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Old 04-05-2013, 10:03 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post

Tony is like Rivers, Cutler, McNabb and Matt Ryan. These on the fence, wavering confidence type players that aren't sure of themselves and usually fail.
I think you are being a bit tough on Rivers, Cutler and Matt Ryan.
Rivers played for a horrible HC/GM and was reduced to only a few weapons around him, Cutler was one of the most sacked QB's in the league due to a porous OL and Ryan just doesn't have that great arm and will always struggle on deep throws.
Tony's OL is average, he has a decent arm and plenty of weapons around him, but just doesn't have any 'it' factor in important games.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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I cannot see Warmack in a pro ZBS, Cooper would be a much better fit in that scheme.
nate livings, mackenzy bernadeau, montrae holland, and kyle kosier have been our starting guards in the zbs that we've gone to under the jason garrett era. would warmack not be a massive upgrade?

cooper is a better athlete no doubt, but put it in perspective, cooper will be easily one of the 5 best most athletic guards in the nfl, but he's not the prototype of a zb guard he's the maserati of that type lineman your looking for to block in the zbs.

warmack moves well enough for such big and powerful man that he'll be fine in any run blocking scheme, pass protection at the next level would be biggest concern about warmack imo alabama didn't do 7 step drops unless it was playaction

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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nate livings, mackenzy bernadeau, montrae holland, and kyle kosier have been our starting guards in the zbs that we've gone to under the jason garrett era. would warmack not be a massive upgrade?

cooper is a better athlete no doubt, but put it in perspective, cooper will be easily one of the 5 best most athletic guards in the nfl, but he's not the prototype of a zb guard he's the maserati of that type lineman your looking for to block in the zbs.

warmack moves well enough for such big and powerful man that he'll be fine in any run blocking scheme, pass protection at the next level would be biggest concern about warmack imo alabama didn't do 7 step drops unless it was playaction
First, I doubt Warmack ever reaches Dallas, even Cooper isn't a sure thing.
Second, ZBS OLmen are usually smaller, quicker types.
Third, Warmack could play in a ZBS but he will never be a star in that system, his strength is his ability to destroy DLmen in one on one battles and allow RB's to run between the tackles, this isn't what ZBS linemen do, they use finesse a lot more and allow the RB to chose his opening, this requires a lot of initial quickness which isn't Warmack's strength.
I do believe that Warmack will prove to be the better pass protector, he simply overpowers defenders and would set a solid pocket.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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I think you are being a bit tough on Rivers, Cutler and Matt Ryan.
Rivers played for a horrible HC/GM and was reduced to only a few weapons around him, Cutler was one of the most sacked QB's in the league due to a porous OL and Ryan just doesn't have that great arm and will always struggle on deep throws.
Tony's OL is average, he has a decent arm and plenty of weapons around him, but just doesn't have any 'it' factor in important games.
How is Chicago's line porous but ours is average? Romo having great escape ability in the pocket doesn't mean our line is better.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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Seems there is a bunch of confusion about ZBS vs Man schemes.

ZBS you are moving LATERALLY (side to side) as a unit to open a cutback lane for the running back. This is MUCH more about being in the right position AND being light of a feet and having SOME strength to seal defenders out of the cut-back lane.

By comparison in MAN schemes you are moving TOWARDS (forwards) to your assigned defender and DRIVING him out of the play. This is a strength oriented scheme where your goal to a smack the defender in the mouth and beat him with brute force. Being light on your feet is a small positive but this is more about simply mauling the man in front of you.

Think ZBS as Shanny's Denver teams or Houston's rushing attack. While the 90s Cowboys as the shining example of man-oriented schemes.

Now for the prospects.

Cooper is one of the best athletic specimens at guard in terms of foot-speed, balance, and lateral movement. By definition that equals a ZBS guard. He still has the size and strength to play in any scheme but his BEST FIT would be ZBS.

Warmack is mauling INCREDIBLY strong guard and has a clearly evident efficiency for drive blocking. He's an immoveable object and while having the requisite foot-speed to play in any scheme his BEST FIT would be drive (or man) schemes.

You want Cooper to dance and seal.

You want Warmack to drive and maul.



As far as the Romo commentary. Cmon guys. Dallas hasn't had an "AVERAGE" offensive line in years. If you want to compare offensive lines put someone like Drew Bledsoe behind each line and imagine the results.

Dallas would lead the league in sacks allowed if it wasn't for having a mobile QB.

Tony has proven to be a top 5 QB in the regular season during his career but hasn't played to that level in the playoffs. He now has the contract that displays his regular season prominence and he'll need to transition that game to the higher stage.

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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First, I doubt Warmack ever reaches Dallas, even Cooper isn't a sure thing.
Second, ZBS OLmen are usually smaller, quicker types.
Third, Warmack could play in a ZBS but he will never be a star in that system, his strength is his ability to destroy DLmen in one on one battles and allow RB's to run between the tackles, this isn't what ZBS linemen do, they use finesse a lot more and allow the RB to chose his opening, this requires a lot of initial quickness which isn't Warmack's strength.
I do believe that Warmack will prove to be the better pass protector, he simply overpowers defenders and would set a solid pocket.

Just wanted to be sure we were on the same page, you know Bama runs a spread zone blocking scheme right? They don't run a power based offense. Every running play they did was a zone read play.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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Maybe I'm the only one who's excited Andre Smith, Eric Winston and Tyson Clabo are still free agents. Seems the smart money is that we could land ONE of them for a moderate 1 or 2 year deal as they are free agents. Then you draft, and if you pick a developmental guy, release Free and use Parnell as your swing guy.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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I think you are being a bit tough on Rivers, Cutler and Matt Ryan.
Rivers played for a horrible HC/GM and was reduced to only a few weapons around him, Cutler was one of the most sacked QB's in the league due to a porous OL and Ryan just doesn't have that great arm and will always struggle on deep throws.
Tony's OL is average, he has a decent arm and plenty of weapons around him, but just doesn't have any 'it' factor in important games.
Tony has PLENTY of "it" factor. He's pulled plenty of games out of his butt.

It's just that that X factor has an equally polarizing Y factor. lol
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Maybe I'm the only one who's excited Andre Smith, Eric Winston and Tyson Clabo are still free agents. Seems the smart money is that we could land ONE of them for a moderate 1 or 2 year deal as they are free agents. Then you draft, and if you pick a developmental guy, release Free and use Parnell as your swing guy.
Funny thing is.... we all can see it clearly, so why can't the Cowboys?

I can understand why Smith isn't an option though. ZBSzzzzzzz!
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Tony has PLENTY of "it" factor. He's pulled plenty of games out of his butt.

It's just that that X factor has an equally polarizing Y factor. lol
True story. He'll always be compared to Favre with his gunslinger mentality and volume of knuckleheaded players - but if Romo were surrounded with the talent of the '96 Packers, Romo would have won a Superbowl by now.

I personally haven't felt the Cowboys have fielded a top team since the ramifications of the salary cap era started kicking in ('95-'96-'97), and you can get some really great insight from Bryan Broaddus about how the franchise completely lacked direction once the stars started falling. I think people forget how many Dallas players' who's careers ended early from those superbowl runs - Aikman, Irvin, Novacek, Moose, Tony Tolbert, Mark Tuinei(sp), Erik Williams. The incorrect actions were taken in order to replace those players and free agents were overpaid for and here we set today almost 2 decades later still reeling from horrible front office moves WAY back then.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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True story. He'll always be compared to Favre with his gunslinger mentality and volume of knuckleheaded players - but if Romo were surrounded with the talent of the '96 Packers, Romo would have won a Superbowl by now.

I personally haven't felt the Cowboys have fielded a top team since the ramifications of the salary cap era started kicking in ('95-'96-'97), and you can get some really great insight from Bryan Broaddus about how the franchise completely lacked direction once the stars started falling. I think people forget how many Dallas players' who's careers ended early from those superbowl runs - Aikman, Irvin, Novacek, Moose, Tony Tolbert, Mark Tuinei(sp), Erik Williams. The incorrect actions were taken in order to replace those players and free agents were overpaid for and here we set today almost 2 decades later still reeling from horrible front office moves WAY back then.
That's cause Jerry can't buy his way to success anymore. But we did come close in 2008 when we had 13 Pro Bowlers and a Week 1 bye in the playoffs. I'd say that we fielded a top team then. They just had no clue.

Oh we got a Week 1 bye in the playoffs? Party time in Cacuun baby!!!! Wooohooo!
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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That's cause Jerry can't buy his way to success anymore. But we did come close in 2008 when we had 13 Pro Bowlers and a Week 1 bye in the playoffs. I'd say that we fielded a top team then. They just had no clue.

Oh we got a Week 1 bye in the playoffs? Party time in Cacuun baby!!!! Wooohooo!








Wouldnt you have went? ;)
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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How is Chicago's line porous but ours is average? Romo having great escape ability in the pocket doesn't mean our line is better.
An OL always starts with the LT, without one you OL is weak in pass protection.
Until this past FA period, Chicago didn't have a decent LT, Dallas did, so I would say their OL was weaker than Dallas'. Any team with a decent LT is at least average. Fortunately for Chicago, they went out in FA this year and signed Bushrod and their OL now stands a good chance of being above average.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Funny thing is.... we all can see it clearly, so why can't the Cowboys?

I can understand why Smith isn't an option though. ZBSzzzzzzz!
I'm guessing that the Cowboys simply don't have the money to get anyone of them, they still have to sign their rookies and they probably need an emergency fund should injuries take their toll and more players are needed later in the season. Their agents are also likely looking for a big pay day and will holdout as long as possible to see if they can get it.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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I'm guessing that the Cowboys simply don't have the money to get anyone of them, they still have to sign their rookies and they probably need an emergency fund should injuries take their toll and more players are needed later in the season. Their agents are also likely looking for a big pay day and will holdout as long as possible to see if they can get it.
My issue with that is if that's the case then why didn't they restructure Romo's contract in a manner in which they WOULD be able to afford adding a player in that price range.

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Old 04-05-2013, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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I'm guessing that the Cowboys simply don't have the money to get anyone of them, they still have to sign their rookies and they probably need an emergency fund should injuries take their toll and more players are needed later in the season. Their agents are also likely looking for a big pay day and will holdout as long as possible to see if they can get it.
Probably hit the nail on the head, but the longer they wait the less likely they will see a significant pay unless an injury should occur. Just not a lot of value in right tackles right now.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Pocketaces ... you are the BEST Romopologist in the world. :)

Wow, Tony... you had Jessica in her prime! *applause*
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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My issue with that is if that's the case then why didn't they restructure Romo's contract in a manner in which they WOULD be able to afford adding a player in that price range.

Last I saw indicated Dallas had 4 million under the cap or something like that, and the draft picks will be signed from Marcus Spears' June 1st cut date... so money shouldn't be the issue, but rather do they want to spend if it they could draft one and then be able to save that money and roll it over to next season?

I can't believe one of the three remaining right tackles don't end up in Dallas, but it will likely be later as opposed to sooner.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Pocketaces ... you are the BEST Romopologist in the world. :)

Wow, Tony... you had Jessica in her prime! *applause*
Hey, Somebodys gotta do it ;)
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The greastest team of all time...The OKLAHOMA SOONERS!!! http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3849468
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Hey, Somebodys gotta do it ;)
Best part of this place is the balance we have among the group.

In the end, we all want him to do well.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:37 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Originally Posted by Rev Bolyard View Post
Last I saw indicated Dallas had 4 million under the cap or something like that, and the draft picks will be signed from Marcus Spears' June 1st cut date... so money shouldn't be the issue, but rather do they want to spend if it they could draft one and then be able to save that money and roll it over to next season?

I can't believe one of the three remaining right tackles don't end up in Dallas, but it will likely be later as opposed to sooner.
We have to be able to afford the draft picks BEFORE the draft begins otherwise we are not able to pick.

If that's all we have, then what a shame.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
Rev Bolyard
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We have to be able to afford the draft picks BEFORE the draft begins otherwise we are not able to pick.

If that's all we have, then what a shame.
I'd say that's you're answer then. After the draft, a free agent may be brought in at a vet minimum type thing, and the picks may not be able to be signed until after the June 1st. This is all Greek to me, but that shame is the NFL's horrible ruling on applying a cap hit for the Miles contract signed in the uncapped year. I would have rather lost a 6th round draft pick or something.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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The belief we all share around here is "Let's fix everything around Tony, so he can lead us to wins."
man this is such bs. we're all sick of getting our hopes up and having them crushed, but this here is just nonsense.

making excuses for romo gets old, and i've finally come around and accepted that he is responsible for some epic failures, but i'll still defend him when necessary.

playing the "fix everything around him" card is so lazy, and while i know you've built your case several times with facts and examples and i respect that, this new passive aggressive canned response is annoying as hell.

when you look at this team in the tony era the narrative is his choke jobs and shortcomings and rightfully so, but the sub-plot is full of malcontents, underachievers, poor coaching, meddlesome GM, HORRID line play, HORRID safety play, injury prone, misused, running backs, poor drafting, and very inconsistent wr play. total chaos.

2008 was a looooooong time ago, since then TO imploded and created more media circuses than circus catches, Tony has been nearly murdered on the field more than once. Barber was run into the ground and shipped out, felix became mr glass and completely regressed, miles can't stay healthy to save his life, the slot has been a revolving door of inconsistency, the line has gotten progressively worse, the secondary (barring last year) progressively worse, coaching went from spineless yes man, to headstrong unearned confidence, and across the board failures in crucial times.

tony should get the scrutiny, he's america's teams qb. he's been here long enough, the sample size is big enough to form an opinion, and the results aren't good. i have no problem with people bashing him, calling him a choke artist or whatever the case... it's been earned. but he deserves much more credit than to say that you have to fix everything around him for him to be successful.

we're just asking for competency and solid play from the positions that matter for more than fleeting moments, and with any luck, at the same damn time. or for that matter just give me two elements that click at the same time

how about the rushing game and the passing game both being dangerous at the same time. no? ok, well the rushing attack, and protection. no? passing attack, and protection? passing attack and the defense? defense and protection?

JUST GIVE HIM/US SOMETHING working at the same time without a catastrophe somewhere else. i believe tony can get it done. i don't think he can lead a hobbled team and be the sole driving force to make a historical run, but with a little luck, and consistency he's more than capable of doing it in my opinion.

**** it took eli to have a historically great pass rush, and a miracle catch to finally take it to the next level...

unfortunately for us, romo went the opposite direction, had some epic meltdowns/chokes and instead of getting that winner swagger, he's had the loser stench following him like the cloud around pigpen and it's finally weighed heavily enough that he's bought into it or at the very least is conscious of it and that's too bad. hopefully he gets an opportunity to rid himself of it and validate our (my) feverish support when it's all said and done
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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man this is such bs. we're all sick of getting our hopes up and having them crushed, but this here is just nonsense.

making excuses for romo gets old, and i've finally come around and accepted that he is responsible for some epic failures, but i'll still defend him when necessary.

playing the "fix everything around him" card is so lazy, and while i know you've built your case several times with facts and examples and i respect that, this new passive aggressive canned response is annoying as hell.

when you look at this team in the tony era the narrative is his choke jobs and shortcomings and rightfully so, but the sub-plot is full of malcontents, underachievers, poor coaching, meddlesome GM, HORRID line play, HORRID safety play, injury prone, misused, running backs, poor drafting, and very inconsistent wr play. total chaos.

2008 was a looooooong time ago, since then TO imploded and created more media circuses than circus catches, Tony has been nearly murdered on the field more than once. Barber was run into the ground and shipped out, felix became mr glass and completely regressed, miles can't stay healthy to save his life, the slot has been a revolving door of inconsistency, the line has gotten progressively worse, the secondary (barring last year) progressively worse, coaching went from spineless yes man, to headstrong unearned confidence, and across the board failures in crucial times.

tony should get the scrutiny, he's america's teams qb. he's been here long enough, the sample size is big enough to form an opinion, and the results aren't good. i have no problem with people bashing him, calling him a choke artist or whatever the case... it's been earned. but he deserves much more credit than to say that you have to fix everything around him for him to be successful.

we're just asking for competency and solid play from the positions that matter for more than fleeting moments, and with any luck, at the same damn time. or for that matter just give me two elements that click at the same time

how about the rushing game and the passing game both being dangerous at the same time. no? ok, well the rushing attack, and protection. no? passing attack, and protection? passing attack and the defense? defense and protection?

JUST GIVE HIM/US SOMETHING working at the same time without a catastrophe somewhere else. i believe tony can get it done. i don't think he can lead a hobbled team and be the sole driving force to make a historical run, but with a little luck, and consistency he's more than capable of doing it in my opinion.

**** it took eli to have a historically great pass rush, and a miracle catch to finally take it to the next level...

unfortunately for us, romo went the opposite direction, had some epic meltdowns/chokes and instead of getting that winner swagger, he's had the loser stench following him like the cloud around pigpen and it's finally weighed heavily enough that he's bought into it or at the very least is conscious of it and that's too bad. hopefully he gets an opportunity to rid himself of it and validate our (my) feverish support when it's all said and done
Nicely put together post!

But aren't you saying the same thing? I totally agree with you that with some fixing up around Romo and some luck that the Cowboys can have a legit chance.

I think maybe the only difference between what you're saying and what I said was my statement was lazy and yours involved a lot of typing. But PASSION! I LOVE IT!
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:25 AM    (permalink
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if you're saying "some" fixing up then i agree, and yes we're on the same page. but you said (and have said repeatedly) that in order for romo to be successful we need to fix EVERYTHING. and that i don't agree with.

there have been alot of areas to address over the past few years, and the team either addresses them too slowly for the impact to matter (see tyron)

or too kneejerk to make good decisions (see roy williams)

the drafting of claiborne and signing of carr is one of the few times that a need was addressed responsibly and with sound logic, but of course that was on the heels of over paying scandrick and followed up with firing the dc lol.

the doug free debacle is obviously well documented, as well as the mishandling of canty and bowen, and of course the predicament we're in now with spencer.

just seems like the team has singular focus on one area at a time thinking that it can fix that and we're super bowl bound, and then routinely botches that! and when it does get it right or at least not whiff horribly, it's usually too little too late and it's either not enough to make the difference we hoped, or some other gaping hole has been created or exposed in the process.

i just want SOME consistency, and hopefully from multiple areas. not asking for elite level talent across the board, just a decent balance where one unit isn't pulling all the weight while another offsets any benefits, or even worse, all sucking simultaneously.

i don't think we've seen that since 2008, and the few times things have gelled for the most part, we've seen tony get his fingers broken, collarbone broken, ribs broken, lung punctured etc etc.

hell i'm not even saying he would be successful if you fixed everything, he could mess that up too, but what i do think is that he can be the guy to get it done without 'fixing everything'. you have to responsibly fix some things though.
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