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Old 04-18-2013, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by GoRavens View Post
I don't think he'll ever be a consistent pass rusher in the NFL.
For a team to expect that is unrealistic.
I see him bulking up as a run stuffing end, more of a 3-4 type, versatile enough to move around schematically.
- That said, I wouldn't touch him in the first 20 picks.
Why is that unrealistic to expect?

It's not as if he doesn't have the athleticism to become that type of player.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Workout warrior. Doesnt have football iq, getting by on just skill. Should be like 2/4 round pick. Doesnt have the stats either for a first rounder
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Workout warrior. Doesnt have football iq, getting by on just skill. Should be like 2/4 round pick. Doesnt have the stats either for a first rounder
lebeau didnt even need his viagara to get it up when he put ansah through LB drills....fwiw
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Workout warrior. Doesnt have football iq, getting by on just skill. Should be like 2/4 round pick. Doesnt have the stats either for a first rounder
You say workout warriors like it's a bad thing lol.

Doesn't have football iq? I'm not sure how you worked that one out. That's just a stereotype because he's athletic and only started playing the game recently. There is no basis for that. Not that it would be important anyway. He's going to be a defensive end rushing the passer, not a quarterback.

Stats? He played defensive tackle most of the year and had 4.5 sacks and 13 tfl. In his first year as a starter. What more do you expect?

Come back when you have an actual argument against Ansah.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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You say workout warriors like it's a bad thing lol.

Doesn't have football iq? I'm not sure how you worked that one out. That's just a stereotype because he's athletic and only started playing the game recently. There is no basis for that. Not that it would be important anyway. He's going to be a defensive end rushing the passer, not a quarterback.

Stats? He played defensive tackle most of the year and had 4.5 sacks and 13 tfl. In his first year as a starter. What more do you expect?

Come back when you have an actual argument against Ansah.

Simply put, if I'm investing a high, premium draft pick, and premium money into a player that is being drafted solely for the ability to rush the passer, then I want him to have a baseline level of production rushing the passer in college.

If we're talking about Ansah as a DT prospect that is not going to rush the passer heavily in college, then his stats are fine. But we're not evaluating him as a DT in the NFL because he doesn't have the size. We're evaluating him as an edge rusher, and his stats simply do not meet the requirements for first round consideration as an edge rusher.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Simply put, if I'm investing a high, premium draft pick, and premium money into a player that is being drafted solely for the ability to rush the passer, then I want him to have a baseline level of production rushing the passer in college.

If we're talking about Ansah as a DT prospect that is not going to rush the passer heavily in college, then his stats are fine. But we're not evaluating him as a DT in the NFL because he doesn't have the size. We're evaluating him as an edge rusher, and his stats simply do not meet the requirements for first round consideration as an edge rusher.
It's a projection. Players aren't drafted for what they did in college, they're drafted for what they're going to do in the NFL. Pointless stats such as number of sacks, mean absolutely nothing.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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It's a projection. Players aren't drafted for what they did in college, they're drafted for what they're going to do in the NFL. Pointless stats such as number of sacks, mean absolutely nothing.
What would not be a pointless stat then?

I don't have a problem drafting and projecting him, just reaching for him in the top 10 of the first round is the problem.

You see other guys with great numbers and they are tossed aside for the second and third round. Say a Margus Hunt, why is he not as good as Ezekiel?

I also believe you are vastly under rating football IQ.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Read today that he didn't work out for the combine. 0.0
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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What would not be a pointless stat then?

I don't have a problem drafting and projecting him, just reaching for him in the top 10 of the first round is the problem.

You see other guys with great numbers and they are tossed aside for the second and third round. Say a Margus Hunt, why is he not as good as Ezekiel?

I also believe you are vastly under rating football IQ.
Stats vary in usefulness depending on the amount of outside factors that can effect them.

Eg. 'sacks' can be effected by a lot of different outside factors, such as whether the QB throws the ball away, whether the QB is escapes the sack, whether another pass rusher tackles him first, etc etc etc...

So why is Ansah a reach in the top 10?

And seriously? Is that an actual question? That's like asking 'Drew Brees and Chase Daniel are about the same size, why is Brees better than him?'. Because Brees does the things he's meant to do better than Chase Daniel. Same with Ziggy and Margus.

This is obviously just some stupid stereotype you have with 'workout warriors'. Have you even watched Ansah play before? You just assume Margus and Ziggy are the same players because they're both athletic. I hope you realize how ridiculous that is.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Simply put, if I'm investing a high, premium draft pick, and premium money into a player that is being drafted solely for the ability to rush the passer, then I want him to have a baseline level of production rushing the passer in college.

If we're talking about Ansah as a DT prospect that is not going to rush the passer heavily in college, then his stats are fine. But we're not evaluating him as a DT in the NFL because he doesn't have the size. We're evaluating him as an edge rusher, and his stats simply do not meet the requirements for first round consideration as an edge rusher.
I don't think any team is seeing him as just a pass rusher. He's a big, long armed athlete who is physical and plays the run well. He fits the bill as prototype 43 DE, he's not just a pass rusher.

It's like SuperPacker said, the NFL teams are trying to project what these guys will turn out to be as pros. Plenty of big stats guys are high pick busts, or aren't even viewed as worthy of high picks and also never do anything if they are given a shot as pros.

Clay Matthews stats simply do not meet the requirements for first round consideration as an edge rusher, right? It's just not so black and white. Btw, have you watched Ansah?
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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I understand the production argument against Ansah, but that argument also punishes him for the position/scheme he played in at BYU. As a 3-4 DE and NT he wasn't going to rack up a lot of sacks.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Stats vary in usefulness depending on the amount of outside factors that can effect them.

Eg. 'sacks' can be effected by a lot of different outside factors, such as whether the QB throws the ball away, whether the QB is escapes the sack, whether another pass rusher tackles him first, etc etc etc...

So why is Ansah a reach in the top 10?

And seriously? Is that an actual question? That's like asking 'Drew Brees and Chase Daniel are about the same size, why is Brees better than him?'. Because Brees does the things he's meant to do better than Chase Daniel. Same with Ziggy and Margus.

This is obviously just some stupid stereotype you have with 'workout warriors'. Have you even watched Ansah play before? You just assume Margus and Ziggy are the same players because they're both athletic. I hope you realize how ridiculous that is.
They do provide a good backing, just like combine numbers provide a good backing. They aren't meant to be the stand alone factor, but you go see that he a great athlete, he doesn't have something to back it up. And yes, since he was playing vastly out of position you expect that, but you are going to project him to another position all together, and not only that but as a top 10 pick.

Just to many factors for things to work out properly, in the top 10. To high a bust factor, I would be all in for a mid first round pick.

HEHE....hell I would draft him at 11 just like J.J Watt.

And I was hoping you would provide me specifics as to why the 2 players are so different.

Quote:
And seriously? Is that an actual question? That's like asking 'Drew Brees and Chase Daniel are about the same size, why is Brees better than him?'. Because Brees does the things he's meant to do better than Chase Daniel. Same with Ziggy and Margus.
Yes, and yes.

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Brees does the things he's meant to do better than Chase Daniel
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:50 AM    (permalink
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Ansah might be slightly overdrafted in the top 5, but again remember in the rookie salary cap era teams have an incentive to take chances on talent.

Ansah to me jumps out on film with his movement skills, ability to chase and pursue and his strength. His recognition IMO is much better than Margus Hunt who looks slow to react quite often on game film.

Scouting and drafting for any NFL team is tricky. For instance, correct me if I'm wrong but did Brian Urlacher even play LBer extensively if at all at New Mexico?? Or was he a big safety that converted for the draft???

You put Ansah outside in a 43 front and give him some simple run/pass keys to read, I think he can dominate. No way would I put him at 34 OLB with coverage responsibilities.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:37 AM    (permalink
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It's a projection. Players aren't drafted for what they did in college, they're drafted for what they're going to do in the NFL. Pointless stats such as number of sacks, mean absolutely nothing.
I have told this guy the same thing for weeks now. He is stubborn and wants to be right at any cost.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:40 AM    (permalink
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I don't think any team is seeing him as just a pass rusher. He's a big, long armed athlete who is physical and plays the run well. He fits the bill as prototype 43 DE, he's not just a pass rusher.

It's like SuperPacker said, the NFL teams are trying to project what these guys will turn out to be as pros. Plenty of big stats guys are high pick busts, or aren't even viewed as worthy of high picks and also never do anything if they are given a shot as pros.

Clay Matthews stats simply do not meet the requirements for first round consideration as an edge rusher, right? It's just not so black and white. Btw, have you watched Ansah?
I have told this guy the same thing for weeks now. He is stubborn and wants to be right at any cost.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:46 AM    (permalink
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What would not be a pointless stat then?

I don't have a problem drafting and projecting him, just reaching for him in the top 10 of the first round is the problem.

You see other guys with great numbers and they are tossed aside for the second and third round. Say a Margus Hunt, why is he not as good as Ezekiel?I also believe you are vastly under rating football IQ.
I don't know why, but he definitely is. All you have to do is watch them play. The differences are obvious. Hunt does not get off of blocks at the same rate. He can't touch Ansah when it comes to pursuing the ball laterally. Ansah plays a little high at times- Hunt plays higher most of the time. Hunt gets caught inside way too much and allows runners to break contain whereas Ansah has a radar lock on the ball. Ansah's movement skills are elite, Hunt's don't even come close not.
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Kaepernick is this years pat white. Thin, gimmick offense and doesn't possess an nfl arm. The ncaa constantly regurgitates clones of past players and amazingly enough, tricks some people into thinking they're better than their cloned half. Kaepernick was a complete waste of a senior bowl qb spot. A better qb will come from the east/west shrine or whatever they're calling it now...count on it

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Old 04-19-2013, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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I don't think he'll ever be a consistent pass rusher in the NFL.
For a team to expect that is unrealistic.
I see him bulking up as a run stuffing end, more of a 3-4 type, versatile enough to move around schematically.
- That said, I wouldn't touch him in the first 20 picks.
Good, but I bet Ozzie would touch him in the top ten if given the opportunity.
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Kaepernick is this years pat white. Thin, gimmick offense and doesn't possess an nfl arm. The ncaa constantly regurgitates clones of past players and amazingly enough, tricks some people into thinking they're better than their cloned half. Kaepernick was a complete waste of a senior bowl qb spot. A better qb will come from the east/west shrine or whatever they're calling it now...count on it

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Old 04-19-2013, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Ansah might be slightly overdrafted in the top 5, but again remember in the rookie salary cap era teams have an incentive to take chances on talent.

Ansah to me jumps out on film with his movement skills, ability to chase and pursue and his strength. His recognition IMO is much better than Margus Hunt who looks slow to react quite often on game film.

Scouting and drafting for any NFL team is tricky. For instance, correct me if I'm wrong but did Brian Urlacher even play LBer extensively if at all at New Mexico?? Or was he a big safety that converted for the draft???

You put Ansah outside in a 43 front and give him some simple run/pass keys to read, I think he can dominate. No way would I put him at 34 OLB with coverage responsibilities.
Yeah, and the other factor is the weak DE class of this year. You have to put him at the top as he is the best of the class. Combine that factor with DE being a premium position and no elite QB prospects to push other talent down, and Ansah is likely a top five selection in this years draft. Great character doesn't hurt either.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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I don't know why, but he definitely is. All you have to do is watch them play. The differences are obvious. Hunt does not get off of blocks at the same rate. He can't touch Ansah when it comes to pursuing the ball laterally. Ansah plays a little high at times- Hunt plays higher most of the time. Hunt gets caught inside way too much and allows runners to break contain whereas Ansah has a radar lock on the ball. Ansah's movement skills are elite, Hunt's don't even come close not.
Well Thank You, I was hoping SP would give a accurate answer like that.

And I know they are vastly different, but from a pure triangle numbers you would say both a workout warriors.

Historically we know that workout warriors more than not fail. I had more of a problem with SP thinking workout warriors are good.

Given each case is different cases by case and I do love Ansah, as I've stated in the start of this thread. But you should still take cation, when you draft and project him.

I think he can be just as good as J.J. Watt, in a 3-4 DE, or Jumbo 3-4 Olb and 4-3 DE. He gives you a lot of versatility, his main positions being 3-4DE in a 1 gap and 4-3 DE.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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I really don't think Ansah is going top 10, I don't think any GM is going to risk his career by taking him that high.

1) he was horrible during the Senior Bowl practices and manhandled by every OT there.
2) during the game he totally dominated but people forget that the playing rules of the Senior Bowl are very restrictive for both the offense and defense and really suit athletic ability over technique, he's never going to see that type of offense at the next level where his athletic ability won't be enough in complicated offenses.
3) he could develop but has a very high bust factor, and if he develops, it will be at least 2 years before he is anywhere near effective. So which NFL team is willing toi wait another 2 years before they can get anything out of this guy.

I think possibly, some team in the 11-17 group will draft him but he could have a really long day at the draft and may not get drafted till late round 1 or even early round 2.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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2) during the game he totally dominated but people forget that the playing rules of the Senior Bowl are very restrictive for both the offense and defense and really suit athletic ability over technique, he's never going to see that type of offense at the next level where his athletic ability won't be enough in complicated offenses.
3) he could develop but has a very high bust factor, and if he develops, it will be at least 2 years before he is anywhere near effective. So which NFL team is willing toi wait another 2 years before they can get anything out of this guy.
His abilities shouldn't be totally nullified by an intricate NFL offensive game plan. Whether he is raw or not, I've seen him make plays all over the field and lined up in different positions. He seems to react pretty quickly to plays, doesn't seem to get lost as one may think with the term "raw" being used. And this is not rocket science for a DL, even at the NFL level. We're not talking about Vince Young transitioning to the NFL.

He may be raw in the fact that he's relatively new to football, but I don't see it taking 2 years before he can be effective. That is from a 43 front point of view anyway, where I think his abilities would be best used. If he's going to be a 34 olb, yeah he would probably transition slower. But even if he's just asked to rush the passer on passing downs at the start, I think he will do that well and be able to do it outside or inside further increasing his versatility and chances to contribute.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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It's amazing how the QBs are being mercilessly destroyed while the most unproven players are praised as the top options in this draft. The QBs aren't good because of "inconsistencies". What has Ansah done? His consistency is he has not done anything, unless a Senior Bowl game can define a career. Remember Robert Ayers, the defensive MVP? It's puzzling. If you're going to bet on potential, I'd rather bet on a QB because you don't win without one.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
I really don't think Ansah is going top 10, I don't think any GM is going to risk his career by taking him that high.

1) he was horrible during the Senior Bowl practices and manhandled by every OT there.
2) during the game he totally dominated but people forget that the playing rules of the Senior Bowl are very restrictive for both the offense and defense and really suit athletic ability over technique, he's never going to see that type of offense at the next level where his athletic ability won't be enough in complicated offenses.
3) he could develop but has a very high bust factor, and if he develops, it will be at least 2 years before he is anywhere near effective. So which NFL team is willing toi wait another 2 years before they can get anything out of this guy.

I think possibly, some team in the 11-17 group will draft him but he could have a really long day at the draft and may not get drafted till late round 1 or even early round 2.
Where are you getting that he was manhandled by every OT there?
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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It's amazing how the QBs are being mercilessly destroyed while the most unproven players are praised as the top options in this draft. The QBs aren't good because of "inconsistencies". What has Ansah done? His consistency is he has not done anything, unless a Senior Bowl game can define a career. Remember Robert Ayers, the defensive MVP? It's puzzling. If you're going to bet on potential, I'd rather bet on a QB because you don't win without one.
Actually, he had 60+ tackles, 14 TFL and 4.5 sacks last year as an interior lineman. That's doing nothing?
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Kaepernick is this years pat white. Thin, gimmick offense and doesn't possess an nfl arm. The ncaa constantly regurgitates clones of past players and amazingly enough, tricks some people into thinking they're better than their cloned half. Kaepernick was a complete waste of a senior bowl qb spot. A better qb will come from the east/west shrine or whatever they're calling it now...count on it

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Old 04-19-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Well Thank You, I was hoping SP would give a accurate answer like that.

And I know they are vastly different, but from a pure triangle numbers you would say both a workout warriors.

Historically we know that workout warriors more than not fail. I had more of a problem with SP thinking workout warriors are good.

Given each case is different cases by case and I do love Ansah, as I've stated in the start of this thread. But you should still take cation, when you draft and project him.

I think he can be just as good as J.J. Watt, in a 3-4 DE, or Jumbo 3-4 Olb and 4-3 DE. He gives you a lot of versatility, his main positions being 3-4DE in a 1 gap and 4-3 DE.
That's just it, he is not simply a workout warrior. He has some production and good film. Truth be told, he had already made a name for himself prior to the combine. You don't make the leap from undrafted free agent to 1st round pick on a workout.
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Kaepernick is this years pat white. Thin, gimmick offense and doesn't possess an nfl arm. The ncaa constantly regurgitates clones of past players and amazingly enough, tricks some people into thinking they're better than their cloned half. Kaepernick was a complete waste of a senior bowl qb spot. A better qb will come from the east/west shrine or whatever they're calling it now...count on it

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