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Old 05-02-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Dude YOU said "even if we would have got him at 47". I was using YOUR Scenario
LOL. I was playing YOUR game as if he was there. You should know by now that I don't think he would've been.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
Isn't it automatic for people to hate a Dallas draft simply because it is a Dallas draft.

I guarantee you the media would of crucified Dallas if we reached for Pugh at 18 while being silent or reveling for the Giants filling needs.

Poppycock.

Couldn't agree more, immediately after the draft it's all about perception. Now that the draft is over, it's all about what they players we have do going forward. I really don't care anymore where they were drafted, where they were supposed to go, any of that. I personally just don't get it.


What if we took Brandon Flowers at 22 in the 08 draft over guys like Jenkins, Cason, etc. We would have gotten trashed. What if we took Charles at 22 over Chris Johnson, Mendenhall, Felix, etc. We would have gotten trashed. Of course our draft history is bad, all that has to do with how optimistic you want to be with how good the class will be, but regardless all that matters is how they look on the field.


Prime example is if Shariff Floyd ends up a bust and Frederick is a really good player all of a sudden it was a great pick. I'm not saying I trust Jerry to do that, but sometimes we act like a bunch of teams didn't also pass on Floyd that really needed him and probably took players that weren't rated as high as him either. It wasn't just us that passed, if he was a lock to be a man-child at DT he wouldn't have went to 23.


Plus nobody will care if Williams turns into a younger version of Austin. Just let it play out guys. They are on the team now, that doesn't mean you have to like them but you may as well let them play and judge them off of that at this point.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dal...e-improved.ece

My math is not good but it seems that trading down 13 places in the first round and only getting a mid round #3 seems to me that Jerry got the short end of the stick so to speak. Are the 49ers that slick or did Jerry mess things up?

According to the famous "chart" created by Jimmy Johnson and former Jones associate Mike McCoy, it was not enough. Now I don't think you have to go strictly by the numbers on the chart if there is a specific player you target that you believe you can obtain while trading down. It's my contention that the Cowboys had no plans to pick Frederick at 31 and were surprised that Williams was still around at 74. So this case does not fit the "exception" criteria.

What is your grade for the Cowboys draft? A, B, C, D or F?

I would give them a D. Terrance Williams can raise it to a C.

Guess Cowlishaw isnt a fan.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Couldn't agree more, immediately after the draft it's all about perception. Now that the draft is over, it's all about what they players we have do going forward. I really don't care anymore where they were drafted, where they were supposed to go, any of that. I personally just don't get it.


What if we took Brandon Flowers at 22 in the 08 draft over guys like Jenkins, Cason, etc. We would have gotten trashed. What if we took Charles at 22 over Chris Johnson, Mendenhall, Felix, etc. We would have gotten trashed. Of course our draft history is bad, all that has to do with how optimistic you want to be with how good the class will be, but regardless all that matters is how they look on the field.


Prime example is if Shariff Floyd ends up a bust and Frederick is a really good player all of a sudden it was a great pick. I'm not saying I trust Jerry to do that, but sometimes we act like a bunch of teams didn't also pass on Floyd that really needed him and probably took players that weren't rated as high as him either. It wasn't just us that passed, if he was a lock to be a man-child at DT he wouldn't have went to 23.


Plus nobody will care if Williams turns into a younger version of Austin. Just let it play out guys. They are on the team now, that doesn't mean you have to like them but you may as well let them play and judge them off of that at this point.
We all want success for the guys we drafted. This draft started off bad with the value of the trade down. Guys fall all the time. Why? IDK but should Moss have fell? Sapp? Rodgers? Brady, Rice, McCoy? Just because a guy falls doesnt mean the teams that passed came out making a good choice. Once the balls in the air we will all be united with the hope our Boys go 16-0 and we will cuss and discuss every game. Right now some of us just have a difference of opinions of why/how the draft went. Nothing wrong with that right?
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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Read this earlier, can we do this with Free?


Quote:
Clabo's release only will free up about $900,000 in the short term, but the team designated him as a June 1 cut.

After June 1, the move will allow the Falcons to clear up about $4.5 million in cap space.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/91...le-tyson-clabo


If so why haven't we done this like yesterday? They didn't get a ton of money, but that wiggle room could be the difference between missing out on a guy. With McKinnie signed the clock has already started.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by pocketaces View Post
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dal...e-improved.ece

My math is not good but it seems that trading down 13 places in the first round and only getting a mid round #3 seems to me that Jerry got the short end of the stick so to speak. Are the 49ers that slick or did Jerry mess things up?

According to the famous "chart" created by Jimmy Johnson and former Jones associate Mike McCoy, it was not enough. Now I don't think you have to go strictly by the numbers on the chart if there is a specific player you target that you believe you can obtain while trading down. It's my contention that the Cowboys had no plans to pick Frederick at 31 and were surprised that Williams was still around at 74. So this case does not fit the "exception" criteria.

What is your grade for the Cowboys draft? A, B, C, D or F?

I would give them a D. Terrance Williams can raise it to a C.

Guess Cowlishaw isnt a fan.
Just another guy's guess on what the Cowboys were trying to do. Makes him no different from you, me or my dog. How about we just believe the Cowboys took the guy they wanted most at each pick? Crazy thought, but just maybeeeeee!! lol
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Read this earlier, can we do this with Free?



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/91...le-tyson-clabo


If so why haven't we done this like yesterday? They didn't get a ton of money, but that wiggle room could be the difference between missing out on a guy. With McKinnie signed the clock has already started.
We already did that with Spears. We designated him a June 1st cut a long time ago.

The only thing I can think of is that the Cowboys are still hoping they can salvage Free because they don't want his dead money on the books for all those years that he won't be on the team. Rather, they are hoping that he restructures and takes a pay cut.

It's Free who is screwing the Cowboys right now. He doesn't want to take a pay cut ESPECIALLY if it means the money that it frees up will replace him! So I think this is going to go down to the wire. Either June 1st gets here first and the Cowboys simply cut him. Or they wait until there is only one RT left in FA between Clabo and Winston. Once one of them goes, the Cowboys may make their move.

If none of that happens and we go into the season with Free/Parnell at RT, then they better hope they pan out or face the fury of Cowboys Nation.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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Just another guy's guess on what the Cowboys were trying to do. Makes him no different from you, me or my dog. How about we just believe the Cowboys took the guy they wanted most at each pick? Crazy thought, but just maybeeeeee!! lol
Who was it who used to have the sig "In Jerrah I Trust"? Lol
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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We already did that with Spears. We designated him a June 1st cut a long time ago.

The only thing I can think of is that the Cowboys are still hoping they can salvage Free because they don't want his dead money on the books for all those years that he won't be on the team. Rather, they are hoping that he restructures and takes a pay cut.

It's Free who is screwing the Cowboys right now. He doesn't want to take a pay cut ESPECIALLY if it means the money that it frees up will replace him! So I think this is going to go down to the wire. Either June 1st gets here first and the Cowboys simply cut him. Or they wait until there is only one RT left in FA between Clabo and Winston. Once one of them goes, the Cowboys may make their move.

If none of that happens and we go into the season with Free/Parnell at RT, then they better hope they pan out or face the fury of Cowboys Nation.
Ugh...Why would you wait till another team takes who they want and we get the leftovers? We have the money, sign the guy WE want, then cut Free. Screw waiting on him or another team.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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We already did that with Spears. We designated him a June 1st cut a long time ago.

The only thing I can think of is that the Cowboys are still hoping they can salvage Free because they don't want his dead money on the books for all those years that he won't be on the team. Rather, they are hoping that he restructures and takes a pay cut.

It's Free who is screwing the Cowboys right now. He doesn't want to take a pay cut ESPECIALLY if it means the money that it frees up will replace him! So I think this is going to go down to the wire. Either June 1st gets here first and the Cowboys simply cut him. Or they wait until there is only one RT left in FA between Clabo and Winston. Once one of them goes, the Cowboys may make their move.

If none of that happens and we go into the season with Free/Parnell at RT, then they better hope they pan out or face the fury of Cowboys Nation.

That makes sense then. I wanted Parnell out there for 1 honestly but that was before anybody knew both those tackles would be released. It was surprising on both teams and pretty much a gift to us and I am just getting the feeling we aren't going to take advantage of it.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by pocketaces View Post
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dal...e-improved.ece

My math is not good but it seems that trading down 13 places in the first round and only getting a mid round #3 seems to me that Jerry got the short end of the stick so to speak. Are the 49ers that slick or did Jerry mess things up?

According to the famous "chart" created by Jimmy Johnson and former Jones associate Mike McCoy, it was not enough. Now I don't think you have to go strictly by the numbers on the chart if there is a specific player you target that you believe you can obtain while trading down. It's my contention that the Cowboys had no plans to pick Frederick at 31 and were surprised that Williams was still around at 74. So this case does not fit the "exception" criteria.

What is your grade for the Cowboys draft? A, B, C, D or F?

I would give them a D. Terrance Williams can raise it to a C.

Guess Cowlishaw isnt a fan.
I think we all get the there are a good amount of people in the draft community that don't like the trade down and ultimately the pick that was made. I agree that for a team that talks so much about drafting "pure" leaving the top player and #7 overall to trade down didn't isn't what they preach. That being said 23 teams passed on Floyd and he ultimately fell where I had him ranked as a low first round grade. There is plenty to like about the way he goes about business but he really lacks polish and there was no guarantee that he would have beaten out Hatcher or Ratliff for a starting position. As for the other players rumored to have 1st round grades (Eifert, Patterson) neither were need positions and I would argue adding Eifert would be stacking a position that has failed twice with high profile #2's. Supposedly Patterson was the target after the trade down but unfortunately he did not fall far enough erasing the last first round talent off the board.

Say what you want about the trade but I think Jerry summed it up the best when he said sometimes where you are selling you have to compromise to make the trade go through. Not that we know what was going behind the scenes but clearly no one was burning a path to move up and get any of the guys we had rated highly. Eifert fell three more slots, Floyd 5, and Patterson would have most likely squeezed through if Minnesota didn't mortgage the rest of their draft to make a third pick in the first round. If they would have been able to get someone at 31 that they considered at 18 and picked up a 3rd it would have been a huge win even if the charts didn't match. As we know that's not what happened and unfortunately once the 1st round prospects are dried up you turn the page. Regardless out where the talking heads rated Frederick he was a 2nd round prospect on our board and with lineman coming off the boards like hotcakes I can't blame them for selecting him early. Myself I had Carradine as the top player on the board a 31 and would have gladly taken him to groom behind Spencer for a year. To me that makes sense in what circles Jerry and Stephen are talking about in terms or erasing money with younger players.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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Ugh...Why would you wait till another team takes who they want and we get the leftovers? We have the money, sign the guy WE want, then cut Free. Screw waiting on him or another team.
It's kind of a cat and mouse game right now. Who will panic first? Cowboys or Free?

If the Clabo or Winston are signed, that might push the panic button for the Boys, but they might hold out hoping that Free takes a pay cut first.

I don't know if it could happen, but could they get Free to take a pay cut AND THEN cut him? That would lower his Dead Money penalty on the books if possible. lol. Probably more likely that there will be writing in the contract preventing the Cowboys from cutting him if he takes a pay cut. I dunno... it's complicated for sure.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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I think we all get the there are a good amount of people in the draft community that don't like the trade down and ultimately the pick that was made. I agree that for a team that talks so much about drafting "pure" leaving the top player and #7 overall to trade down didn't isn't what they preach. That being said 23 teams passed on Floyd and he ultimately fell where I had him ranked as a low first round grade. There is plenty to like about the way he goes about business but he really lacks polish and there was no guarantee that he would have beaten out Hatcher or Ratliff for a starting position. As for the other players rumored to have 1st round grades (Eifert, Patterson) neither were need positions and I would argue adding Eifert would be stacking a position that has failed twice with high profile #2's. Supposedly Patterson was the target after the trade down but unfortunately he did not fall far enough erasing the last first round talent off the board.

Say what you want about the trade but I think Jerry summed it up the best when he said sometimes where you are selling you have to compromise to make the trade go through. Not that we know what was going behind the scenes but clearly no one was burning a path to move up and get any of the guys we had rated highly. Eifert fell three more slots, Floyd 5, and Patterson would have most likely squeezed through if Minnesota didn't mortgage the rest of their draft to make a third pick in the first round. If they would have been able to get someone at 31 that they considered at 18 and picked up a 3rd it would have been a huge win even if the charts didn't match. As we know that's not what happened and unfortunately once the 1st round prospects are dried up you turn the page. Regardless out where the talking heads rated Frederick he was a 2nd round prospect on our board and with lineman coming off the boards like hotcakes I can't blame them for selecting him early. Myself I had Carradine as the top player on the board a 31 and would have gladly taken him to groom behind Spencer for a year. To me that makes sense in what circles Jerry and Stephen are talking about in terms or erasing money with younger players.
1) Isnt that what we did with our 2nd round pick?

2) Thats NOT what they were saying after the draft. When quetioned about not getting equal value they said "thats not true. In fact we got more than was expected" (Paraphrasing) so now hes spinning it it seems.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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It's kind of a cat and mouse game right now. Who will panic first? Cowboys or Free?

If the Clabo or Winston are signed, that might push the panic button for the Boys, but they might hold out hoping that Free takes a pay cut first.

I don't know if it could happen, but could they get Free to take a pay cut AND THEN cut him? That would lower his Dead Money penalty on the books if possible. lol. Probably more likely that there will be writing in the contract preventing the Cowboys from cutting him if he takes a pay cut. I dunno... it's complicated for sure.
Yeah I dont understand all of the contract aspects but if you can get a HUGE upgrade at a resonable price I would make the deal then make Free a post 1st cut. If they wait to long they are liable to end up with no options.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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1) Isnt that what we did with our 2nd round pick?

2) Thats NOT what they were saying after the draft. When quetioned about not getting equal value they said "thats not true. In fact we got more than was expected" (Paraphrasing) so now hes spinning it it seems.
1) Yes, and that is the move that I really did not like in the draft.

2) This video is what I was paraphrasing and basically both Stephen and Jerry basically say that they have charts that reflect trading down "getting good value" and others saying they "needed more". I'm pretty sure they know that league wide they didn't get the best value but as you said they were bailed out by getting great value when Williams was available at 74. At the same time the lost when Patterson did not make it until 31, it is ultimately a risk but turned out to be a wash in my mind. Minutes 2:00 until 9:00 they go into detail about the draft charts etc

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multime...1-9dccecd23b09
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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I really would've been mad with Patterson at 31. Sure the value was nice, but that would've been an irresponsible use of our 1st rounder. ...taking a WR... ugh.

Also, when asked if the Cowboys tried to get more in the trade, didn't Jerry say something like "Does a Bear live in the woods?" ..as if to say of course they tried to get more.

In the end, you can only take your best offer.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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I really would've been mad with Patterson at 31. Sure the value was nice, but that would've been an irresponsible use of our 1st rounder. ...taking a WR... ugh.

Also, when asked if the Cowboys tried to get more in the trade, didn't Jerry say something like "Does a Bear live in the woods?" ..as if to say of course they tried to get more.

In the end, you can only take your best offer.
I'm not sure I catch your logic about wanting to draft Eifert but hating drafting Patterson especially considering the success Romo has had with a plus third WR compared to a highly drafted #2 TE.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure I catch your logic about wanting to draft Eifert but hating drafting Patterson especially considering the success Romo has had with a plus third WR compared to a highly drafted #2 TE.
The TE adds a completely different element and gives us a real solution to what we tried to do in the past, but failed simply because the #2 TEs we had were subpar receivers. Plus, I think Eifert would've been a sure thing to become Witten's heir. Escobar is in a wait and see category in that regard.

I can see your point that Romo has had success with a #3 WR, but a 1st round #3 WR would've been overkill for me. The 3rd round guy we got is the perfect kind of value, imo. But honestly, I think we should've taken Keenan Allen. I would be so happy right now if we did that.
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:05 PM    (permalink
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The TE adds a completely different element and gives us a real solution to what we tried to do in the past, but failed simply because the #2 TEs we had were subpar receivers. Plus, I think Eifert would've been a sure thing to become Witten's heir. Escobar is in a wait and see category in that regard.

I can see your point that Romo has had success with a #3 WR, but a 1st round #3 WR would've been overkill for me. The 3rd round guy we got is the perfect kind of value, imo. But honestly, I think we should've taken Keenan Allen. I would be so happy right now if we did that.
Fasano could catch the ball pretty good and while he isn't an all star type player he has averaged about 430 yards and 5 TDs a season since he left. Pushing Hannah to number #3 on the depth chart is overkill to me and while he is still rough around the edges he profiles as a bigger matchup problem then Eifert or Escobar because of his straight line speed. Talks of "12" and "13" personnel make me scratch my head considering they don't really fit within the Coryell concept JG bases his offense around.

Adding a WR makes more sense especially a guy in Patterson who is a terror in the open field. He would have profiled perfect as the deep threat opposite of Dez while Austin kicked inside on 3 wide sets. Having two guys on the outside that force you to gang tackle and the threat of a crafty route runner inside is a potent combination. I do agree Allen would have been the better pick in the third but man his knee must be busted up if we passed on him three times. Our staff loves rehab projects who offer great potential and clearly they didn't like the feel of his injury.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:51 AM    (permalink
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Fasano could catch the ball pretty good and while he isn't an all star type player he has averaged about 430 yards and 5 TDs a season since he left. Pushing Hannah to number #3 on the depth chart is overkill to me and while he is still rough around the edges he profiles as a bigger matchup problem then Eifert or Escobar because of his straight line speed. Talks of "12" and "13" personnel make me scratch my head considering they don't really fit within the Coryell concept JG bases his offense around.

Adding a WR makes more sense especially a guy in Patterson who is a terror in the open field. He would have profiled perfect as the deep threat opposite of Dez while Austin kicked inside on 3 wide sets. Having two guys on the outside that force you to gang tackle and the threat of a crafty route runner inside is a potent combination. I do agree Allen would have been the better pick in the third but man his knee must be busted up if we passed on him three times. Our staff loves rehab projects who offer great potential and clearly they didn't like the feel of his injury.
Not gonna sell me on the idea that Hanna is a bigger match up problem than Eifert... or even Escobar for that matter.

Funny thing is I bet if Allen didn't work out at all, that I think he would've been a higher pick, and maybe we would've taken him. But because he ran so slow and looked so lethargic on his pro day, I think that scared off a lot of teams. Maybe teams were wise to pass on him. They would definitely have more info to go off of to make that judgement. We shall see.

Gotta remain...if we had taken a WR in Round 1, I would've been disappointed. Sure, I could see the sexiness of the pick, but I could not fathom the Cowboys continuing to ignore the OL.

But let me try to think about what you're saying... Patterson vs Eifert....

Hmmm....
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:39 AM    (permalink
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Anyone else impressed with what we've managed to do at LB for the 1st year transition?

Carter/Sims - Lee/Magee - Durant/Holloman

I thought we've done a nice job of targeting bargains that tailor to this system to fill out the depth chart. Holloman and Magee aren't a fit for every team, but they're the kind of run and hit LBs we needed to transition over to, and were ballers in the college ranks.



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Old 05-03-2013, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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Anyone else impressed with what we've managed to do at LB for the 1st year transition?

Carter/Sims - Lee/Magee - Durant/Holloman

I thought we've done a nice job of targeting bargains that tailor to this system to fill out the depth chart. Holloman and Magee aren't a fit for every team, but they're the kind of run and hit LBs we needed to transition over to, and were ballers in the college ranks.
I'm excited. We are going to have an athletic defense that flies to the ball. Best case scenario is the rumblings about the secondary emulating Seattle. If we play press-and-bail with a mix of press-man on the outside while running base Cover-2 the assignments will be simple and we'll be playing full throttle.

Bruce Carter could be a MONSTER in the new scheme as well. He seems built for the purpose of playing WLB in 4-3 Cover-2.


On a happier note BtB is reporting that Doug Free did NOT refuse a pay cut his agent simply has not replied to Dallas's request. They are suggesting that Free needed the market to be set for RT's prior to agreeing to a pay-cut and that movement on either a pay-cut or movement on a FA RT may be coming soon after McKinnie's deal set the market (2 years - 7 million).
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Our LB core is really awesome. Lee at middle and Carter at weak fit this scheme absolutely beautifully. Durant was a really nice underrated signing, that position is a strength. I like our entire front 7 if we had more D-line depth honestly. We are fitting nicely until injuries hit at least.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Our LB core is really awesome. Lee at middle and Carter at weak fit this scheme absolutely beautifully. Durant was a really nice underrated signing, that position is a strength. I like our entire front 7 if we had more D-line depth honestly. We are fitting nicely until injuries hit at least.
Three tech is the position that I think would be the hardest to fill if injuries started piling up. I'm betting that they feel Crawford can fill that hole in a pinch if Hatcher and Ratliff are knicked up. Lissemore is fine filling in at 1 tech and Calloway will probably round out in the interior line.

If something goes wrong with Ware I'd expect Spencer would shift over to the weakside and the other guys would platoon on the strong side.
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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Three tech is the position that I think would be the hardest to fill if injuries started piling up. I'm betting that they feel Crawford can fill that hole in a pinch if Hatcher and Ratliff are knicked up. Lissemore is fine filling in at 1 tech and Calloway will probably round out in the interior line.

If something goes wrong with Ware I'd expect Spencer would shift over to the weakside and the other guys would platoon on the strong side.
You kind of just answered the reason why I'm not that panicked about 3 tech. Crawford is there to step in and actually I see him being rotated in a lot to keep legs fresh.

Another thing to acknowledge is that Hatcher could play 3 tech too. So I see us 3 deep at least at 3 tech.

The place I worry for us is at DE. Especially if Ware goes down *knock on wood*. We don't have another speed rushing DE.


.... LOVE our LBs... We did a great job there for sure. I'm especially loving the Durant pick up. IMO, that's the kind of pick up that the Ravens or Steelers would've made. We got this ma'annnn! ;)
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