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Old 05-05-2013, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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We should stick with a 4-3 as long as JPP is on the team. As long as he's on our team, it makes absolutely no sense to switch to a 3-4.

There's nothing wrong with a 4-3 defense. You just need the right players and the right coach.
JPP needs to play better. Not to say I want a change, but if a new coach wants to change, I am fine with that. Change is good, and just because of one player, I am not going to stop or impede change just for him.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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I think when you start relying on backups and depth to step up, you're asking for trouble.

Realistically, we'll be lucky if 40% of our IFs have answers. I remember last year this time we thought we had great linebacker depth.

Turns out it actually sucked pretty hard. That's the risk you take when you rely on depth. It doesn't always work out the way you hope.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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JPP needs to play better. Not to say I want a change, but if a new coach wants to change, I am fine with that. Change is good, and just because of one player, I am not going to stop or impede change just for him.
JPP was rated as the 3rd best DE in the league last year by PFF. Granted I'm not too big on those websites, but JPP had a great year. He just didn't get many sacks.

Good coaches adapt to the players. JPP is a cornerstone on defense, it would be idiotic to change on him. He can't play a 3-4. Sometimes we dramatically overrate Xs and Os. Players gotta play. No play was designed not to work.

Defenses are so multiple now that you can make a 4-3 defense look like a 3-4 anyway. For example, if we ran the 4-3 Over scheme of Seattle, that's pretty much a 3-4 out of a 4-3 shell.

You just have to find a good 4-3 coach and we're fine.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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Agreed. JPP had a great year, unfortunately we are trained to say, "How many sacks did he have? That measures success," which is true to an extent. Same goes with other premier stats, like interceptions. It's why play-by-play and color commentators would always rave about Stevie Brown and his INT's when most of us know he played like crap.

JPP had a very good year. It didn't translate into sacks though.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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JPP was rated as the 3rd best DE in the league last year by PFF. Granted I'm not too big on those websites, but JPP had a great year. He just didn't get many sacks.

Good coaches adapt to the players. JPP is a cornerstone on defense, it would be idiotic to change on him. He can't play a 3-4. Sometimes we dramatically overrate Xs and Os. Players gotta play. No play was designed not to work.

Defenses are so multiple now that you can make a 4-3 defense look like a 3-4 anyway. For example, if we ran the 4-3 Over scheme of Seattle, that's pretty much a 3-4 out of a 4-3 shell.

You just have to find a good 4-3 coach and we're fine.
I am not big on those stat websites. They are turning the sport into a stat class. Adjusted value of stuff vs non adjusted value. And each network is using or creating their models to out due the other. An example is ESPN and the new QB rating model, and now they have 2 QB ratings.

So not a real fan of that growing trend. So that's my rant or annoyance on that issue.

Good 43 coach and we are fine. LOL. Very simplistic considering we are on our, what number now? 1..3.. 4?! And soon to be on our 5th! 5th damn DC soon.

Ok so fine, let's get a good 43 coach and roll. Let's not waste time with lemons.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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It's a combination of coaching and players. There's plenty of good 4-3 coaches out there, we just have to find em. Coughlin is stubborn with his coaches. And Coughlin loves the Cover 2, which is more of a problem than the alignment our defense runs.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Finding them is the issue with TC. Someone said in his last 3 years with the Jags, TC went through 3 DCs! If that's true, that's insane. 3 years - 3 DCs, and now we are on our 4th! That's a pathetic trend! That is why we don't have stability. It seems like it's 1 year playoff, next year no, one year play off next year no.

I'd like that side of the ball to be a lot more consistent. If that happens we can make it every year. The offense in my opinion has been consistent though there are times every year that annoy me. Last year was troubling to say the least. Getting bageled by the Falcons was not good at all.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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I mean, it's a Coughlin issue. Unfortunately, it's something we'll have to live with as long as he's our head coach.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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That's a big team issue. That loyalty which straddles the line of being obsessively stubborn hurts the team. Didn't the Maras force him to fire Lewis or Sheridan? I forgot which one but they got involved. I remember reading that back then.

Spag was the only one that left for a HCing job. The rest were fired. Hufangel, Lewis, and Sheridan.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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That's a big team issue. That loyalty which straddles the line of being obsessively stubborn hurts the team. Didn't the Maras force him to fire Lewis or Sheridan? I forgot which one but they got involved. I remember reading that back then.

Spag was the only one that left for a HCing job. The rest were fired. Hufangel, Lewis, and Sheridan.
I don't think it is that bad

We have done really well with position coaches

as far as Hufnagel goes, he should have been QB coach and Gilbride OC

But we have done well with position coaches with Flahrety, Pope, Ingram, Sullivan, Ryan, Giunta, Merritt, Nunn and Hermann.

Coughlin likes to bring in guys that he has worked with in the past, I don't see an issue with that.

Coughlin's staff do a great job of teaching players, but in some ways other than Spags we haven't had a stud DC.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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I was just looking into DCs accross the NFL

There has been change in DCs in recent years, only 4 coaches have been with their current teams longer than Perry Fewell has been with us.

Here is a list of when teams hired their current DCs


2013 - Pettine (Bills), Thurman (Jets), Horton (Browns), Babich (Jaguars), Sutton (Chiefs), Kiffin (Cowboys), Davis (Eagles), Tucker (Bears), Ryan (Saints), Bowles (Cardinals), Walton (Rams), Quinn (Seahawks)

2012 - Coyle (Dolpins), Patricia (Patriots), Pees (Ravens), Butler (Colts), Del Rio (Broncos), Tarver (Raiders), Pagano (Chargers), Williams (Vikings), Nolan (Falcons), Sheridan (Buccaneers)

2011 - Phillips (Texans), Gray (Titans), McDermott (Panthers), Fangio (49ers)

2010 - Fewell (Giants), Haslett (Redskins)

2009 - Cunningham (Lions), Capers (Packers)

2008 - Mike Zimmer (Bengals)

2004 - Dick LeBeau (Steelers)
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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interestingly there is a lot of turnover on the offensive side as well.

Here is a list of when teams signed their current OC


2013 - Hackett (Bills), Mornhinweg (Jets), Turner (Browns), Hamilton (Colts), Fisch (2013), Gase (Broncos), Pederson (Chiefs), Olsen (Raiders), Wisenhunt (Chargers), Shurmer (Eagles), Kromer (Bears), Shula (Panthers), Goodwin (Cardinals)

2012 - Sherman (Dolphins), McDaniels (Patriots), Caldwell (Ravens), Haley (Steelers), Loggains (Titans), Callahan (Cowboys), Clements (Packers), Koetter (Falcons), Sullivan (Buccaneers), Schottenheimer (Rams)

2011 - Gruden (Bengals), Musgrave (Vikings), Bevell (Seahawks)

2010 - Dennison (Texans), Shanahan (Redskins)

2009 - Linehan (Lions), Carmichael Jr (Saints)

2006 - Gilbride (Giants)
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Finding them is the issue with TC. Someone said in his last 3 years with the Jags, TC went through 3 DCs! If that's true, that's insane. 3 years - 3 DCs, and now we are on our 4th! That's a pathetic trend! That is why we don't have stability. It seems like it's 1 year playoff, next year no, one year play off next year no.

I'd like that side of the ball to be a lot more consistent. If that happens we can make it every year. The offense in my opinion has been consistent though there are times every year that annoy me. Last year was troubling to say the least. Getting bageled by the Falcons was not good at all.
don't have stability? pathetic?

we've won 2 sbs in 5 years, with 2 different DCs...what are you complaining about again?
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:32 AM    (permalink
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Yeah we really have no room to complain given the track record.

But to elaborate, this is why I want a defensive coach as our next coach. Eli brings stability to the offense, the offense will be fine as long as he's our qb. We don't need an offensive HC to coach up that side of the ball. What we need is stability on defense, and a defensive coach brings that stability.

I have no problem having an offensive coach when you're developing a qb. That's fine. But Eli is at the point in his career where we don't need that anymore. When TC retires, let's bring in a defensive coach who will shore up that side of the ball and bring stability there, and let Eli run the offense with Gilbride.

Gilbride isn't going anywhere. No one will hire him as a HC. So let Eli and Gilbride run the show on offense, hire a defensive coach and have stability across the board.

But as long as TC is our coach, which I hope is for awhile, we're just gonna have to accept the fact that we're going to have instability on defense. It's just part of the package with Coughlin. Considering he won us 2 SBs, I'll take it, but hopefully the next DC is a guy we can groom to be the next HC.

I want an aggressive 4-3 coordinator. We might have to look in the college ranks to find him, bc most 4-3 coordinators at the NFL level outside of Zimmer, Spags, and Miami's DC are all Cover 2 guys for the most part.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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don't have stability? pathetic?

we've won 2 sbs in 5 years, with 2 different DCs...what are you complaining about again?
Yes, and yes. Our defense. That's lovely, and that saved his job. I am complaining out our musical DCs. If we had stability where did Lewis go? How about Sheridan? How do you like being ranked 31st in defense?

Fun isn't it? Yes pathetic. I am not sure about you but being ranked 31st doesn't sit well with me. It's not like we have that many holes on that side of the ball.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Yeah we really have no room to complain given the track record.

But to elaborate, this is why I want a defensive coach as our next coach. Eli brings stability to the offense, the offense will be fine as long as he's our qb. We don't need an offensive HC to coach up that side of the ball. What we need is stability on defense, and a defensive coach brings that stability.

I have no problem having an offensive coach when you're developing a qb. That's fine. But Eli is at the point in his career where we don't need that anymore. When TC retires, let's bring in a defensive coach who will shore up that side of the ball and bring stability there, and let Eli run the offense with Gilbride.

Gilbride isn't going anywhere. No one will hire him as a HC. So let Eli and Gilbride run the show on offense, hire a defensive coach and have stability across the board.

But as long as TC is our coach, which I hope is for awhile, we're just gonna have to accept the fact that we're going to have instability on defense. It's just part of the package with Coughlin. Considering he won us 2 SBs, I'll take it, but hopefully the next DC is a guy we can groom to be the next HC.

I want an aggressive 4-3 coordinator. We might have to look in the college ranks to find him, bc most 4-3 coordinators at the NFL level outside of Zimmer, Spags, and Miami's DC are all Cover 2 guys for the most part.


At this point, I'll take anyone of those DCs. Gilbride will be here as long as TC is here. I don't mind that. However, I would, before Eli retires, like to see him in another system. I know he can be even more productive in another system than in ours.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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We won't change systems on Eli. He's gonna run this offense for his whole career. He even said himself it's the only offense he knows. You don't change it on the guy now.

Maybe you tweak it, but you don't change it. Chan Gailey would be a good replacement for Gilbride. Similar system, with some tweaks to it. Josh McDaniels too. Mike Sullivan.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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We won't change systems on Eli. He's gonna run this offense for his whole career. He even said himself it's the only offense he knows. You don't change it on the guy now.

Maybe you tweak it, but you don't change it. Chan Gailey would be a good replacement for Gilbride. Similar system, with some tweaks to it. Josh McDaniels too. Mike Sullivan.
Until TC retires, and we clean slate everything. I would take Josh M. I liked his ability to call plays. How old is Gailey? Isn't he really old? No, on Mike S. I hope it changes. Screw tweaking it, UNLESS it's the option and choice routes. Then you keep the concepts but change that aspect, I am fine with that.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Until TC retires, and we clean slate everything. I would take Josh M. I liked his ability to call plays. How old is Gailey? Isn't he really old? No, on Mike S. I hope it changes. Screw tweaking it, UNLESS it's the option and choice routes. Then you keep the concepts but change that aspect, I am fine with that.
Bro, I'm telling you, we're not gonna change it. That's just how it is. Eli has maybe 5 more years in his career, we're not gonna change the offense on him now. If we move on from Gilbride we'll replace him with someone who runs a similar system. Like the guys I mentioned.

I like Gailey's system. I think he'd do well with our offense. He runs the same choices, but he loves spreading you out more than we do. He pushes the envelope with the spread.

Plus he's willing to use some qb runs and read options. Something that Nassib could do. It would be nice to develop Nassib in that system so he keeps developing as well.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Bro, I'm telling you, we're not gonna change it. That's just how it is. Eli has maybe 5 more years in his career, we're not gonna change the offense on him now. If we move on from Gilbride we'll replace him with someone who runs a similar system. Like the guys I mentioned.

I like Gailey's system. I think he'd do well with our offense. He runs the same choices, but he loves spreading you out more than we do. He pushes the envelope with the spread.
5-7 years for Eli if he can stay healthy I estimated things for him. It will be interesting to see. It depends on the the new HC. I guess we should first pinpoint that guy.

I would guess our next HC would be a younger guy, unless it's Cowher.
Any new offense would be easier than this one, especially on the Wrs. That would one thing I was looking forward. That's one last thing on the bucket list I wish for. I had my aggressive DC in Spags, even though he left. I just wanted a new system or same one minus the choice and option routes. That's one thing I can't stand.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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It's going to be Sullivan as the next head coach.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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How old is he? I want a HC with prior HCing experience.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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I don't mind Sullivan. I really want a defensive coach though.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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That's rare now a days. All the HCs hired this offseason were offensive HCes. Even a winning HC in Lovie Smith couldn't get on. So with that trend, I am not sure we go defensive HC. I wouldn't mind it if the DHC is a good one.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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What kind of defense did Spagnuolo run with you guys? I know you guys love him and I just saw the Ravens signed him as a defensive assistant. It will be interesting to see how his style fits in with Pees and the Ravens talent
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