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Old 04-28-2013, 09:15 AM    (permalink
bucfan12
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We failed to demonstrate ANY kind of pass rush in multiple games last season (Denver, Giants, to name a couple). We do NEED a pass rusher next to McCoy otherwise there will be no reason to double team anybody, including McCoy. Double teams are reserved for players that cause havoc... and if like in the Giants and Broncos games, our front four is causing ZERO havoc, there will be no reason to double anybody.
That's what the job of the NT is for in our defense. To take on those double teams. That was how it was in the past with Warren Sapp. Cullpepper took on the double teams while sapp and the DEs wreeked havoc. Spence, Gibson and Landri can do that.

Gholston is a versatile Lineman who can kick inside on nickel situations.

You also have to take into consideration: You invested highly in Bowers and Clayborn. Clayborn showed a lot of talent his rookie year. 7.5 sacks in a year where our dline was injured and beat down inside. He can be that 10 sack+ guy.

Bowers potential is through the roof as well. He needs to stay healthy. McCoy is already a top 3 DT in this league. He needs that push on the outside to collapse the Pocket.

EDIT: You have to consider, you're not giving these guys time to develop. Lineman take a while to put it together and not all guys come in and have 12-15 sack seasons immediately. Chris Long is a perfect example of a guy who struggled years 1 and 2 and got a lot better ever since.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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That's what the job of the NT is for in our defense. To take on those double teams. That was how it was in the past with Warren Sapp. Cullpepper took on the double teams while sapp and the DEs wreeked havoc. Spence, Gibson and Landri can do that.

Gholston is a versatile Lineman who can kick inside on nickel situations.

You also have to take into consideration: You invested highly in Bowers and Clayborn. Clayborn showed a lot of talent his rookie year. 7.5 sacks in a year where our dline was injured and beat down inside. He can be that 10 sack+ guy.

Bowers potential is through the roof as well. He needs to stay healthy. McCoy is already a top 3 DT in this league. He needs that push on the outside to collapse the Pocket.

EDIT: You have to consider, you're not giving these guys time to develop. Lineman take a while to put it together and not all guys come in and have 12-15 sack seasons immediately. Chris Long is a perfect example of a guy who struggled years 1 and 2 and got a lot better ever since.
I think you're confusing pass rushing with run stuffing. Our NTs rarely get double teamed on pass rush, mostly on running plays.

It's not that I'm not giving them time to develop, but as Lord Schiano has already said, we need competition at every position. There's no guarantee Clayborn will be healthy, and there's no guarantee Bowers will ever stay healthy. Bringing in legit young players with starter potential only makes sense.

And please, don't compare Landri, Gibson, or Spence to Culpepper... and definitely not Booger McFarland. Culpepper had an entire season that nearly matched the career NFL production of all three of those guys. BTW, both Culpepper and McFarland were ultra-quick (Culpepper played at 277 to maximize speed, McFarland ran 4.80). None of these three guys possess the kind of quickness needed to shoot the gap consistently and scare opposing offenses.
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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I think you're confusing pass rushing with run stuffing. Our NTs rarely get double teamed on pass rush, mostly on running plays.

It's not that I'm not giving them time to develop, but as Lord Schiano has already said, we need competition at every position. There's no guarantee Clayborn will be healthy, and there's no guarantee Bowers will ever stay healthy. Bringing in legit young players with starter potential only makes sense.

And please, don't compare Landri, Gibson, or Spence to Culpepper... and definitely not Booger McFarland. Culpepper had an entire season that nearly matched the career NFL production of all three of those guys. BTW, both Culpepper and McFarland were ultra-quick (Culpepper played at 277 to maximize speed, McFarland ran 4.80). None of these three guys possess the kind of quickness needed to shoot the gap consistently and scare opposing offenses.

Um, I think SPence has that potential and upside to start. He's got that quickness inside. Has he been productive in the sack department? No. But he's got that potential.

You can move Gholston inside on passing downs as well.

You keep bringing up 40 times. It's absolutely a joke for Dlineman. How fast are they in that 10 yard sprint? How's there short burst? These guys aren't running 40 yards down the field every time.

Joe Hayden, a CB, ran a 4.7 40. He's a top 10 CB in this league.

Illinois had talent, but there coaching was awful and development.

We still have a young dline and you forget what Schiano likes to do. He likes to bring pressure from his LB. That is why the Safety position and physical press CBs are important. That's why Revis and Banks and Wright, guys who can play man coverage, are here. Gholston can rush the passer inside. Big guy, 286LBs.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Since we are discussing 40's another guy I'm upset we passed on was D Moore from TAMU. He was still available in the 3rd round and we draft a luxery pick. I know I heard he had bad interviews at the combine as well as a slow 40 but the kid can still play ball.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Since we are discussing 40's another guy I'm upset we passed on was D Moore from TAMU. He was still available in the 3rd round and we draft a luxery pick. I know I heard he had bad interviews at the combine as well as a slow 40 but the kid can still play ball.
It wasnt just the slow 40 time and interviews, but many question his dedication to the sport and said his preperation skills were poor, even training for the combine. We all know what happened with Tanard Jackson and Dez Briscoe when they werent;' showing for OTAs and offseason workouts.
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Old 04-28-2013, 04:16 PM    (permalink
brasho
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Um, I think SPence has that potential and upside to start. He's got that quickness inside. Has he been productive in the sack department? No. But he's got that potential.

You can move Gholston inside on passing downs as well.

You keep bringing up 40 times. It's absolutely a joke for Dlineman. How fast are they in that 10 yard sprint? How's there short burst? These guys aren't running 40 yards down the field every time.

Joe Hayden, a CB, ran a 4.7 40. He's a top 10 CB in this league.

Illinois had talent, but there coaching was awful and development.

We still have a young dline and you forget what Schiano likes to do. He likes to bring pressure from his LB. That is why the Safety position and physical press CBs are important. That's why Revis and Banks and Wright, guys who can play man coverage, are here. Gholston can rush the passer inside. Big guy, 286LBs.
First off, the 40 shows athleticism and burst. No, most Dlinemen do not run 40 yards on defense.... they do on special teams though. The 40 yard time was the generally agreed upon time but football minds, the perfect distance to gauge a player's straight ahead speed, explosion, and possible value on special teams. Don't argue with me about it, argue with NFL GMs, coaches, the NFL Combine, and just about anybody else that uses it as an evaluation tool.

Before you go and talk about how UNIMPORTANT 40 yard dash times are overvalued, think of all the supposedly great players that ran poorly and didn't pan out in the NFL. Peter Warrick ran in the 4.6's, wouldn't have been a big deal if he were a big possession WR like Cris Carter, but he wasn't, he couldn't get separation and washed out. Glenn Dorsey was supposed to be the next Warren Sapp (he of the 4.7 40 time) but ran a 5.28 at his Pro Day. I declared he wasn't nearly explosive enough for a one-gap penetrating DT...and I was right.... the SEC's Bob Sanders (he of the 4.35), Ahmad Black ran a 4.78... he's been so good that the Bucs went out and spent $8 mil a year rather than hand the reigns over to him.

There have been numerous players that didn't have great college careers due to misuse, bad coaching, or playing out of position that turned in great 40 times and got their names on the radar (Adalius Thomas ran 4.57 and got himself drafted in the 6th round, Geno Atkins ran 4.75 and elevated himself to a 2nd round pick and now an All-Pro, Jamal Lewis unexpectedly ran 4.4 intead of the 4.6 all were expecting and he became a top 10 pick and 2000 yard rusher, Chris Johnson got himself drafted in the 1st round due to his all-time electronic best time, Keith Bullock put himself on the radar after blistering a great 40 then had an excellent career). The 40 yard dash is a great tool, if it weren't not only would the prospects not run it, but the scouts wouldn't bother timing it or recording the times.

Don't sit there and try to lecture me for me knowing the 40 time is an important tool. I know it is, I know the scouts use it, I know the greatest coaches and scouts of all time use it as part of the evaluation, on everybody.. including offensive linemen who NEVER run 40 yards in a straight line. It shows athleticism. I know for the DL the 10 yard time is more important, the VJ is very important as well, but the 10 yard times are usually not reliable so the 40 yard time is the universally accepted standard. I don't care if you don't accept it, don't. Watch tape... I watch as much as the next person, and no, I can't tell on tape of the trenches which DT runs the best 40, but I can tell you has better get off... and I can say for sure that Hicks doesn't have great get off... nobody has seen it but you... and the 40 time reflects exactly that. Bobby Beathard, Gil Brandt, and Al Davis were huge proponents of the stop watch. Teams under their watch won close to 10 Super Bowls. Jeff Fisher is, and always has been, a huge measurables guy.

As for what we KNOW Schiano wants to do... we know he wants to pressure the QB. Anybody that knows football knows that a team would rather pressure the QB with the front 4 than by weakening the pass defense and blitzing. Blitzing was a necessity last season BECAUSE we couldn't rush the passer. McCoy isn't a pass rushing juggernaut, Clayborn has 7.5 sacks in 20 career games and is definitely more of an effort guy than guy that can turn the corner, no NT on our roster can even push the pocket, Bowers has potential but we don't know if he can do it consistently. Bennett was an effort guy. The team blitzed out of necessity.

As for Haden.. you couldn't be more wrong, he was electronically timed at 4.52. The knock on him was that his speed wasn't elite, not that he ran a 4.7 which would prevent him from getting drafted in the first 3 rounds. http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...10&genpos= CB Haden then turned around and ran 4.42 at his Pro Day.

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Old 04-28-2013, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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Jay Ratliff 4.85-had an unproductive college career-his 40 got him drafted in the 7th round
Kevin Wiliams 4.81
Geno Atkins 4.75
Tommie Harris 4.78
Warren Sapp 4.71
Booger McFarland 4.85

Just a couple of DTs 40 times from the past few years. Perhaps you have heard of them? What two things do all but Booger have in common? Fast 40's and great production.
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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What happened to Tommie Harris... Guy was a beast for three seasons then fell off the map
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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Geez Brasho, you know so much, why aren't you the GM of this ball club?
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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40 time is a useful tool, but it is far from the be all, end all of D-Lineman. I'm so much more interested in a guys ten yard split and agility if he is going to be playing on the interior line.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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What happened to Tommie Harris... Guy was a beast for three seasons then fell off the map
Injuries derailed his career, knee and hamstrings, his last season was with the chargers and I think they cut him after 2011.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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So who all had any gripes about this past weekend? I have a few.

1. I think we got a steal for Darrell Revis and that should be factored into our draft weekend because he is better than any CB in the draft right now.

2. That being said, even if he comes back 100% he can not cover a WR for 5-6 seconds consistently. WE NEED PASS RUSH HELP! I like Banks but I do not believe currently on our roster we have anyone to compliment all these power/bull rush DE's on our team. Sean Payton coming back to NO this season, who swept us last season, predicates his offense on quick timing routes. We need at least one if not two quick twitch pass rushers to compliment our guys. I love the rebuilding we did to our secondary but my goodness it doesn't do any good to if QBs can sit in the pocket like a statue. All I can hope is more bodies can help keep the guys in the trenches fresh.

3. I know TE isn't a big role in our offense but I can not believe we didn't address this issue at some point and time during the draft in the later rounds. A guy who I think would have fit was Fauria from UCLA. A big body to help in the red zone. If an old Dallas Clark, who still has pretty good hands, was targeted 76 times but only has 4 TDs think of what a younger bigger body can do.

That being said I hope we can bring a Veteran to help us at DE to be a pass rush specialist but knowing Dom he only uses his guys he brings in through the draft. Also I know Doug Martin is young but I don't want to run the poor kid into the ground. With the trading of Blount, who wasn't a Schiano guy either, I hope we can get a decent UFA RB to help with some carries.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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40 time is a useful tool, but it is far from the be all, end all of D-Lineman. I'm so much more interested in a guys ten yard split and agility if he is going to be playing on the interior line.
It definitely is not.. but it is a usefu tool. As I stated before, the 10 yard split is far more important for DL, but also something that there are few accurate measurements for the public.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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Geez Brasho, you know so much, why aren't you the GM of this ball club?
I can pretty much guarantee I would have done a far better job evaluating and selecting talent than Allen and Gruden did. I'm still wondering who the hell Lance Nimmo is and why we spent a 4th round pick on him....and Austin King... and why, in the same draft we got Marquise Walker, Travis Stephens, and other roster garbage.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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I can pretty much guarantee I would have done a far better job evaluating and selecting talent than Allen and Gruden did. I'm still wondering who the hell Lance Nimmo is and why we spent a 4th round pick on him....and Austin King... and why, in the same draft we got Marquise Walker, Travis Stephens, and other roster garbage.
Gawd Allen was pure GARBAGE this is the same guy that brought in Tim Allen and Charlie Garner way past their prime also. That crap was painful. Jeff Garcia was decent but he was also past his prime.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Went back and watched some film on some prospects. Made me more excited about our draft than before.

Need to go back and look at more Jon Banks, but he seems legit. Plays faster than he times, plus his length makes up for any speed he does lack. I dont see it being a problem in the pros, especially considering he'll be going up against #2s. Need to watch more film, but I'm excited about the potential of our secondary. It'll easily be top 3 in the league if everyone lives up to expectations.

Haven't watched Spence or Gholston yet. Two players who are lacking the great combine numbers, but have great size and strength. They should help keep our rush D at the top of the league. Need to see watch some film but seems like the type of players that can be much better pro's than collegians with good coaching.

As a fan of the U, I love the Mike James pick. Good speed for his size. Never got a chance to shine really because of playing with NFL starting caliber RBs his entire career. IMO he'll be an improvement over DJ Ware as a #2/3rd down back. He won't be Alfred Morris, but could be a Chester Taylor type back.

I think Means is going to stick as a rotation player for us. I actually think he has more potential than Gholston. There's not much film to go off of, but it looks like he plays faster than he timed. He has a couple moves already too, his dip and spin seem pretty good. Seems like a pretty instinctive player too, made some good plays against the run and had a few PDs including one he intercepted for a TD. Showed some impressive closing burst too, like on this sack:
http://youtu.be/0GuCT1N8NLo?t=47s


My cousin's BF brother is Shad Thornton, who was a freshman last year and lead the team in scoring. I shooud get in touch with him and get some inside info on Glennon hah. I wasn't a fan of the pick at the time, I wanted some help on the dline but it seemed like we had some targets later in the draft which let us take Glennon early. After looking more into him, I have to say I'm interested to see what he can do behind our above average line and with some legit weapons. He seems like a perfect fit for our offense.

Tennessee allowed 3 sacks a game, which was in the bottom 13 in the nation out of 115 teams. Their rushing game was in the bottom 12 in the nation. Pretty safe to say he was playing with a well below average offensive line. His three worse games last year accounted for 10 of his 17 interceptions. 12 of his 17 interceptions came when he was trailing. It doesnt seem like his accuracy is a problem, rather his decision making when pressured and/or playing from behind. That seems like an issue that'll be easier to fix than a player with poor accuracy.

People say he sounds like Freeman because of the big arm and interception numbers, but I think it's a lazy comparison. So much of a QB is past the physical standpoint and more mental. A problem Freeman still has is being timid at times with passes. I saw Glennon throw receivers open a few times in the game films I watched, an underrated aspect in a QBs game IMO. Although he has a big arm, Freemans also been criticized for lofting some of his deeper passes. Seems very good on sideline passes. We all know he has a strong arm, I saw him air it out for over 60 yards, and 50+ yards for TDs a few times rolling out and on the run. A lot of big plays in '11 came from hitting TJ Graham and stride and letting his speed get some long TDs.

From the NC game last year, out of 14 incompletitions, 7 were clearly not his fault, including one interceptions that the WR let bounce right off his chest. A couple other passes had to be thrown away due to poor blocking and no time. A few passes wouldve been completions if he it was VJ or Mike Will catching. I didnt see any passes wildly off target which is encouraging.

Seems like a smart QB from that game, going through progressions and looking off safeties. This TD looks like an easy play at first, but he actually draws in the safety off his assignment and goes back to his first option for an open TD
http://youtu.be/URoXVwlayj8?t=1m40s

Not saying he's our savior or a sure thing by any means, but in CFB you have to look past the numbers. Dont say he's inaccurate without watching some tape. With more talent around him, I'd say he could've easily been around the 65% completion mark in college. The franchise QB potential is there in my opinion.

I would've liked us to add a slot wideout or TE with some potential, but I guess the staff feels satisfied with the Ogletree/Smith/Crabtree signings to fill those wholes. All in all, solid draft and I don't think anyone can say we didn't get better this off season.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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Two more signings and our team is set. Sedrick Ellis to me is a must. First off the guy is 27 years old so he has some years left in the tank. Also he can be our starting NT. With the starting 4 looking like Clayborn, Ellis, McCoy and Bowers.

Second signing John Abraham or Dwight Freeney. We need to get to the QB both of these players have shown they can do that... very well. Also Clayborn and Bowers have had major injuries last season so banking on them to play 16 games would not be a smart move.

The second unit could be Freeney, William Gholston, Akeem Spence and Steven Means.

I think Gholston could kick inside in a pinch. But having 8 Dlinemen to me on the roster is a must. Keep them fresh for a whole game, injuries etc... Our starters played the most snaps out of anyone in the league last year. That's not good. Why do you think we can't get to Nick Floes on the last drive of the game? When your 300 pounders have played 60 out of 65 snaps theirs not much left in the legs. We play in Florida. We need Dline depth.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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Two more signings and our team is set. Sedrick Ellis to me is a must. First off the guy is 27 years old so he has some years left in the tank. Also he can be our starting NT. With the starting 4 looking like Clayborn, Ellis, McCoy and Bowers.

Second signing John Abraham or Dwight Freeney. We need to get to the QB both of these players have shown they can do that... very well. Also Clayborn and Bowers have had major injuries last season so banking on them to play 16 games would not be a smart move.

The second unit could be Freeney, William Gholston, Akeem Spence and Steven Means.

I think Gholston could kick inside in a pinch. But having 8 Dlinemen to me on the roster is a must. Keep them fresh for a whole game, injuries etc... Our starters played the most snaps out of anyone in the league last year. That's not good. Why do you think we can't get to Nick Floes on the last drive of the game? When your 300 pounders have played 60 out of 65 snaps theirs not much left in the legs. We play in Florida. We need Dline depth.
I'm no board with Ellis. I find it odd, however, that the team brought in NO oher competition in the form of UDFAs. As a matter of fact, they kind of skipped over DE, DT, and LB but really loaded up on CBs if that doesn't show how much they desire to add depth to a certain position.

It makes you wonder, do they have faith in guys already on the roster in taking the next step?

Teo-Neisheim got better as the season wore on. He made some plays. he had a decent tender offer. Aaron Morgan looked good running the arc a few times before he went down. Do they feel like these two are keepers? Gholston and Means might be the top reserves, then again, the other two guys have already made the team once and showed they CAN play. I do like Gholston as a swing guy. He reminds me a little bit of Marcus Jones. Of course I think I said the same thing about Kyle Moore once.

At DT, they have bodies like Corey Irvin and others, have an athlete in Matt Masfilio, do they think he can step up this season?

LB is another story altogether. We really added nothing to the LB corps. The rookie FA from Buffalo is strictly camp fodder so we basically added Casillas to the mix and lost Black. Do they think Watson, Goode, and ohers are ready?
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Why down on Ellis? Not saying he can come here and be a pro bowler. But I think if we sign him now he'd become our second best DT behind McCoy. The guy played good ball in spots while with NO
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Why down on Ellis? Not saying he can come here and be a pro bowler. But I think if we sign him now he'd become our second best DT behind McCoy. The guy played good ball in spots while with NO
Hmmm, I think I mistyped. I said "I'm no board with Ellis..." should've said "ON board".. I transversed the O and N and when it quickly scanned it to see it didn't look like a 2nd grader wrote it, I saw that "no" was a word and left it.

I'm ON board with Ellis. Sorry to waste your time with my typo... all for it... I'm good... yes...let's do it. Sorry about that :)
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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The more I watch from Mike Glennon, the more I see a potential starter down the line. Some spotted "inconsistent accuracy" that translated from 2011 to 2012. I saw More drops on catchable balls to WRs, who were inexperienced as well.

He does a nice job with his eyes, moves defenders with them, looks them off and can go through progressions much better than I've seen with Freeman coming out as a prospect.

Many love his football IQ. If he picks up the offense quickly, he could be a threat to play this year if Freeman struggles. I do give him only a 10% chance of him seeing the field though.

But this isn't a sluggish pick. I think Glennon could turn into something, especially with the team he has around him. Freeman best pick up his game because Glennon isn't a bad player.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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Hmmm, I think I mistyped. I said "I'm no board with Ellis..." should've said "ON board".. I transversed the O and N and when it quickly scanned it to see it didn't look like a 2nd grader wrote it, I saw that "no" was a word and left it.

I'm ON board with Ellis. Sorry to waste your time with my typo... all for it... I'm good... yes...let's do it. Sorry about that :)
HAHAHAHA! Yeah I think it's such a good signing that no way in hell that Bucs do it.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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Also looking at Banks I see can only hope he turns out to be the player that is

Al Harris.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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Also speaking of Packers they are shopping Desmond Bishop. I would give up a 6th rounder for him. SLB or even MLB if Foster doesn't get it done. Just think he would be a very good pickup to finish off our LB core. The guy has hurt all last year, but in 2011 had one hell of a year.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:48 AM    (permalink
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Also looking at Banks I see can only hope he turns out to be the player that is

Al Harris.
You mean former Buc 6th round pick, Al Harris? Don't get me started. I really liked Al as a Buc... but for some reason the Bucs liked Al's former Texas A&M-Kingsville teammate Floyd Young better and cut Harris and started the 98 season with Young as the NB... Two long Randy Moss TDs allowed by Young and years of great service by Harris and I think we all know the Bucs messed up on that one.
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