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Old 05-01-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
nobodyinparticular
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Russell could make all the throws, but I never liked his foot quickness. I'm pretty sure there are some old posts where I said as much at the time. Foot quickness is a big thing for me when I'm projecting QBs.
I think there are a lot of things we can see from his tape that caused him to fall (apart from non-tape related study habits), but this is a big one.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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How many wins can a guy who gets 20 sacks possibly be accountable for?

How many wins can a guy who throws for 4500 yards and 30 touchdowns possibly be accountable for?

Consider these two questions and then you realize why a team with an equal need at defensive end and quarterback will take Teddy Bridgewater over Jadaveon Clowney, even though Clowney is a superior prospect. Franchise quarterbacks are just a higher value, and do more for a franchise, than any franchise defensive end ever will.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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I understand why some are would be skeptical of taking him over a quarterback, but he's not just anybody. Clowney isn't Jake Long, nor is he even an offensive tackle. The guy has a chance to be the biggest impact defender in the last two decades. It's very difficult to find a quarterback, but there are usually two "franchise" guys to come out of every draft (at least on average). If you pass on Clowney, you're not going to see another player like him for the next 20-30 years.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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I understand why some are would be skeptical of taking him over a quarterback, but he's not just anybody. Clowney isn't Jake Long, nor is he even an offensive tackle. The guy has a chance to be the biggest impact defender in the last two decades. It's very difficult to find a quarterback, but there are usually two "franchise" guys to come out of every draft (at least on average). If you pass on Clowney, you're not going to see another player like him for the next 20-30 years.
But if you pick Clowney #1 are you going to be in the top 3 the next season to take one of those 2 franchise QBs that year?
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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Theoretically, I think I'd take Bridgewater because of positional value. In reality, I think Clowney can be on par with Deacon Jones and Reggie White and you really hate to be the idiot who passes on that type of talent.

It's still early though. We might be talking a lot differently in 10 months.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Agreed. It comes down to Scott's mantra (which is a repeated version of an NFL idiom): If you don't have a franchise QB, you don't pass on a potential franchise QB in the draft."
Tell that to the people that are constantly breaking the Bills balls right now over EJ.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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But if you pick Clowney #1 are you going to be in the top 3 the next season to take one of those 2 franchise QBs that year?
It's a myth that you have to have a top three pick to get a franchise quarterback. It greatly increases your odds to draft one that high, but they can be found elsewhere in the draft. The Dolphins get ripped for taking Jake Long over Matt Ryan, but that's just one example. I feel that there are many more instances where teams have "reached" for a quarterback over a superior player only to regret it later.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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If Bridgewater grades out as similarly to Matthew Stafford or Robert Griffin III (I can't possibly imagine him grading out as high as Andrew Luck), then I'm on board with taking him #1. If he's anything less, I'm not going to hesitate to take Clowney. For every Matt Ryan there are five players like Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker, Mark Sanchez, and JaMarcus Russell. Since we're using hindsight, how much better would the Jaguars be if they passed on the franchise quarterback in 2011 and instead drafted J.J. Watt? They could have waited and got Russell Wilson ins 2012.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Look at it this way, who will people remember more in a few years, one of the greatest defensive players of all time/receivers (bringing Calvin back in) or a borderline top 10 QB? Yeah yeah it's all about winning, keep thinking that.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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Look at it this way, who will people remember more in a few years, one of the greatest defensive players of all time/receivers (bringing Calvin back in) or a borderline top 10 QB? Yeah yeah it's all about winning, keep thinking that.
It's absolutely all about winning. That's the point of this whole thing.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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It's absolutely all about winning. That's the point of this whole thing.
Winning is a huge part, but do you think the Lions would be happier with a random Owl win in the 90s if they had never had Barry Sanders? Yes it's mostly about winning, but you're risking an all time player because you MIGHT (probably won't) win an Owl with a borderline top 10 QB.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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It's also part of the draft process to look at the whole draft not just the first overall pick. So if next year I'm picking first and I can get a QB in round two or trade back for one later in the round 1 I would look into it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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But if you pick Clowney #1 are you going to be in the top 3 the next season to take one of those 2 franchise QBs that year?
You don't need to be. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, half of the "franchise" quarterbacks were taken outside of the top ten.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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You don't need to be. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, half of the "franchise" quarterbacks were taken outside of the top ten.
When you're comparing the top 10 picks every year against the next 240, is that really that surprising? I think the point is that it is much harder to find a franchise QB outside of the top 10. If 50% of franchise QB's come from the first 5% of the entire draft, all that does is support the argument that you should get your QB in the top 10.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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When you're comparing the top 10 picks every year against the next 240, is that really that surprising? I think the point is that it is much harder to find a franchise QB outside of the top 10. If 50% of franchise QB's come from the first 5% of the entire draft, all that does is support the argument that you should get your QB in the top 10.
You're more likely to find an franchise quarterback in the top ten, scouts have some idea of what they're doing, there's a reason why quarterbacks would be rated so highly. You've deduced the obvious. That being said, it does not mean that therefore you can find a franchise quarterback only in the top ten.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Again it comes out to grading the players. No GM from the three teams could look at me in the face and tell me that Locker, Ponder and Gabbert were the best players their when they picked. Because of them being QB's they got pushed up the draft process. That's I'm saying... If Teddy Bridgwater grades out as a top 3 pick I'm taking him at 1. If he doesn't I'm taking the DE and drafting a QB in the second round if I can. But I will not pass on a all world player like Clowney for a second tier QB.

Let me say this also... We are all not GM's and don't face the Broads and Sports talk shows etc etc... If your team doesn't have a QB and needs one it's hard to pass on one for a DE or LT and then sell that to the fan base. But in Clowney draft you won't have a problem doing that.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:03 AM    (permalink
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That's absolutely what I'm saying. The Bears have three Hall of Fame defenders, two of which are still playing at a high level. They also had two corners playing as well as any other corners in the league. Cutler gets hurt and what happens? The team is an absolute embarrassment. So yes, I would take a quality quarterback over an elite pass rusher because I've seen what happens when you don't have a good QB.

Yes, it is more important to take a risk on a QB than take Clowney. Jacksonville sticking with Gabbert or Cleveland sticking with Weeden is just telling your fan base you are okay with drafting in the top 10 for another year. But what if the 2015 QB class sucks? Or what if Clowney is good enough to get you 6 wins instead of 3? You pick 8th and the top-QBs are all gone? You going to reach for another Gabbert? Or wait until 2016 and hope you can get one then? If Bridgewater or whoever else is a top-10 type prospect, grab him and never look back.
This argument is really flawed. First of all, it wasn't just Cutler going down, it was Forte as well. And second, not every team goes in the tank when the starting QB goes down. The Bears simply didn't have a passable backup. Washington didn't go in the tank last year when RG3 went down. Houston won a playoff game with T.J. Yates. Philly made the playoffs with Jeff Garcia starting down the stretch for an injured McNabb. The Giants won a Super Bowl with Jeff Hostetler as their backup.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:54 AM    (permalink
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That's absolutely what I'm saying. The Bears have three Hall of Fame defenders, two of which are still playing at a high level. They also had two corners playing as well as any other corners in the league. Cutler gets hurt and what happens? The team is an absolute embarrassment. So yes, I would take a quality quarterback over an elite pass rusher because I've seen what happens when you don't have a good QB.
You also had Rex Grossman as your starting quarterback and made it to the Super Bowl. Again, selective examples prove nothing. Grossman's particular ineptitude certainly didn't help your chances in that game, but the fact that one hand a Bears' team with a bad quarterback can make it to the Super Bowl, and on the other hand a Bears' team with a bad quarterback becomes "an absolute embarrassment", seems to clearly indicate its not as simple as "bad quarterback = bad team", that there are obviously numerous complicating factors involved, regardless of how simplistic you may present it.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:12 AM    (permalink
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Who dares diss the Rex Grossman sexy cannon?
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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Winning is a huge part, but do you think the Lions would be happier with a random Owl win in the 90s if they had never had Barry Sanders? Yes it's mostly about winning, but you're risking an all time player because you MIGHT (probably won't) win an Owl with a borderline top 10 QB.
Huh? It's ALL about winning. Wtf are you talking about?

Anyone who tells you they rather have the luxury of watching a HOFer for 10 years over winning a SB is a complete idiot.

You root for the jersey.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperPacker View Post
Whaaat?

If Bridgewater is on Matt Ryan's level, you take him.. Look at what Matt Ryan has become. He's a franchise QB and the Falcons are perennial playoff contenders because of that.

Agreed. To win in the NFL, you need a QB who can manage the game well and have the ability to carry the team for stretches.


Insofar as team building is concerned, in the last decade or so there have been only 2 other players in Jadeveon Clowney's league coming out as a DE. Those are Julius Peppers and Mario Williams. IF.... you wanted to stretch that out to include DL as a whole, then you throw in Courtney Brown (maybe, because I feel my muscles reaching to complete extension here) way back when and Ndamukong Suh. That's it.

If you push it, you could start to include JJ Watt, Gerald McCoy, Haloti Ngata, and Tommie Harris as guys who were graded out close to that. That makes 8 guys, by my count going back 13 years.


Here's a list of QB's who have been drafted in that same period and were graded as highly as QB's as "your Mendoza-line" of Matt Ryan; Michael Vick, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Ben Roesthlisberger, Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III. That's literally almost HALF the starting QB's in the league right now, and ALL the elite QB's in the NFL except for Peyton Manning (drafted in '98; and certainly a part of the list if I go back to 15 years) and Tom Brady (drafted in 6th round)


I count 13 QB's. And those are only the ones that have panned out. You also had a few who graded just as highly in the last 13 years who have busted bigtime. I won't go into that list, because the point is made. And it is this.


Lately..... franchise QB's have been more plentiful than elite defensive linemen.


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Originally Posted by SuperPacker View Post
You pick Clowney and he becomes Julius Peppers, you're gonna be picking in the top 10 again until you find yourself a franchise QB.


..... and then you end up with a franchise QB.... AND..... an elite DE getting the ball back to your franchise QB.


Your assumption here is that 2014 is the last draft ever. It isn't.



If I'm a GM with that #1 overall next year, I take Clowney, don't even hesitate on it, and take whatever lumps I need to in the next year or two and find my franchise QB in one of the next 2 drafts, adding the neccesary pieces to the team in the process.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:00 PM    (permalink
DeadEagle
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"You have to have a chucker!" - Ron Wolf.

I'd rather have the NFLs 10th best QB than the best DE.


When in reality, you need to have a top QB and a top pass rusher to win.



It is not surpring then, that Tom Brady has not won a Super Bowl without an elite level pass rusher..... is it? Same with Peyton Manning. Eli. Big Ben.


In fact, only 3 teams in recent memory have won a Super Bowl missing either an elite QB AND an elite pass rusher. The 2009 Saints (can't think of an elite pass rusher there), 2002 Buccaneers (Brad Johnson far from elite), 2000 Ravens (Trent Dilfer far from elite). Seems like everyone else had elite QB and pass rusher.




Gotta build a team, guys. A team. Not one single player. Team game.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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Well this will add some fire to that game....

Quote:
South Carolina junior DE Jadeveon Clowney listed four QBs who he believes are scared of him.
Only four? Clowney specifically called attention to Clemson's Tajh Boyd, Georgia's Aaron Murray, former Arkansas passer Tyler Wilson, and Nebraska's Taylor Martinez. "He is scared every time we play them," Clowney said of Boyd. "I know he is probably listening to this right now, but I’m just telling the truth."
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
zachsaints52
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He ran a unofficial 4.46 40....
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Well this will add some fire to that game....

Quote:
South Carolina junior DE Jadeveon Clowney listed four QBs who he believes are scared of him.
Only four? Clowney specifically called attention to Clemson's Tajh Boyd, Georgia's Aaron Murray, former Arkansas passer Tyler Wilson, and Nebraska's Taylor Martinez. "He is scared every time we play them," Clowney said of Boyd. "I know he is probably listening to this right now, but Im just telling the truth."
Well given how Clowney manhandled Boyd last time they met, I dont blame Boyd if he isnt looking forward to their next meeting..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsrBdnLV6Og
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