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Old 04-28-2013, 05:52 PM    (permalink
bigbuc
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Slow down on the Arthur Brown hype. He was a small LB in college, he's going to be a small LB in the pros. Nice player, future starter but he won't ever IMO dominate on the NFL level. He's a run and chase guy I don't see ever being much of a factor against the run.

Ogletree>>>>>Brown.
Lavonte David... people said everything you said about Brown about David. All he did was ball out in the NFL. Guys a monster.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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I just don't like Pugh and Moore as prospects, and definitely not where the Giants took them (had a second round grade on Pugh, as a left guard, and a sixth round grade on Moore, as a situational pass rusher/potential DT conversion project.) Hankins was a good value as was Nassib, but none of the other guys do much for me.

For all I know, Pugh and Moore are hall of famers in waiting, but some guys just aren't your guys, you know?

It's not a terrible draft, but it's like a C+/B- for me. Just "ok".
Ah, I guess I can understand why people don't love Pugh even though he's exactly what the giants look for in OL. But why so low on Moore? He's my favorite pick for us so that really surprises me. His burst, length, strength and body bend are great pieces for our coaching staff to work with and he's already good at getting to the QB.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Ah, I guess I can understand why people don't love Pugh even though he's exactly what the giants look for in OL. But why so low on Moore? He's my favorite pick for us so that really surprises me. His burst, length, strength and body bend are great pieces for our coaching staff to work with and he's already good at getting to the QB.
I thought Moore was a fantastic pickup. I could give a **** about his workouts, he has a nice blend of quickness and looks powerful. Plus, you guys can afford to ease him and let him develop a bit before giving him more plays than he can handle.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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I'm also sold on Pugh, he's like a rich man's version of David Diehl, has great feet, intelligence and drive. He needs to add some strength but I'm not surprised at all JR had a massive boner for him.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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I was kinda refraining from saying this because it was about Ozzie and Reese and I didn't want to seem like I was knocking down the other guy to prop up my guy and I just want you guys to know this has absolutely nothing to do with that but....I have to say I was kind of confused by the thread title because I really don't quite understand the love for the Giants draft. Have Giants fans talking themselves into being pleased with their 1st round pick who was picked a round or two too early or is it at this point is more just about their faith in Reese?
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Combo of both. Pugh is exactly the type of OL Reese loves, quick feet, smart and versatile with some toughness. Big Hank helps our run D woes and DT situation and most of us love Moore and have really high hopes for him with our coaching staff. Add a great value grab in Nassib and some solid late rounders to throw into the TC mess and it's a strong draft from a GM who doest great with his premium picks.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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Combo of both. Pugh is exactly the type of OL Reese loves, quick feet, smart and versatile with some toughness. Big Hank helps our run D woes and DT situation and most of us love Moore and have really high hopes for him with our coaching staff. Add a great value grab in Nassib and some solid late rounders to throw into the TC mess and it's a strong draft from a GM who doest great with his premium picks.
I understand where you're coming from but personally, I just feel like they got 3 3rd round talents with their first three picks. I actually liked what they did with their next 3 picks more than I did with their first three to be honest. Nassibe was obviously a very solid pick where they got him and it wouldn't surprise me if Herman developed into a starting guard one day. Also Cooper Taylor is the type of guy you hope your team takes a flyer on in the later rounds.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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I have not paid attention to this draft all that closely so you know the value better than I do, but Moore was one of the few guys I checked out and really liked for us. And everything I've read about the other two screams giants guys.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:22 AM    (permalink
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I'm not a Hankins fan. Most Giant fans like that pick a lot more than I do. I think spending a 2nd round draft pick on a 2 down run stuffer who offers no pass rush ability is a terrible investment. You don't invest high on 1 dimensional run stuffers. They're not valuable enough to warrant a 2nd round pick.
So when the Steelers took Casey Hampton in round 1 that was a bad pick? Or Vince Wilfork to the Patriots in round 1? "Terrible" investments?

I'm not debating the player, I watched Hankins twice last year and saw him do absolutely nothing on the field, but your philosiphy that one-dimensional run stuffers are terrible investments makes less than no sense to me. NFL teams still run the ball. NFL defenses still need to stop opposing teams from running the ball. It's actually pretty important.

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I have to say I was kind of confused by the thread title because I really don't quite understand the love for the Giants draft. Have Giants fans talking themselves into being pleased with their 1st round pick who was picked a round or two too early or is it at this point is more just about their faith in Reese?
Justin Pugh was not picked a round or two too early. He was going in the first round. It was going to happen. He's a fantastic football player. His tape is on par with the Top 3 OTs in this draft. I've said it before, but if he had 34 inch arms he would have gone in the Top 11. It's not like he was going to be there @ 49. If you think that was going to happen, well, it wasn't.

Aside from the Pugh bashing, I kinda agree with what you are saying.

I look at the Giants draft and I don't immeidately think it's great, or worthy of such a thread title indicating that Reese "did it again." I think the Giants got a good offensive linemen (not sure where he's going to play along the line); a questionable second round pick that seems more of a need pick instead of their usual value pick; Moore and Nassib in the 3rd and 4th rounds both scream of value picks (according to their board). Whatever they get after that, then thats what they get (I don't know any of those players), so I can't really talk about anything more than their first four picks.

Like I mentioned, I think Pugh is going to be a good Pro. His arm length does scare me because I learned from Byran Bulaga that arm length makes a difference. Bulaga is a natural left tackle (that's where he's best), but his short arms have made his NFL career one that is wildly inconsistent. I thought Bulaga was a Top 5 caliber prospect. I liked him a little more than the more physically imposing and physically gifted Russell Okung and Trent Williams because he was such a technician. Pugh is very similar. I don't think he was as dominant as Bulaga was in college, but when I watched Syracuse to see the hype around Nassib, I kept watching the LT play of Pugh. I was ready to call him the second best OT prospect in this class until his arm length came out. His tape is that good. He might not be a LT, if he is, maybe not a great one, but he's going to be a good RT or OG. But he was not getting out of the 1st round.

I can't really comment on Hankins. Haven't seen enough of him, but from the little I have neen I have no idea why there is, or ever was, any hype around his name. This is the 3rd DT in 4 years that they have taken in the 2nd round.

Moore was incredibly overhyped; and I think he started living off the pro prospects that Texas A&M has been producing and will produce in the near future. He is your typical, yearly media driven Top 10 player not to make the first two rounds of the actual draft. It happens every year with nationally recognized schools having productive players at important positions. Moore is a good college player, but he doesn't look explosive off the edge, and he disappears during games. He looked slow off the ball and seemed to have no burst or quickness. I think he went right where he should of, and I don't expect him to become anything more than an average starter (at his peak). Apparently there's work ethic concerns? So the guy plays like a 3rd rounder and has no work ethic... I'm not exactly eager to watch Moore's career unfold.

A lot of fans and New York media members are calling this their best pick of the draft, which is only something that is said a day after the draft is over. In five years we'll look back and know that the best pick in this draft was the best player they picked, which will be Justin Pugh, and no one will care that Moore was good value in round 3 when he turns into a barely average player.

Nassib is only valuable to the Giants if he shows promise in preseason games, or late in the regular season when he takes snaps from Eli after they solidified a playoff spot. If he shows starting potential and teams around the league start offering the Giants a 2nd round pick in return, only then will Nassib be a good pick. If they need him to start... I'd rather have Eli. The only way this pick matters is if Eli goes down for a season ending injury. Considering that I don't think he's going to be a very good pro, I don't much care for a backup QB pick.

I don't particularly like this draft, and I think it's a risky one. I see one future starter in Pugh. And the Giants had a lot of needs going into this draft. This roster is not as talented as most make them out to be. I thought it was a wasted opportunity, but I think the Giants almost need to hit on the picks they made. 2011, 2012 and 2013 have not been very impressive drafts in my opinion, especially beyond the first round.


The Ravens on the other hand? It was a great draft after the first two picks. Arthur Brown is going to be a steal. I thought it would have been a really good pick if they took him @ 32. Matt Elam in the first round was a good pick. Not only did it fill a need, but he's one of my favorite safety prospects I've ever seen. I wouldn't be surprised to see Arthur Brown become the better player, but both of these guys add speed and instincts to this defense. I think both are great picks. I don't know anything about Brandon Williams. They took advantage of really good players "falling".
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:09 AM    (permalink
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So when the Steelers took Casey Hampton in round 1 that was a bad pick? Or Vince Wilfork to the Patriots in round 1? "Terrible" investments?

I'm not debating the player, I watched Hankins twice last year and saw him do absolutely nothing on the field, but your philosiphy that one-dimensional run stuffers are terrible investments makes less than no sense to me. NFL teams still run the ball. NFL defenses still need to stop opposing teams from running the ball. It's actually pretty important.


Justin Pugh was not picked a round or two too early. He was going in the first round. It was going to happen. He's a fantastic football player. His tape is on par with the Top 3 OTs in this draft. I've said it before, but if he had 34 inch arms he would have gone in the Top 11. It's not like he was going to be there @ 49. If you think that was going to happen, well, it wasn't.

Aside from the Pugh bashing, I kinda agree with what you are saying.

I look at the Giants draft and I don't immeidately think it's great, or worthy of such a thread title indicating that Reese "did it again." I think the Giants got a good offensive linemen (not sure where he's going to play along the line); a questionable second round pick that seems more of a need pick instead of their usual value pick; Moore and Nassib in the 3rd and 4th rounds both scream of value picks (according to their board). Whatever they get after that, then thats what they get (I don't know any of those players), so I can't really talk about anything more than their first four picks.

Like I mentioned, I think Pugh is going to be a good Pro. His arm length does scare me because I learned from Byran Bulaga that arm length makes a difference. Bulaga is a natural left tackle (that's where he's best), but his short arms have made his NFL career one that is wildly inconsistent. I thought Bulaga was a Top 5 caliber prospect. I liked him a little more than the more physically imposing and physically gifted Russell Okung and Trent Williams because he was such a technician. Pugh is very similar. I don't think he was as dominant as Bulaga was in college, but when I watched Syracuse to see the hype around Nassib, I kept watching the LT play of Pugh. I was ready to call him the second best OT prospect in this class until his arm length came out. His tape is that good. He might not be a LT, if he is, maybe not a great one, but he's going to be a good RT or OG. But he was not getting out of the 1st round.

I can't really comment on Hankins. Haven't seen enough of him, but from the little I have neen I have no idea why there is, or ever was, any hype around his name. This is the 3rd DT in 4 years that they have taken in the 2nd round.

Moore was incredibly overhyped; and I think he started living off the pro prospects that Texas A&M has been producing and will produce in the near future. He is your typical, yearly media driven Top 10 player not to make the first two rounds of the actual draft. It happens every year with nationally recognized schools having productive players at important positions. Moore is a good college player, but he doesn't look explosive off the edge, and he disappears during games. He looked slow off the ball and seemed to have no burst or quickness. I think he went right where he should of, and I don't expect him to become anything more than an average starter (at his peak). Apparently there's work ethic concerns? So the guy plays like a 3rd rounder and has no work ethic... I'm not exactly eager to watch Moore's career unfold.

A lot of fans and New York media members are calling this their best pick of the draft, which is only something that is said a day after the draft is over. In five years we'll look back and know that the best pick in this draft was the best player they picked, which will be Justin Pugh, and no one will care that Moore was good value in round 3 when he turns into a barely average player.

Nassib is only valuable to the Giants if he shows promise in preseason games, or late in the regular season when he takes snaps from Eli after they solidified a playoff spot. If he shows starting potential and teams around the league start offering the Giants a 2nd round pick in return, only then will Nassib be a good pick. If they need him to start... I'd rather have Eli. The only way this pick matters is if Eli goes down for a season ending injury. Considering that I don't think he's going to be a very good pro, I don't much care for a backup QB pick.

I don't particularly like this draft, and I think it's a risky one. I see one future starter in Pugh. And the Giants had a lot of needs going into this draft. This roster is not as talented as most make them out to be. I thought it was a wasted opportunity, but I think the Giants almost need to hit on the picks they made. 2011, 2012 and 2013 have not been very impressive drafts in my opinion, especially beyond the first round.


The Ravens on the other hand? It was a great draft after the first two picks. Arthur Brown is going to be a steal. I thought it would have been a really good pick if they took him @ 32. Matt Elam in the first round was a good pick. Not only did it fill a need, but he's one of my favorite safety prospects I've ever seen. I wouldn't be surprised to see Arthur Brown become the better player, but both of these guys add speed and instincts to this defense. I think both are great picks. I don't know anything about Brandon Williams. They took advantage of really good players "falling".
Pittsburgh and NE at the time they drafted Wilfork both ran 3-4 defenses. Those anchors in the middle were critical to the scheme. That's why they were warranted.

We on the other hand, run a 4-3 where the NT is not so critical. Look at every team that took run stuffers high, they all ran 3-4 defenses. You never see 4-3 defenses invest too highly in nose tackles bc the value just isn't there. Some 4-3 schemes don't even have a NT. It's not a valuable position to the scheme.

Nassib is valuable if he's the backup qb, that's all he has to be to have worth. I've said this before, backup quarterbacks are grossly overpaid. The average backup is making 2 million dollars a year. That's terrible allocation of resources. Why would you pay 2 million a year to a guy who's gonna hold a clipboard all season? It's stupid. If Nassib sticks, we have a backup qb who makes around 300k a year for the next 4 years. That's an average savings of 1.7 million dollars a year that can be used on a player who can actually help the team. So I view it as a money move to be honest. And what did they lose? A 4th round pick? Big deal. The resource was worth the investment.

I personally would never have a veteran backup qb. It's ridiculously overrated. They suck first of all, that's why they're veteran backups to begin with, plus they cost way too much to keep. So I view the Nassib pick as a great pick, bc of how we can allocate the resource, plus I think he has a lot of potential and upgrades the position.

Moore, I honestly didn't study him before the draft bc I never thought he'd be on our radar. But after I saw him, honestly I saw a pretty good player. He lacks elite chase speed, but he has great get off, a good punch, incredibly long arms, he reminds me of a poor man's Ware, he can bend which is an underrated trait for pass rushers, he can change direction well, he can play both sides of the line, he can long arm, rush inside and outside. He's very versatile, I can see him line up at DT in Nascar and do a good job rushing inside with his long arm, I think he's a damn good player.

His issues are setting the edge, developing his change up further, and that's pretty much it. Both very correctable flaws. He's never going to be Dwight Freeney off the edge but that's not his game. He's quick off the line and uses his length to win. He wins early or he doesn't win. He won't win late.

His average chase speed is made up by his long arms. I really think we got a good player there.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:16 AM    (permalink
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If Hankins, say, theoretically, turns into a Wilfork or Hampton type of player, or even 80% of that type of player, then that will vastly improve the Giants defense because it will free up smaller LBs behind the defensive line to make plays, and it will reduce pressure on the DEs to play the run flawlessly.

Typically, you *don't* want to spend a high pick or premium money on a player whose impact is primarily on running downs, but a great run-stuffing DT is the most valuable of these because his presence can improve the quality of both the LBers and the DEs, and additionally free up the 3-technique DT to play the pass more recklessly.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:27 AM    (permalink
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The Vikings got three first round picks at three huge need areas. So that was neat.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:27 AM    (permalink
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I understand that, but I just feel the impact of a NT has been reduced in today's game. Even most 3-4 defenses don't have your traditional anchor NT anymore. They all 1 gap with penetrating DLmen.

You want to rush the passer on all 3 downs now. I rather give up 150 yards on the ground than 350 in the air. That's just how the game is now.

And to mitigate the loss of the NT in your base defense, simply get LBs who can slip blocks. Problem solved. If you have a DL who can penetrate and rush all the time and LBs behind them who can slip blocks and make tackles, then you don't need a NT.

I just don't value NTs anymore. Especially in an even front. It's a personal preference of mine, so I'm not a fan of the pick. I understand it, but I don't agree with it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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I understand that, but I just feel the impact of a NT has been reduced in today's game. Even most 3-4 defenses don't have your traditional anchor NT anymore. They all 1 gap with penetrating DLmen.

You want to rush the passer on all 3 downs now. I rather give up 150 yards on the ground than 350 in the air. That's just how the game is now.

And to mitigate the loss of the NT in your base defense, simply get LBs who can slip blocks. Problem solved. If you have a DL who can penetrate and rush all the time and LBs behind them who can slip blocks and make tackles, then you don't need a NT.

I just don't value NTs anymore. Especially in an even front. It's a personal preference of mine, so I'm not a fan of the pick. I understand it, but I don't agree with it.
Who would you rather have had at that pick in the 2nd round? Another DT? Which one?
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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Who would you rather have had at that pick in the 2nd round? Another DT? Which one?
I would have took Arthur Brown. We're desperate for LB help and I think Brown can play 3 downs, and improve our run defense just as much if not more than Hankins would, while also providing value in the pass game.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
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I would have took Arthur Brown. We're desperate for LB help and I think Brown can play 3 downs, and improve our run defense just as much if not more than Hankins would, while also providing value in the pass game.
No LB can improve the run defense as much as a good run-stuffing DT.

And if you're confident that Brown can be a completely 3-down player who excels in pass coverage (I'm not so sure), then you have something, but if can't play the pass, even if he can play the run well... then he's actually worse than Hankins as a prospect, imho.

I like Brown, but I don't see the special instincts in the passing game that you see in coverage LBers. He could be good at it, but it's not obvious to me. Great run player, obviously.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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No LB can improve the run defense as much as a good run-stuffing DT.

And if you're confident that Brown can be a completely 3-down player who excels in pass coverage (I'm not so sure), then you have something, but if can't play the pass, even if he can play the run well... then he's actually worse than Hankins as a prospect, imho.

I like Brown, but I don't see the special instincts in the passing game that you see in coverage LBers. He could be good at it, but it's not obvious to me. Great run player, obviously.
I understand that. It's a difference of opinion. I personally love Brown and think he can do it all, so I see more value there bc I see a 3 down player who helps me both in the run and pass game.

Whereas I see Hankins as a 1 dimensional run stuffer with stamina issues, who can only play 2 downs, provide no pass rush and is useless on 3rd down, and has to be subbed out often bc of his stamina. A guy who can't play with regularity vs no huddle offenses bc of his stamina issues and lack of pass rush. I don't see value taking this guy in the 2nd round.

With the way teams pass now, and with how the no huddle and up tempo offenses are gathering steam, you need guys who are 3 down players, versatile, and can play the pass first and foremost and the run second. This guy is the dodobird of NFL evolution. He's gonna be extinct bc his value is dimenishing by the day.

My personal presence is 4 DLmen who can rush the passer. I want 300 lb DTs who are athletic that can shoot the gap and rush. Long limbed 270 lb DEs who can set the edge with their length and bend and rush wide stretching the OL horizontally to create space for interior rushers to Iso on a Guard and beat them in space with their speed.

I want athletic LBs who can slip blocks and make sound tackles in the run game and have the speed to defend the pass and the middle of the field. And my SAM is a joker who can rush the passer and set the edge in the run game when we go in an Under or Over front.

And I want CBs who can bump and run down the field, a FS who can take away the deepball, and a SS who can be an enforcer in the box.

That's my preference on defense. I think in today's game, that's what you want on defense.

So to sum it up, an ideal defense to me is Seattle's secondary (the way they're built), with Detroit's DL (add another long limbed DE on the other side), and SF's ILBs with a Joker SAM.

Of course that's a perfect world but I'm trying to give you a visual of the style of players I want on defense.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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To give you a realistic defense based on some of the prospects we have available here and some cheap veterans, I'll use Oakland as my "team" and give you this as a defense I'd be comfortable with:

LE: DeMontre Moore
DT: Lamar Houston
DT: Jordan Hill
RE: Tank Carradine

MIKE: Stewart Bradley
WILL: Arthur Brown
SAM: James Harrison

SS: Will Hill
FS: Kenny Phillips

CB: Jamar Taylor
CB: Alfonso Dennard

What I tried doing with this "defense" is use affordable FAs available the past 2 years, along with draft picks that may have been available with maneuvering for the Raiders in the draft. I also kept one of their players in Lamar Houston.

*shrug*

I tried to mix and match the best I could while trying to make it realistic.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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The Vikings got three first round picks at three huge need areas. So that was neat.
We're both obviously biased as Vikings fans, but I can't believe Spielman hasn't been mentioned here. After what he did last year in the draft, and then again this year, I don't see how he couldn't be mentioned among at least the top 10 GMs in football.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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But why so low on Moore? He's my favorite pick for us so that really surprises me. His burst, length, strength and body bend are great pieces for our coaching staff to work with and he's already good at getting to the QB.
To me, he's a tweener in all the wrong ways. He's the size of an LB and he moves like a DE (or a DT at times.) It's not just that he's not fast, it's that he plays slow (he doesn't glide, he stomps.) He'll get pressures based on tenacity, and his hands are violent, but I don't think he can straight up "beat" NFL tackles. So most of the time he's on the field he'll just tie up a single blocker and accomplish little.

His best position is, probably, to try to add 20 lbs or so and be an inside pass rusher from the nickel.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but he's just not a guy I like on tape.

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Old 04-29-2013, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Spielman has done a bang-up job for the Vikings. I am a Vikings hater (since I grew up near the area and was basically "forced" to try and be a fan) but you cannot deny how well he has done. I don't think Rhodes is the best fit for their Tampa 2 (and am angry because he was the Broncos #1 guy) but they did a great job getting value in the draft and REALLY like that they got Hodges and Mauti.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Tom Telesco in San Diego in his first draft as GM.

DJ Fluker
Manti Te'o
Keenan Allen

Impressive.

And I'm disappointed that Ted Thompson isn't mentioned here. He lives for the draft.
HORRIBLE strategy. Fluker will never be a LT, but was taken in LT territory. Teo? I could not believe this pick! You all traded UP to get this average MLB?? As many have pointed out, a NFL caliber 3-4 MLB has to be able to a) take on guard head on and defeat blocks and b) blitz successfully. Teo does neither particularly well. Allen concerns me apart from the injury. There is far too much film of him being chased down.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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Lavonte David... people said everything you said about Brown about David. All he did was ball out in the NFL. Guys a monster.
Not really, Davis was a WILL.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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HORRIBLE strategy. Fluker will never be a LT, but was taken in LT territory. Teo? I could not believe this pick! You all traded UP to get this average MLB?? As many have pointed out, a NFL caliber 3-4 MLB has to be able to a) take on guard head on and defeat blocks and b) blitz successfully. Teo does neither particularly well. Allen concerns me apart from the injury. There is far too much film of him being chased down.
I agree with this.

Fluker is a great run-blocking RT, but mediocre as a pass blocker. I don't see anything really special there, and he can basically only play RT or G. No value in the first round for this kind of player. Strictly a need-based reach, as one of the DTs or FS would have been a better pick at that point.

Teo could be a solid MLB or ILB in the NFL, and nothing more. He has no special athleticism. He has good instincts, but he's going to have to rely completely on them.

The rest of their draft is pretty "meh" as well.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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Pittsburgh and NE at the time they drafted Wilfork both ran 3-4 defenses. Those anchors in the middle were critical to the scheme. That's why they were warranted.

We on the other hand, run a 4-3 where the NT is not so critical. Look at every team that took run stuffers high, they all ran 3-4 defenses. You never see 4-3 defenses invest too highly in nose tackles bc the value just isn't there. Some 4-3 schemes don't even have a NT. It's not a valuable position to the scheme. I think even you would agree that it would be worth it. I'll admit that it is risky because if he isn't a great run stuffer, then you have a worthless player that can't stop the run or get to the QB.

Nassib is valuable if he's the backup qb, that's all he has to be to have worth. I've said this before, backup quarterbacks are grossly overpaid. The average backup is making 2 million dollars a year. That's terrible allocation of resources. Why would you pay 2 million a year to a guy who's gonna hold a clipboard all season? It's stupid. If Nassib sticks, we have a backup qb who makes around 300k a year for the next 4 years. That's an average savings of 1.7 million dollars a year that can be used on a player who can actually help the team. So I view it as a money move to be honest. And what did they lose? A 4th round pick? Big deal. The resource was worth the investment.

I personally would never have a veteran backup qb. It's ridiculously overrated. They suck first of all, that's why they're veteran backups to begin with, plus they cost way too much to keep. So I view the Nassib pick as a great pick, bc of how we can allocate the resource, plus I think he has a lot of potential and upgrades the position.

Moore, I honestly didn't study him before the draft bc I never thought he'd be on our radar. But after I saw him, honestly I saw a pretty good player. He lacks elite chase speed, but he has great get off, a good punch, incredibly long arms, he reminds me of a poor man's Ware, he can bend which is an underrated trait for pass rushers, he can change direction well, he can play both sides of the line, he can long arm, rush inside and outside. He's very versatile, I can see him line up at DT in Nascar and do a good job rushing inside with his long arm, I think he's a damn good player.

His issues are setting the edge, developing his change up further, and that's pretty much it. Both very correctable flaws. He's never going to be Dwight Freeney off the edge but that's not his game. He's quick off the line and uses his length to win. He wins early or he doesn't win. He won't win late.

His average chase speed is made up by his long arms. I really think we got a good player there.
Those are two notable players that have made a career being little more than two down players. Casey Hampton more so than Wilfork, but I think a DT that can shut down the run, mainly with his presence alone, is a valuable commodity. Ngata had very limited pass rush ability when he entered. If Hankins comes in and turns your run defense from a Top 25 defense to a Top 10 run defense, then is it worth it?

And just to clarify, I have no problem with the Nassib pick. I just don't put much stock into it. Firstly, I don't think he's a starter. He's a backup. So I think we're talking about backup QB in round 4. There isn't much to talk about. But if he's starting for the Giants, then it's a bad sign. He's the type of pick that you never want to see play valuable minutes.


Demontre Moore's biggest issue is that he won at the college level due to length and hustle. He has no pass rushing technique at all. And he's going to struggle to run the arc against NFL tackles. In games against Alabama and Oklahoma, when he was matched up against future NFL players, he did next to nothing. And he rarely 'beat' those guys. If he made plays, they were hustle plays on broken offenses plays. That, to me, was the most glaring tape.

But hearing that his own coaches wouldn't even give NFL coaches and GMs positive reviews of him makes his lack of technique understandable, and fairly alarming. Because poor work ethic would never cross your mind just from watching the tape (he has a really good motor). He has talent, but his physical tools were, at one point, grossly overrated. I get the feeling that a lot of fans might think they are getting Top 10 talent in the 3rd round. More like a second round talent with potential. The word 'potential' does not go well with 'poor work ethic'. Like I said, it might be a value pick, it's risky. Especially considering that they took a two down run stuffing DT in the previous round an OT in round 1 that might have to change positions at the next level. This is a risky draft. Justin Pugh has to become a quality starter somewhere on the offensive line. If he turns into a disappointment, then this draft is riding on Moore and Hankins.
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