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Old 04-05-2013, 12:02 AM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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I think that even though the CBA has reduced some of the risk at the top of the draft, the contracts still carry enough of a risk that you shouldn't throw caution to the wind and reach for a QB because you're desperate. Keep in mind, the contracts for top draft picks are fully guaranteed. So while on the surface these veterans look expensive on the surface, they can be released and the team would only be on the hook for a fraction of what they'd owe a top 10 rookie bust for the duration of his contract.

The best way to keep your job is to keep the owner happy; the owner generally isn't happy when you waste his money. I don't agree with a lot of these retread signings, but I understand them to a degree for teams that don't like to spend a lot. The real bargain is when you find a franchise gem like Wilson or Kaepernick in the later rounds, and you have them on dirt cheap deals for at least a couple of years l.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
In all 3 of their situations, they would get a pass on drafting a QB this year. The riskier career move this year would be to NOT draft a QB. Especially if Any of the top 3-5 guys turn out to be good and the guys they traded for continue to be the guys they traded for.

If Geno Smith is any good and/or Alex Smith isn't Drew Brees/Rich Gannon, Dorsey and Reid should be fired. Bottom ******* line.

To clarify: Geno Smith (& Barkley & Nassib) better suck and Alex Smith better be Drew Brees/Rich Gannon. Even if Alex is that good, if Geno is good the Chiefs ****** up. Even if Geno sucks, if Alex doesn't take that huge step, the Chiefs ****** up.
BBD,

Based on your logic - don't take retread QBs because there's just no point and you'd rather have cap space than take a chance on one- you would have been against the acquisitions of Brees, Gannon, and Matt Hasselbeck.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
It's very likely that the decision-makers on the Raiders, Cardinals, and Chiefs don't believe in any of the quarterbacks in the draft enough to risk their jobs over. It's easy to say that these teams should draft a guy like Geno Smith when your job isn't on the line. If you draft a quarterback #1 (or even in the top 10) and he fails, you aren't going to get the opportunity to draft another.
Losing games is detrimental to your job security. Period. No matter how you approach it. Getting a retread qb and not having any success with it will cost you your job too.

Developing a qb gives you a better chance of winning for the long term than remaining status quo with a retread qb. That doesn't solve anything, the cycle of losing continues, and you lose your job anyway.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:00 AM    (permalink
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BBD,

Based on your logic - don't take retread QBs because there's just no point and you'd rather have cap space than take a chance on one- you would have been against the acquisitions of Brees, Gannon, and Matt Hasselbeck.
3 qbs in the past 13 years. You named me 3 qbs in the past 13 years.

You know how many 1st round successful qbs I can name in that same span?
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Yes, owners typically move massively profitable teams back and forth between cities. Especially when those cities are so supportive that they don't really want the team enough to get a stadium that doesn't rank among the country's worst. I'm not sure I'd brag about owning 3 people out of San Diego's population fanbase, either.

But yes, I'm extremely jealous of your team's success for the last decade, or something. I'm so pissed my team has had to make the playoffs, and stuff. I'm really bitter that it's won a super bowl in my lifetime. Keep focusing on the avatar though, the attacks really help the rest of whatever you're trying to say.
Hey cat boy, have you even watched one of our San Diego road games? Try not to be clueless while talking smack. The Raiders have a GREAT fan base and pretty much no one questions that, so why would you? Looks like you are an outlier in more than one category.

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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I actually had Charger season tickets for 2 years and the Raider fanbase there wasn't really anything to brag about considering that they have a "huge" fanbase only a 2 hour drive away. There were just as many Patriots, Colts, and Broncos fans at the game when those teams came to town.

So yea...

I'm waiting for the classic angry njx (cat...boy...?) rant to occur. Although this might not even be a worth cause.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post


and you would've fully supported and assumed that aj feeley, 2004 jeff garcia, or, say, neil o'donnell were the absolutely answers and the best possible moves each of those teams could've made?

or should we maybe admit that using three completely biased names is basically deliberate dishonesty, and attempt to make our arguments with a little less emotion in the future?
No. I'd have to look at the specific situation. He made a blanket statement. I don't think there should be blanket statement - I think that's bad practice. I think you should look at the entire situation and make decisions based on circumstances and scouting.

As for this year, with this draft class, considering what each team gave up in cap room and draft picks, I do support the Kolb, Garrard, Flynn, and Palmer acquisitions.

I don't expect all of them to work out. They all might not (how we judge "work out" is interesting too - and this subjectivity especially stimulates the specific Alex Smith aspect of this discussion).

But my point to name those three names was to refute his point that you should only draft QBs and never take retreads.

And this is besides the fact that none of the moves this offseason preclude the team from taking a QB in the draft.

Though the Alex Smith situation is a tricky one with a lot of layers to it.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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I actually had Charger season tickets for 2 years and the Raider fanbase there wasn't really anything to brag about considering that they have a "huge" fanbase only a 2 hour drive away. There were just as many Patriots, Colts, and Broncos fans at the game when those teams came to town.

So yea...

I'm waiting for the classic angry njx (cat...boy...?) rant to occur. Although this might not even be a worth cause.
Who the hell asked you to jump in the conversation anyway? Are you cat boy's owner or something? Apparently I am worth your time and you have nothing better going.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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no? why would i possibly watch two awful teams play each other for second or third place in the worst division in the nfl?



i just did. your fan base sucks. sorry if that hurts your feelings. maybe if your team wasn't a pathetic shell of the far less pathetic shell it was 20 years ago, that would be different. but then, i guess it's good to hold out hope that they'll have their first winning season in your lifetime soon.
I don't know, why would you have such a gayed-up avatar and sig pic? Don't ask me stupid questions about you.

Don't worry, you could never hope to hurt my feelings. The fact that we have had a bad teams for such a long time and the fan based remains completely loyal and energized only strengthens the thought that we have a GREAT fan base. Now before you continue to talk saucy, what team does a sap like you root for?

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Old 04-05-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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naming the three good examples out of literally hundreds of bad examples is hardly counter-evidence to his argument. i don't think having a rule of 'never' doing it would keep me from signing tom brady, if he were cut tomorrow, but it would certainly keep me from signing kevin kolb and assuming he'd be more than a backup.
Stop talking out of both sides of your neck. If there is no rule, then the argument settled. You assess each situation individually and make what you believe is the best choice. Not a hard concept to grasp.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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My god is Black Bolt emo today.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Who the hell asked you to jump in the conversation anyway? Are you cat boy's owner or something? Apparently I am worth your time and you have nothing better going.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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naming the three good examples out of literally hundreds of bad examples is hardly counter-evidence to his argument. i don't think having a rule of 'never' doing it would keep me from signing tom brady, if he were cut tomorrow, but it would certainly keep me from signing kevin kolb and assuming he'd be more than a backup.
The Bills signing Kevin Kolb may not end up helping them at all. But it's a no-brainer. This is a team with one QB ... Tjack... And 13 mil in cap space.

Furthermore, adding him does not preclude them from drafting a qb in any way.

There is no guarantee they'll get the qb they want, if any, in the draft.

They upgraded the qb position and it is a bad move? No. And Kolb wasn't even that bad last year.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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So instead of a no-risk signing of Kolb you would have rolled with tjack and prayed Geno fell to 8?
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Got it. You're starting tjack with 6 mil in your owners pocket and I'm starting Kolb.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Wow. It's a good thing I changed my avatar from a dancing cat to a ferocious bird.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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It's pretty cut and dry. Either you want Kolb in your camp or no Kolb and 6 mil in your owners pocket. You can draft whatever qb you like either way. To me there's no reason not to have him there.

Maybe he's the worst person ever and will infect all the Bills just by his presence.

Last I saw of him he drove down for the game winning Td against the best d in the nfl in relief.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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BBD,

Based on your logic - don't take retread QBs because there's just no point and you'd rather have cap space than take a chance on one- you would have been against the acquisitions of Brees, Gannon, and Matt Hasselbeck.
Huge difference being those 3 weren't "retreads" that had failed elsewhere already.

Brees was a Pro Bowler, Hasslebeck was stuck behind Favre (and was going to Seattle with Holmgren), and Gannon had, inexplicably, never been given a fair chance.

I don't really have a problem with Matt Flynn going to Seattle and then Oakland for the prices they each paid. He'll be given an opportunity to vie for the starting job, not be given it - just like last year.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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I agree about Flynn.

Palmer is debatable but if you aren't going to use the cap room, there's no point in keeping it and it cost them a 7th. And again, that doesn't stop them from taking a QB (even though Arians pretty much already said he doesn't like these QBs).

But there's no reason not to sign Kolb.

Flynn's never failed, Palmer's failed but has also tasted success (he's probably done but again, I don't see the harm in trying him with really no other options), and Kolb's failed mainly due to injuries. He's shown flashes on the field.

Alex Smith is a different story. They actually committed to him. That's type of move can be dangerous. These other moves I just don't see as bad ones because there's no risk, they upgrade the most important position, and they used very little resources to add them.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Nice read sort of confirming that LT arent as valuable as before. Highlights of the article below
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In today's pass-happy NFL, the image of the left tackle is taking a beating
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/91...-espn-magazine

The left tackle, once considered an essential building block for every franchise, has seen its importance erode in this era of read-option spread offenses....Today, QB drops are shorter, the ball comes out quicker, the passers are far more elusive and the pressure is coming from all over, not just the right defensive end.

For decades, old-school thinkers like Parcells and former Colts president Bill Polian considered quarterback, left tackle and pass rusher to be the "holy trinity" of team building. Now the argument can be made that the correlation between victories and elite left tackles no longer exists. "When coaches talk about position hierarchy, left tackle isn't among the top few anymore," an AFC team exec says. "Now it's QB, pass rusher, cornerback, wide receiver. A guy like Joe Thomas shows that a great left tackle isn't nearly sufficient."
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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I can't promise this won't be the last rant on this topic. There will likely be many more...but...

The Chiefs are about to draft a ******* OT with the #1 overall pick. How ******* dumb. They cut a high-level RT and are trying to trade a Top LT in the NFL for a second round pick SIMPLY SO THEY CAN DRAFT THE "BPA". How ******* dumb is that? Seriously. They're so concerned with drafting "BPA" that they trashed a perfectly good OL that fits a pass-oriented WCO perfectly just so they could draft a lineman. And the best part? They don't have a RT even after they draft an OT #1. ****, the #1 OT might end up having to play RT because Stephenson probably can't play over there as a full-time starter and it sounds like they're relying on Geoff Schwartz to step up and take the job.

The second round pick they get from the Dolphins might end up being used on a RT. Because they don't ******* have one right now.

They picked up Fasano, Avery, DeVito, Smith, and Robinson (S? hopefully). They re-signed Colquitt. Good job. They restructured Jackson and cut Cassel. No-brainers.

But the rest of the off-season has been just really dumb. They signed Bowe to a franchise WR contract. I like Bowe as much as anyone, but 1) he's 28 and has almost no chance to live up to that contract and 2) The strength of the Packers' front office has always been drafting receivers in the 2nd-3rd round (more on this later...). Franchise Bowe, sign Albert. Simple. Logical.

They traded at least a 2nd (#34 in 2013) and a 3rd (2014) for Alex Smith. Let's get this out of the way. I like Alex Smith. Always have, and I've always sort of believed in him or at least hoped he'd turn into what I thought he could be. But he's not been better than Cassel in similar situations, there were tons of QBs out there and the Chiefs overpaid, and making Alex Smith the QB just wasn't the right move. They traded 2 picks that could have been used to draft premium Packers-style receivers or any other given position of need.

They could have and should have waited it out. Matt Flynn was had for a late round draft pick and Kolb was had for cash. Both players fit Reid's system and could have come in right away and at least been solid-ish if the Chiefs needed them to play. Draft Geno and be done with it.

Geno/Kolb/Flynn
Charles
Moeaki
Fasano
Bowe (f-tagged)
Baldwin/Avery/drafted player X
Albert (long-term)
Allen
Hudson
Asamoah
Winston

Looks a hell of a lot better than

Alex
Charles
Moeaki
Fasano
Bowe (big ass contract he'll never live up to)
Baldwin/Avery
Joeckel/Fisher/Stephenson
Allen
Hudson
Asamoah
nobody/Joeckel/Fisher

Even if they didn't want to draft Geno, they could have been quite a bit more creative with their choice of defensive coordinator (I think Sutton has massive suck potential, to be honest) and gone with more of a Marvin Lewis-style defense that allowed Hali to put his hand down more with Houston playing Peter Boulware and the Chiefs drafting any number of defensive players at #1.

The above just goes to ******* prove their entire off-season revolved around making room so they could draft BPA (OT) at #1. ******* stupid *************. No good team revolves their entire off-season around the draft unless you're talking about getting a QB like the Colts and Redskins last year.
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:28 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
I can't promise this won't be the last rant on this topic. There will likely be many more...but...

The Chiefs are about to draft a ******* OT with the #1 overall pick. How ******* dumb. They cut a high-level RT and are trying to trade a Top LT in the NFL for a second round pick SIMPLY SO THEY CAN DRAFT THE "BPA". How ******* dumb is that? Seriously. They're so concerned with drafting "BPA" that they trashed a perfectly good OL that fits a pass-oriented WCO perfectly just so they could draft a lineman. And the best part? They don't have a RT even after they draft an OT #1. ****, the #1 OT might end up having to play RT because Stephenson probably can't play over there as a full-time starter and it sounds like they're relying on Geoff Schwartz to step up and take the job.

The second round pick they get from the Dolphins might end up being used on a RT. Because they don't ******* have one right now.

They picked up Fasano, Avery, DeVito, Smith, and Robinson (S? hopefully). They re-signed Colquitt. Good job. They restructured Jackson and cut Cassel. No-brainers.

But the rest of the off-season has been just really dumb. They signed Bowe to a franchise WR contract. I like Bowe as much as anyone, but 1) he's 28 and has almost no chance to live up to that contract and 2) The strength of the Packers' front office has always been drafting receivers in the 2nd-3rd round (more on this later...). Franchise Bowe, sign Albert. Simple. Logical.

They traded at least a 2nd (#34 in 2013) and a 3rd (2014) for Alex Smith. Let's get this out of the way. I like Alex Smith. Always have, and I've always sort of believed in him or at least hoped he'd turn into what I thought he could be. But he's not been better than Cassel in similar situations, there were tons of QBs out there and the Chiefs overpaid, and making Alex Smith the QB just wasn't the right move. They traded 2 picks that could have been used to draft premium Packers-style receivers or any other given position of need.

They could have and should have waited it out. Matt Flynn was had for a late round draft pick and Kolb was had for cash. Both players fit Reid's system and could have come in right away and at least been solid-ish if the Chiefs needed them to play. Draft Geno and be done with it.

Geno/Kolb/Flynn
Charles
Moeaki
Fasano
Bowe (f-tagged)
Baldwin/Avery/drafted player X
Albert (long-term)
Allen
Hudson
Asamoah
Winston

Looks a hell of a lot better than

Alex
Charles
Moeaki
Fasano
Bowe (big ass contract he'll never live up to)
Baldwin/Avery
Joeckel/Fisher/Stephenson
Allen
Hudson
Asamoah
nobody/Joeckel/Fisher

Even if they didn't want to draft Geno, they could have been quite a bit more creative with their choice of defensive coordinator (I think Sutton has massive suck potential, to be honest) and gone with more of a Marvin Lewis-style defense that allowed Hali to put his hand down more with Houston playing Peter Boulware and the Chiefs drafting any number of defensive players at #1.

The above just goes to ******* prove their entire off-season revolved around making room so they could draft BPA (OT) at #1. ******* stupid *************. No good team revolves their entire off-season around the draft unless you're talking about getting a QB like the Colts and Redskins last year.
If Pioli were retained and made the same moves would you still be complaining?
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:37 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villagewarrior View Post
If Pioli were retained and made the same moves would you still be complaining?
I would.

Chiefs are likely trading a former 15th overall pick (albert) for a 2nd round pick. They are likely taking the "safe" pick, a LT #1 overall. This is very similar to what Parcells did in Miami with Jake Long. Hindsight shows that it was the wrong move.

The chiefs have made similar moves in the past with Tyson Jackson and Glen Dorsey that eventually lead to the dismisal of Pioli and Carl Peterson, respectively.

At this point it just looks like the "new" regime is like the "old" regime, and the chiefs will repeat the process again in 4-5 yrs.
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