of every doubt ever? Even if you accept that these are the criticism he sees, I have to ask one question: WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS IN REPORTING?? Please, some one who complained that calling racism bothers you, answer the preceding question. Add is Matt Leinart as well. No real negative reporting about about a guy who can't freaking make NFL throws and who'd rather play big man on campus than be assured of being the #2 pick in the draft as a junior? But Cam has a fake smile.....

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Old 04-03-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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One of the first things Mayock stated when he was interviewed on Mike & Mike this morning was that Nawrocki was a 'friend' of his. Mayock also never confirmed he agreed with Nawrocki's opinion about Geno's work ethic.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Roddoliver View Post
Mike Mayock on Nolan Nawrocki:

"I know Nolan Nawrocki very, very well," Mayock said on ESPN's "Mike & Mike in the Morning" on Wednesday. "The guy has an unbelievable group of sources throughout the NFL. He works it tirelessly. I've been on the phone with the guy at midnight, 2 a.m., talking draft. The guy is crazy as far as his passion and love for the game."

"When he puts that out there, there's no agenda. He's not trying to bash Cam Newton or Geno Smith. This is the feedback he's getting from scouts and what he believes based on his tape study. Does that mean it's right or wrong? No. We have to minimize that a little bit because scouts can say a lot of things to get their opinions out there for their own vested reasons."

"I would bang the table for Nolan Nawrocki," Mayock said. "I couldn't take Geno Smith in the top 10, probably the top 20. I can't stand this whole quarterback class."
Mayock of full of the brown stuff. So what, Mayock doesn't talk to scouts? How about his flip flop on E.J. Manuel, everyone okay with that? Oh, and don't forget the lie that he claimed he said Geno Smith has always been a top 10 talent.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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One of the first things Mayock stated when he was interviewed on Mike & Mike this morning was that Nawrocki was a 'friend' of his. Mayock also never confirmed he agreed with Nawrocki's opinion about Geno's work ethic.
Yeah, but the fence sitter didn't exactly dispute what he said either. How can a man with such strong opinions all of a sudden clam up when one of his cohorts comes out with contrasting information?
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Okay, did you just justify stereotyping? And the reason there is more of a reaction to the QB position is a) criticism goes a longer way when it comes to QB at the top of the draft who have more to lose than a mid round slot receiver and b) there is clear patterned history of injustice and flat out racism when it comes to blacks playing the QB position. It's much, much better, but the history exists. Charlie Ward was told he would not be drafted and so chose basketball. McKnabb was a WR convert to be immedately after the college season before changing minds. Colin Kaepernick's elite physical skills combined with incredible production weren't enough to land him in the first round, but Ponder and Locker were top 12. And I can't even talk about what happended to Warren Moon without getting heated. This in no way quantifies the guys who were not given a chance at the position in the pros or in college.
No I didn't justify stereotyping. Just merely pointing out that the only time it seems anyone cries racism or racial bias is when it comes to black QBs. It's much more all encompassing than that but the only time the media makes it a big deal and people get their panties in a bunch for black QBs.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Between Kwame Harris in the NFL section and Geno Smith here, some quality discussions are taking place.

Let's get back to talking about Geno Smith as a player rather than some attention getter's attempt (and success) at getting people like us talking about what he perceives of a certain player.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Anyone else think Nolan Nawrocki has a connection with Tom Condon? First he trashes Cam Newton (second QB in the draft was Blaine Gabbert, who is represented by Condon.)

Fast forward a couple years, and he's trashing the guy rated ahead of Matt Barkley (represented by Tom Condon.) Cam had legit issue's, but I'm calling BS. I've never heard this stuff about Geno before.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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No I didn't justify stereotyping. Just merely pointing out that the only time it seems anyone cries racism or racial bias is when it comes to black QBs. It's much more all encompassing than that but the only time the media makes it a big deal and people get their panties in a bunch for black QBs.
Panties in a bunch...I see. So it's no big deal to you because they don't do the same for while slot receivers. You are equating the bias evaluation of black QBs, the most important position on the field, with the "bias" evaluation white slot receivers, a position that is only important in a handful of offenses, and you don't understand why there is a dispartity? If you are truly being honest, then I pity you for a number of reasons.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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The thing I don't like about his assessment is that he makes statements that I don't know how anyone could make them without being a teammate or coach of Geno Smith. I mean "mild practice demeanor", "no urgency", "Not committed or focused — marginal work ethic". How can you make that statement unless you were at the majority of Geno's practices and workouts during his time at WVU. Unless he has multiple people in the WVU Football staff tell him those things I don't know how you can say those things. And based on what Holgorsen and Spavital have said I doubt he did have multiple people at WVU who told him that. It just looks bad when you say someone you have never met and don't know is "not a student of the game", and then his QB coach and head coach immediately jump to his defense and say he is a student of the game. People will say Spavital had to say those things. He didn't necessarily because he isn't at WVU anymore and I think it says something that Spavital was proactive in making sure his voice was heard and that his opinion on Geno was heard. How could you say he will "drain energy from a QB room" when you've never been in a QB room with him? His QB's coach has already disputed what you said as wrong and unlike Nawrocki he's been in a meeting room with Smith hundreds of times.

Another comment he makes, "Really struggled handling the snow in Pinstripe Bowl (took two safeties) and will be troubled by the elements". Really? You're determining if weather effects him based on one game? Why not do some research. 2011 Marshall game, he played fine when there was rain in some of the second half. At Rutgers 2011, snowed throughout the game and Geno throws for 218 yards and two touchdowns, he rushed for a touchdown as well, and rallied his team to come from behind and win.

"does not command respect from teammates and cannot inspire". Once again, how can he say this when he has never been a teammate of Geno Smith's. In order to print something like that you should have multiple teammates of his tell you this, which I question whether he has. His sources from what I know are mostly in NFL scouting circles. Can you really talk about what type of teammate he is unless you have talked to his teammates or were his teammate? He was named a team captain as a junior. I think that says something about his leadership skills and the respect he has from his peers.

My final thought, according to Mike Mayock Nawrocki "has an unbelievable group of sources throughout the NFL". I believe him if he says Geno struggled on the white board during interviews. When your sources are in the NFL I don't get how you can write the things he writes about Geno Smith's four year college career.

Just to dispute some of what Nawrocki stated here are some quotes in a piece from September, before the scouting report, about him by his QB coach Jake Spavital

"Most people's heads will be spinning the first year in the offense, but now he sees everything, he knows the calls, he knows what Dana's thinking and we're not throwing any curve balls at him like we did last year at times,"

"Nothing fazes the kid, He never gets too high, never gets too low. He just loves playing the game."

Shows me that Spavital clearly thought highly of him while he was at West Virginia and has always felt this way.

I feel that this qoute by Tavon Austin disputes Nawrocki's claim that "does not command respect from teammates and cannot inspire"

"When Geno's eating like that, we're definitely eating too". He's referring to a game where Geno had 411 yards passin and 5 touchdowns.

And then there's this article about half way down the page at WalterFootball.com from one of his former teammates Keith Tandy.

"I've seen the way he works and that is another plus for him. He really buys into the system and watches a lot of film to try and find a way to perfect his game."

"Walterfootball.com asked Tandy if Smith was a good student of the game and a dedicated student in the film room. 'Oh yeah, at practice we were always trying to disguise things, but he would always pick it up,' said Tandy. 'He was always watching extra film to figure out a tip from here or a tip from there. That is one thing he is really good about is preparing for games so nothing surprises him.'"

It's hard for me to believe Nowracki when there are multiple people at West Virginia, his teammates and his coaches, saying the exact opposite of what he is claiming about Smith while Smith was a student there.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Anyone else think Nolan Nawrocki has a connection with Tom Condon? First he trashes Cam Newton (second QB in the draft was Blaine Gabbert, who is represented by Condon.)

Fast forward a couple years, and he's trashing the guy rated ahead of Matt Barkley (represented by Tom Condon.) Cam had legit issue's, but I'm calling BS. I've never heard this stuff about Geno before.
Cam did have legit areas of concern, but Cam also had elite physical skills as well as production, arguably the best of all time coming out of college. Who knows, maybe the no agenda nobody is actually one of Tom Condon's pool boys.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:52 PM    (permalink
Raiderz4Life
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I miss the days when not everything was categorized as racist or hater.
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that's because we're the only animal capable of getting it from other animals. the day a goat can milk cows, it will.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:10 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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I miss the days when not everything was categorized as racist or hater.
You mean when racism was the accepted norm?
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Panties in a bunch...I see. So it's no big deal to you because they don't do the same for while slot receivers. You are equating the bias evaluation of black QBs, the most important position on the field, with the "bias" evaluation white slot receivers, a position that is only important in a handful of offenses, and you don't understand why there is a dispartity? If you are truly being honest, then I pity you for a number of reasons.
Whites can play more than "slot" receiver, and receiver is an important part of an offense, and the slot position can be very important, Welker proved that with Brady calling him the heart and soul of the team, 100+ catches (even with Matt Cassel) every single year except for the one he was coming back from knee injuries, close to half of his yards coming after the catch, which is about 4,000. Is that not important? the only players that consistently get more percentage of their yards after the catch are runningbacks. And people act like New England made him, first it was Moss, then it was Brady, now its the system, despite the fact that he led Miami in receptions in 2006 despite seeing less than 60 percent of the snaps and 2nd in NFL history for the most all purpose yards first 3 years in the league, right behind Gale Sayers.

Implying that they are only slot receivers (there are guys like Eric Decker and Jordy Nelson, perhaps you have heard of them) and provide little value is stereotypical thinking. What about the runningback spot? you don't think whites get stereotyped there? If they are big, they get asked to move to fullback or linebacker, if they are smaller they get moved to the slot or safety, and this is from high school to college. Ryan Swope could have been a great runningback but he was pigeonholed into the racially appropriate slot position. He has the size and speed/quickness. Only one team wanted Toby Gerhart as a runningback and look at the production he put up, Heisman finalist, closest race in Heisman history. He has done well every time Adrian Peterson has gone down and could start for another team. If he had gone to USC hed be a backup linebacker that no one would have known about, or Ole Miss (offer from them) some mediocre fullback that probably wouldn't have seen the field much. This is a guy that broke the Cali all time rushing record, 3rd in high history EVER, ran a hand timed 4.48 (which seems to match up with his electronic 4.55).

There also seems to be a bias against white qbs that can run, including you. Guys like Eric Crouch and Scott Frost had to change positions, same with Matt Jones. Ponder, Tannehill, Locker all ran read option plays in college and have the athleticism to run. Guys like Blaine Gabbert and Luck could run as well but didn't in college except for a few scrambles. Why no read option plays for these guys? I am sure it would have eased the transition into the NFL for them, and they could have used it, except for Luck. Russel Wilson didn't run them in college, yet he is in the pros. And ironically Alex Smith was benched for Colin Kaepernick, who had come in the games periodically before that to run read option plays, when Alex Smith was probably one of the first qbs to run the read option in college under Urban Meyer, however he isn't as athletic as the other guys I mentioned and up there in age so I doubt he could do that great with it now.

This guy ripped Jimmy Clausen, who at one time was considered a top pick, who knows what he has said about other prospects, its just the ones on Cam (which some of it was true) and Smith are more publicized and talked about. Maybe his analysis was made up and he was grasping at straws, but its been known that Smith isn't a top tier qb prospect if you stack him up with other classes like last year. All of these qb needy teams are making moves in free agency for qb, so they must know something that we don't. Even if a team does wind up picking him even though they grabbed a qb recently, it still means they don't have a lot of faith in him. People are saying he is going to need to sit for a couple of years, and I believe that should be the case with most qbs, but recently qbs taking in the first are starting right away. Most people don't elaborate on his flaws except that he doesn't have the "wow" factor. Well this guy tried to find an explanation for it. Should he be criticized for making stuff up? yes, but even though Dana Holgerson came to Geno Smith's defense, there are other guys that coach for WVU and that were around Smith, so maybe they know something others don't, so who knows the accuracy of his statements? maybe he took a few small things and ran with it. I do agree that he should have worded it better, and the whole fake smile thing for Cam was unnecessary for his analysis.

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Old 04-03-2013, 02:51 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Whites can play more than "slot" receiver, and receiver is an important part of an offense, and the slot position can be very important, Welker proved that with Brady calling him the heart and soul of the team, 100+ catches (even with Matt Cassel) every single year except for the one he was coming back from knee injuries, close to half of his yards coming after the catch, which is about 4,000. Is that not important? the only players that consistently get more percentage of their yards after the catch are runningbacks. And people act like New England made him, first it was Moss, then it was Brady, now its the system, despite the fact that he led Miami in receptions in 2006 despite seeing less than 60 percent of the snaps and 2nd in NFL history for the most all purpose yards first 3 years in the league, right behind Gale Sayers.

Implying that they are only slot receivers (there are guys like Eric Decker and Jordy Nelson, perhaps you have heard of them) and provide little value is stereotypical thinking. What about the runningback spot? you don't think whites get stereotyped there? If they are big, they get asked to move to fullback or linebacker, if they are smaller they get moved to the slot or safety, and this is from high school to college. Ryan Swope could have been a great runningback but he was pigeonholed into the racially appropriate slot position. He has the size and speed/quickness. Only one team wanted Toby Gerhart as a runningback and look at the production he put up, Heisman finalist, closest race in Heisman history. He has done well every time Adrian Peterson has gone down and could start for another team. If he had gone to USC hed be a backup linebacker that no one would have known about, or Ole Miss (offer from them) some mediocre fullback that probably wouldn't have seen the field much. This is a guy that broke the Cali all time rushing record, 3rd in high history EVER, ran a hand timed 4.48 (which seems to match up with his electronic 4.55).

There also seems to be a bias against white qbs that can run, including you. Guys like Eric Crouch and Scott Frost had to change positions, same with Matt Jones. Ponder, Tannehill, Locker all ran read option plays in college and have the athleticism to run. Guys like Blaine Gabbert and Luck could run as well but didn't in college except for a few scrambles. Why no read option plays for these guys? I am sure it would have eased the transition into the NFL for them, and they could have used it, except for Luck. Russel Wilson didn't run them in college, yet he is in the pros. And ironically Alex Smith was benched for Colin Kaepernick, who had come in the games periodically before that to run read option plays, when Alex Smith was probably one of the first qbs to run the read option in college under Urban Meyer, however he isn't as athletic as the other guys I mentioned and up there in age so I doubt he could do that great with it now.
I had a feeling you would raise your crazy head. You have a nose for this stuff, fido. Again, cry me a river with your claims of rampant white on white racism. That's not what this thread is about. But a can't resist responding to one of you idiotic points. Frost, Crouch and Jones had no choice but to change positions because they all couldn't throw worth a damn. RG3, Wilson, Cam and Kaepernick could so go file a law suit.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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I miss the days when not everything was categorized as racist or hater.
Seriously. I understand the need for racial sensitivity, but I'm not ready to make the jump to this scouting report being immediately racist.

Batsandgats and black bolt together. It's about to get real racist again.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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I had a feeling you would raise your crazy head. You have a nose for this stuff, fido. Again, cry me a river with your claims of rampant white on white racism. That's not what this thread is about. But a can't resist responding to one of you idiotic points. Frost, Crouch and Jones had no choice but to change positions because they all couldn't throw worth a damn. RG3, Wilson, Cam and Kaepernick could so go file a law suit.
who knows what Crouch and Frost could have done? they barely got to pass the ball because they played in a different era, spread option football wasn't around, who knows what they would have looked like on a modern spread option team? The coaches didn't emphasize passing and they didn't practice much of it. Jones played when they were just coming out with some of the concepts, he got to run the basic zone read and was an electrifying runner, and thats what they used him at the most, they didn't have the passing concepts down that much and the spread passing part wasn't merged in very well, he still looked good his senior year throwing for 2k, although his junior year looked better, slightly under 2k with a better td to int ratio. Colin can throw? yeah, but nobody criticizes his awkward throwing motion because he gets it done.

yeah Im the crazy one..... thanks for only addressing one small part of my post. I am not sure if you are aware, but discrimination can happen regardless of it is the same race. Its all based on stereotypes. I just changed coaching jobs, (decided to follow the other coach I was under) the new head coach who was white came in and said "its all a bunch of white kids, we can't win football games", despite the fact that those "white kids" won district two years ago. Racism is the belief that one group of people believe that a race is superior, whether be it athleticism or intelligence etc. It can be white on white, white on black, it can be black on white, it can black on black etc. There are black people who discriminate against other blacks. Ive seen it a lot where I live. There are blacks who call themselves "creoles" most descended from free people of colour who owned slaves themselves back in the day, and when they first started their schools they would make blacks pass a comb test in order to get in. Some believe the lighter their skin the better they are, some believe that their mixture gives them a benefit over both white and black.

I have been trying my best to stay out of this stuff but when you make a ridiculous claim that slot position isn't that important and imply that whites can only play slot gets under my skin. Football has changed, the slot is more important than it ever was. Whether you want to use a smaller quicker guy there or split out a bigger more physical tight end, teams use the slot as a valuable weapon. Is it as important as qb, no, but still important.

and your beliefs that only blacks can be true ball carriers and run read option and that whites should stick to the pocket just reaffirms the stereotypes that black qb = runner, white qb = pocket passer. There can be black qbs that are pocket passers , like a Warren Moon, and there can be white qbs that can run like Steve Young or Fran Tarkenton

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Old 04-03-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Why is he comparing him to Smith and Brooks? What's the common thread?
Many of the similar negatives described in his scouting report were issues both of these QBs had as well.

Decision-making, locking on to targets, mechanics, footwork.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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I wish we could talk about Geno Smith in the Geno Smith thread...
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