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Old 04-22-2013, 04:00 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Lol, he's so upset. I love it.
It makes me wish JR read this forum and traded up for Zeke just so AT could enjoy watching the two busts rape his teams QB for the next decade.

EDIT: I dunno about you guys, but I'd much rather have a physically limited part-time player with a very serious injury already on his resume than the every down freak who's been a crucial part of a superbowl contender during his All-Pro sophomore season.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 04-22-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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EDIT: I dunno about you guys, but I'd much rather have a physically limited part-time player with a very serious injury already on his resume than the every down freak who's been a crucial part of a superbowl contender during his All-Pro sophomore season.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Graham was a better pass rusher than JPP last year.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
Graham was a better pass rusher than JPP last year.
...in terms of producing pressures on a per snap basis...
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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I just want to get this one in for a final time before Thursday.

Bust...Busta..Bust bust bu -bu bust bust busta-roo buster BUST!

And a good day to you fellas....
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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He had one major injury in 2010 that forced him to sit out in 2011.

Also, while the sack numbers are comparable, in less snaps, you really have to look at the pressure numbers (sacks+hits+hurries) to see the difference. Graham LAPS Pierre Paul per rush, and you can check Profootballfocus.com for more info.
idk what you talking about, I don't see either in the top 20. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-productivity/
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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How is this not a completely homer-tastic statement from a Giants fan?

You did watch 2010 and 2012 right? And you do understand that an ACL tear prevented Graham from competing in this contest in 2011 completely, right?

And for the record, I'm not even an Eagles fan. I'm a Raiders fan. My favorite player from the 2010 draft though was Graham, and I though Pierre Paul would be a bust. I still think that Pierre Paul could be seen as a "one year wonder" and Graham can be Defensive Player of the Year caliber player in the right system.

Graham will NEVER be DPOTY.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Graham was a better pass rusher than JPP last year.
Except he wasn't. Evaluating pass rushers solely on the basis of one pass rush productivity stat which holds all pass rushers in a vacuum regardless of the scheme, situation, and what the actual results of those plays were is fundamentally stupid. Brandon Graham wasn't a better player last season than JPP any more than Mark Anderson was a better pass rusher in 2011 than Julius Peppers because his pass rush productivity stats were better on a per snap basis.

If you actually consider how many plays are actually influenced by pass rush, and then consider how many "pressures" a lot of these guys supposedly have, you realize that the majority of these "pressures" are trivial towards the actual results of a play.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Not to start anything, but I think if Derrick Morgan's ears weren't so pronounced, he'd be better than JPP and Graham COMBINED.

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Old 04-22-2013, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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The funniest part is Graham isn't even good enough to start for them. And they picked up Connor Barwin in FA. And drafted Vinny Curry last year.

That shows how much faith they have in DPOY Brandon Graham.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
It makes me wish JR read this forum and traded up for Zeke just so AT could enjoy watching the two busts rape his teams QB for the next decade.

EDIT: I dunno about you guys, but I'd much rather have a physically limited part-time player with a very serious injury already on his resume than the every down freak who's been a crucial part of a superbowl contender during his All-Pro sophomore season.
LMAO, me too.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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I don't read PFF and I don't have the stats readily available. How do JPP and Graham's pressures/snap stack up over a three year span?
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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The funniest part is Graham isn't even good enough to start for them. And they picked up Connor Barwin in FA. And drafted Vinny Curry last year.

That shows how much faith they have in DPOY Brandon Graham.
Connor Barwin on one side, Graham on the other. Those will be the starters next year.

You ever hear of "BPA" approach to drafting? The same reason why the Giants drafted Jason Pierre Paul when they had Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck. That's the reason they drafted Vinny Curry last year.

And this year, all of the beat writers are basically saying that Curry will have to play 3-4 DE, and is bulking up to do so, to stay on the roster.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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Except he wasn't. Evaluating pass rushers solely on the basis of one pass rush productivity stat which holds all pass rushers in a vacuum regardless of the scheme, situation, and what the actual results of those plays were is fundamentally stupid. Brandon Graham wasn't a better player last season than JPP any more than Mark Anderson was a better pass rusher in 2011 than Julius Peppers because his pass rush productivity stats were better on a per snap basis.
You might as well just write "Jason Pierre Paul was better because I said so" in every one of your posts, given how you completely refute any statistics or logical arguments and hope that we capitulate to your opinion just because you its yours.

Who would you say was a better player - the RB who achieves 1000 yards on on 200 carries for a 5.0 YPC or the plodding, slow, grinder who churns out 1000 yards on 250 carries for a 4.0 YPC? Both players got the same number of yards, but the 5.0 YPC RB was more efficient doing so, and achieved the same in less snaps, which allowed the team to do more things like pass the ball in those snaps that he didn't waste like the 4.0 YPC back did.

Graham produced similarly to Pierre Paul last year in FAR LESS SNAPS. That means he was a better player: he achieved the same, and had even more pressures, really, in far less snaps. That's efficiency.


Quote:
If you actually consider how many plays are actually influenced by pass rush, and then consider how many "pressures" a lot of these guys supposedly have, you realize that the majority of these "pressures" are trivial towards the actual results of a play.
That's ridiculous. Pressure has a huge effect on the play of the quarterback. Pressures cause the QB to throw the ball away or to throw interceptions. Over the course of a game, they also cause the QB to play faster and affect his decision-making.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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It makes me wish JR read this forum and traded up for Zeke just so AT could enjoy watching the two busts rape his teams QB for the next decade.

EDIT: I dunno about you guys, but I'd much rather have a physically limited part-time player with a very serious injury already on his resume than the every down freak who's been a crucial part of a superbowl contender during his All-Pro sophomore season.
Graham was only a part-time player last year because the coaching staff had alot invested in Jason Babin.

Pierre Paul was less important to the Giants super Bowl run in 2011 than all of the following players: 1. Eli Manning 2. Justin Tuck 3. Osi Umenyiora 4. Victor Cruz.

Going forward, with Tuck declining and Osi gone, I'd be shocked if the Giants D-Line is even league-average, because Pierre Paul as their best player means that they will be a mediocre pass-rushing line unless they replace Osi and Tuck somehow.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:01 AM    (permalink
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Graham was only a part-time player last year because the coaching staff had alot invested in Jason Babin.

Pierre Paul was less important to the Giants super Bowl run in 2011 than all of the following players: 1. Eli Manning 2. Justin Tuck 3. Osi Umenyiora 4. Victor Cruz.


Going forward, with Tuck declining and Osi gone, I'd be shocked if the Giants D-Line is even league-average, because Pierre Paul as their best player means that they will be a mediocre pass-rushing line unless they replace Osi and Tuck somehow.

In 2011 JPP was the Giants best pass rusher. I don't even know how you're even trying to spin that.

Eli/Cruz/JPP were the Giants most valuable players that season.

JPP needs help, but you're talking like somehow he's holding back the Giants pass rush with Osi gone and Tuck getting older.

Or are you trying to say that Pierre Paul is a 'system' player and not really that talented???

Each post you make on this subject sucks you further down the rabbit hole.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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If you have to split snaps with Jason Babin you probably aren't a future DPOY...
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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In 2011 JPP was the Giants best pass rusher. I don't even know how you're even trying to spin that.

Eli/Cruz/JPP were the Giants most valuable players that season.

JPP needs help, but you're talking like somehow he's holding back the Giants pass rush with Osi gone and Tuck getting older.

Or are you trying to say that Pierre Paul is a 'system' player and not really that talented???

Each post you make on this subject sucks you further down the rabbit hole.
NYG vs. ATL, Wild-card round, 2011 playoffs:
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...1201080nyg.htm

Osi Umenyiora 1.0 sacks
Rocky Bernard 1.0 sacks
Jason Pierre Paul 0.0 sacks

NYG @ GB, Divisional round, 2011 playoffs:
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...1201150gnb.htm

Osi Umenyiora 2.0 sacks
Michael Boley 2.0 sacks
Jason Pierre Paul 0.0 sacks

NYG @ SF, Conference Championship, 2011 playoffs:
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...1201220sfo.htm

Justin Tuck 1.5 sacks
Mathias Kiwanuka 0.5 sacks
Osi Umenyiora 0.5 sacks
Jason Pierre Paul 0.5 sacks

NYG vs. NE, Super Bowl XLVI:
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...1202050nwe.htm

Justin Tuck 2.0 sacks
Jason Pierre Paul 0.0 sacks



Jason Pierre Paul was almost non-existent in the playoffs in 2011. Without him they probably would have still won the Super Bowl. The big keys in the 2011 playoffs for the Giants were:

1. Eli Manning playing extremely clutch throughout the 2011 regular season and the playoffs.
2. Victor Cruz being the most dyanmic slot receiver in the entire game that season and in the playoffs, and forcing defensive coordinators to build their entire gameplans around him
3. Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham benefiting from all the attention showered on Cruz
4. Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora forming an elite bookend pass rush throughout the playoffs. This was their "last hurrah" before fading into injury-riddled ineffectiveness (Tuck) or leaving the team (Osi)
5. Corey Webster and Antrelle Rolle playing surprisingly well behind that pass rush, with Rolle specifically shutting down guys in the slot and Webster blanketing #1 WRs all playoffs long
6. Linval Joseph, Chris Canty, and Rocky Bernard all playing very solid on the interior against both the run specifically (Joseph was rock-solid vs the run in 2011) and great as interior pass rushers (Canty in particular was healthy and a beast on the inside)

I'd put Jason Pierre Paul behind all of these guys as to why the Giants won a Super Bowl in 2011.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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If you have to split snaps with Jason Babin you probably aren't a future DPOY...
Or your Defensive Line coach (Jim Washburn) is in love with Jason Babin.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Or your Defensive Line coach (Jim Washburn) is in love with Jason Babin.
Jim Washburn: "Hmm this Graham is a DPOY kind of guy, but......NAH BABIN"

I'm sure that's what's going on in his head.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:49 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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I'd still argue that all the Giants pass rushers during that playoff run benefited from all the attention JPP received form opposing OCs.
Who do you think opponents had red marked in their scouting report?? Osi?? Tuck?? Kiwanuka?? Or JPP??

You've got to get to the playoffs to win a SB and no single player other than Eli and Cruz helped the Giants more that season get to a SB than JPP.

Saying that Manningham/Nicks/Tuck/Osi/Webster/Rolle/Canty/Joseph/Bernard were ALL individually more important to the 2011 Giants SB squad than JPP is either completely delusional on your part, or a high level form a trolling.

You went from saying Brandon Graham is better than JPP and a future DPOTY, to arguing that JPP was basically a scrub afterthought in a year when he was ALL-PRO.

Come on AT. Be serious.

I believe in some crazy things too, but I don't say them out in public.
Because I might sound....you know, CRAZY.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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Brandon Graham hasn't gotten this much love since he was getting recruited out of HS to Michigan.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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Jim Washburn: "Hmm this Graham is a DPOY kind of guy, but......NAH BABIN"

I'm sure that's what's going on in his head.
If you don't think coaches are loyal to certain players for reasons other than their playing ability, then you are laughably naive.

Jason Babin was a bust until he played in Jim Washburn's system in Tennessee, whereupon he was made a Pro Bowler in his first season in that system. Babin took Washburn and his wife with him to Hawaii for Pro Bowl week. Then Washburn, after he was hired by the Eagles, personally requested that Babin follow him to the Eagles. The Eagles signed Babin to a multi-year deal strictly because of Washburn's hiring as DL coach in 2011. Babin had an amazing year in 2011, as a Pro Bowler again, and almost setting the single season sack record with 16+ sacks. After all this, you think Washburn is just going to tell Babin, a highly outspoken and strong-willed individual, "Hey, yeah, uh, you had 16 sacks last year and we're tighter than tight, and we already have you in a rotation with this other guy named Graham, but I'm going to need you to take a seat completely and give up all your snaps because he might be better than you."


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Old 04-23-2013, 02:17 AM    (permalink
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I'd still argue that all the Giants pass rushers during that playoff run benefited from all the attention JPP received form opposing OCs.
Who do you think opponents had red marked in their scouting report?? Osi?? Tuck?? Kiwanuka?? Or JPP??
Classic chicken-or-the-egg problem. Does Jason Pierre Paul benefit from Osi and Tuck playing around him or do Osi and Tuck benefit from Pierre Paul playing with them?

Seeing as how the Giants had already won a Super Bowl based on Osi and Tuck's pass rush ability in 2007 before Jason PIerre Paul was even in the picture, I'm going to lean toward... um... THE FORMER.

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You've got to get to the playoffs to win a SB and no single player other than Eli and Cruz helped the Giants more that season get to a SB than JPP.
Actually, all of those that I listed did more for the team. Pierre Paul converted an inordinate number of his pressures into sacks for a splashy final end-of-season statline, and he played solid run defense, but that's about it. Osi and Tuck were more valuable players in the playoffs for sure, and in the regular season, despite the gaudy sack stats on the part of Pierre Paul, were probably more valuable there as well.

Quote:
Saying that Manningham/Nicks/Tuck/Osi/Webster/Rolle/Canty/Joseph/Bernard were ALL individually more important to the 2011 Giants SB squad than JPP is either completely delusional on your part, or a high level form a trolling.
Just because you say something is true doesn't mean it is true. You have no evidence or logic to dispute my point and all you can say is "troll! delusional!!" Maybe if you actually come up with some decent points you can debate this with me. Until then, you have nothing.

Quote:
You went from saying Brandon Graham is better than JPP and a future DPOTY, to arguing that JPP was basically a scrub afterthought in a year when he was ALL-PRO.
Pierre Paul had a very good regular season in 2011. He was outplayed by Graham in 2010 and 2012. He was also outplayed by his own teammates on the defensive line in the 2011 playoffs and was not nearly as valuable to the Super Bowl run as people would have you believe.

That is all.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:34 AM    (permalink
pierce2walker
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So the guy who is touting Brandon Graham as a DPOY is calling others "hilariously naive".

You're also saying that Washburn (a very respected DL coach around the league) is keeping this DPOY on the bench because a different (and vastly inferior) player flew him and his wife to Hawaii therefore Jim Washburn doesn't have the balls to bench him.

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