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Old 04-11-2013, 02:59 PM    (permalink
killxswitch
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Default When should the NFL expand again?

This offseason could be an outlier but, if it's not, it would appear the owners have arrived at some sort of favorable equilibrium where it is no longer necessary to overpay older or problem players that were good once. Lots of upper-shelf talents are sitting around without jobs right now. For example:

Charles Woodson
James Harrison
Karlos Dansby
Dwight Freeney
Brandon Moore
Brian Urlacher
Eric Winston
John Abraham
Tyson Clabo
Shaun Phillips
Kerry Rhodes
Antoine Winfield
Bryant McKinnie
Bart Scott
Richard Seymour
Israel Idonije
Ray Edwards

Most of these guys are still young or talented enough that they could still contribute to a roster, but owners would rather pay a rookie 20% of the money and get 80% of the production. I don't blame them, but especially once the new TV contacts start and the money gets beyond ridiculous, will it make sense to add two new teams?

Or would that still stretch the talent too thin and water down the NFL product? What other reasons are there to not expand? If they did add 2 teams, what cities would be the best or most-obvious landing spots?
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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I'd rather see the rosters get expanded than the league.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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I think every single one of those players (maybe one or two, Dansby?) are 30 or older.

Most, if not all, will get a contract after the draft.

We (and PFF + rotoworld) love Eric Winston, yet he keeps getting cut and NFL teams aren't eager to sign him. Somewhere there's a disconnect.

The NFL is fine with 32 teams. The last thing we need is two more teams starting two horrible QBs.

A lot of those guys are borderline worthless too (Bart Scott, James Harrison).

And for Brandon Moore, who's still good, I suspect he's just asking for more money than teams want to pay an old guard, especially considering this draft class.

And that's probably the case for a couple of those names on there.

And Winfield's going to sign somewhere very soon...

Those guys are all old lol.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Maybe raise the roster limit from 53 to 56?

I don't like the thought of expanding the league.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post

We (and PFF + rotoworld) love Eric Winston, yet he keeps getting cut and NFL teams aren't eager to sign him. Somewhere there's a disconnect.
I don't see what people love about him so much.

But anyways, yeah the remaining players are old. The only thing we're seeing is that teams are going to wait and sign older players until they see if they can draft younger ones.

Brandon Moore is one of the better guards in the league, but with the rookie pay scale you can get a guy who's going to get paid similar to what I think Moore will get, but he can be there for a long time.

With the CBA I think we'll start seeing more and more of teams retaining their own young players via contract extensions before they ever hit FA, the only one's that will likely hit FA are the ones that simply want way too much, or the ones that are older and may want too long of a contract for their age.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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there are very little markets that do not already have a team that could support one... and even some of the markets teams have now are having trouble supporting them.


But raising the roster limit would help but the trouble then would be to what number? and then you would have to increase the salary cap to be able to pay the extra players... then that would mean the teams would need more money


alot of variables
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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Increase the roster sizer and cap instead of adding more teams. There aren't enough QBs as it is right now and adding in more would make it worse.
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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Increase the roster sizer and cap instead of adding more teams. There aren't enough QBs as it is right now and adding in more would make it worse.
You mean you don't want to see another team QB'd by Tim Tebow?
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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The NFL is fine with 32 teams. The last thing we need is two more teams starting two horrible QBs.
Yeah, we already have the Jets starting Sanchez and the Jags starting Blaine Gabbert.
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Expand the weekly rosters would be the 1st step in the right direction. We've reached the right # of teams to where there's equal balance in terms of both the AFC/NFC and each division. I don't think that balance is equaled by other pro sports leagues.

Agree, most of the players listed will be signed after the draft, during training camps or sometime during the season. The draft offers relatively cheap talent for teams. The rookie $ pool is far better now than it was before the new CBA went into affect.

I don't think there's enough talent to fill out two more teams. We already have enough lousy tackles as is. Where do you get the extra QBs from as well?
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Does anyone think this is a result of the rookie wage scale? The idea was supposed to be that veterans were supposed to get the big payouts instead of rookies, but it seems more like it just incentivizes teams to release their expensive players and draft cheap replacements.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Does anyone think this is a result of the rookie wage scale? The idea was supposed to be that veterans were supposed to get the big payouts instead of rookies, but it seems more like it just incentivizes teams to release their expensive players and draft cheap replacements.
No, because picks after 32 now get more money than before and teams were already not going to cut first rounders.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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Expansion is what the league always wants, I find it stupid.

They want the NFL to reach Europe so bad, maybe they should try to convince 8 countries in Europe to get teams to make their own mini league and try to develop it there, wash ups can go play there or UFA who want to make a name.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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The division structure is just so perfect right now I don't want to see any teams added to it.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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London team!!!!!!!
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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As others fave said, they shouldn't expand because there is a severe shortage of quarterbacks in the league. Adding more teams would just water things down.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Besides good players is used loosely.

I never understood what Bart Scott did so well to earn that contract, but he surely didn't produce what the Jets had hoped for in the 4 years after.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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Look at it this way, the more teams there are, the more chance we have of seeing Tebow starting.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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Look at it this way, the more teams there are, the more chance we have of seeing Tebow starting.
And Brady Quinn and Jamarcus and Leinart. The possibilities are endless.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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Why overpay for an aging, declining player when you can sign a young guy who might not have the full production, but is cheaper and more likelihood of improving?
Woodson is coming off an injury riddled down year, Urlacher is widely regarded as being one of the worst MLB's last year and got injured, Freeney has performed average and wants $6 mil a year, I mean, why sign these guys.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:13 AM    (permalink
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Does anyone think this is a result of the rookie wage scale? The idea was supposed to be that veterans were supposed to get the big payouts instead of rookies, but it seems more like it just incentivizes teams to release their expensive players and draft cheap replacements.
It's twofold in my opinion. There is definitely a process going on to replace high paid veterans with cheaper talent, the union actually screwed their veterans by accepting the rookie wage scale. When you have a 2 tier pay system this is what happens.

However, the whole process was speeded up considerably by a flat cap, which will also take place again next year. Teams who had spent near the cap limit for years soon realized that the cap increase this season wouldn't be enough to handle the rising player salaries and a real cap doghouse was now quite possible and will remain so for next season as well.

This is causing a real change in team strategy towards salary. They are realizing that their stars especially their QB, must be paid huge dollars and that the farther you get from being a star, you are going to get peanuts for playing one of the toughest sports in the world, where short careers are the norm. This has meant that for the most part, franchising a player to retain his services for a huge salary boost, has practically come to a halt, and more and more, veterans are going to be asked to take pay cuts to retain their jobs.

The players are going to quickly realize that the new CBA was a total victory for the owners, that without rookie salaries to drive up payrolls, the owners can now bring in cheap labour, to replace expensive veterans and almost every team will carry a minimum of 6 or 7 rookies even if they aren't as good as the players they are replacing. It will be an actual pool of scabs who are supported by the Player's Union.

The result will be a far less talented NFL, but the NFL knows that as long as the stars are retained, the fans won't even notice the deterioration of the overall play.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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You guys make a good case for expanded roster sizes, but will that really make more money for the owners? If not, I don't expect them to do it.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
Does anyone think this is a result of the rookie wage scale? The idea was supposed to be that veterans were supposed to get the big payouts instead of rookies, but it seems more like it just incentivizes teams to release their expensive players and draft cheap replacements.
What I think is starting to happen is there will be two distinct philosophies around the league;

1. Teams will look to resign more of their own guys and keep a solid nucleus for as long as possible

2. Teams will use a large portion of their cap on a few players - franchise QBs etc are getting paid ridiculous money because that is the market value, top defensive players getting $100m contracts etc.

What both options then need to do is fill out their roster with relatively cheap options and the rookie wage scale means that those options are more likely to come from the draft.

As has been mentioned already, these guys will sign, but it will likely be in the Summer after the draft. Why bring in Dwight Freeney if you can get a guy like Ziggy Ansah for less money and a longer deal? A few years ago Ansah would have cost more than Freeney and you didn't know what you would get, but it's not the same anymore. Those teams still with holes to fill will pick these guys up. For the ones who are looking more than what teams are willing, we will see how high their price tag is in August
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