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Old 05-16-2013, 06:16 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Then you weren't watching, cause eli's play was elite and not just good during those runs. He's also been the best late game and hurry up regular season QBs since he became a starter. Eli was always amazingly clutch, even before his SB runs. And since then he's added some huge regular season numbers to. You can talk about an alternate universe where Eli Manning isn't a two time SB MVP, but that's just it, an alternate universe where Eli Manning isn't the Eli Manning he is in our universe. There's also an alternate Universe were Peyton Manning never played football and has a tiny failing flower shop in bumfuck nowhere tennessee.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
Then you weren't watching, cause eli's play was elite and not just good during those runs. He's also been the best late game and hurry up regular season QBs since he became a starter. Eli was always amazingly clutch, even before his SB runs. And since then he's added some huge regular season numbers to. You can talk about an alternate universe where Eli Manning isn't a two time SB MVP, but that's just it, an alternate universe where Eli Manning isn't the Eli Manning he is in our universe. There's also an alternate Universe were Peyton Manning never played football and has a tiny failing flower shop in bumfuck nowhere tennessee.
But it's an argument that has nothing to do with how good Eli Manning is. If he was actually an elite QB the argument against it would be that it's his play that suggests he should be classed as an elite QB. Unfortunately it doesn't.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Except his play is why he's a 2 time superbowl MVP, not luck, not riding his defense, or anything other than Eli stepping up when the moment's called for it to do what he had to win, which is what Eli has done since he's worn Blue. You wanna ignore his rings fine, that's stupid, but fine, you still can't just ignore the caliber of play that won him those rings and that's made him a future hall of famer.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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Except his play is why he's a 2 time superbowl MVP, not luck, not riding his defense, or anything other than Eli stepping up when the moment's called for it to do what he had to win, which is what Eli has done since he's worn Blue. You wanna ignore his rings fine, that's stupid, but fine, you still can't just ignore the caliber of play that won him those rings and that's made him a future hall of famer.
i'm not ignoring that, but him playing well in two games four years apart doesn't automatically put him in the same class as guys that are clearly better than him year after year.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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You are absolutely ignoring all of the great play that brought him to those SB MVPs by focusing just on the two games, not the entire postseasons leading to those games, or the regular season last year where he carried a flawed team to the playoffs before the defense got their **** together and let him carry them the rest of the way.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Strange that people sort of question Brees' HOF resume. He's not only Canton bound, he's gonna go first ballot.

He took a perennial cellar dweller franchise to the SB and WON IT.
The Saints are one of those franchises if you quarterback them to a SB, you're going to get all kinds of love from the HOF.
And his numbers as sick. No question about Brees at all.

If people remember that you don't need to be a first ballot selection to get into the HOF, I don't see how any of these guys isn't inducted into Canton 10-20 years after their retirement.

Guys like Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are on HOF career tracks IMO. If Ryan wins a SB for the Falcons, the first in franchise history, his ticket is punched.

I hate to say it, but if Romo ever wins a SB, he's getting in at some point too.


These guys collectively are so much better than their peers it's easy to see from a distance why their HOF candidacies are so strong.

There's no way I'm putting a rookie or 2nd year QB from 2012 on this list. And I'd loan RG3 my lunch money and be happy about it, but there are several forks in the road guys like CK, RG3 and Luck's careers could take in the near future.

If they trend like they played last season, yeah all three have Canton potential. Until then it's too soon.
So your criteria is that if a QB wins a Superbowl they are are a Hall of Famer? Quick someone tell Trent Dilfer he made it. There is no way Flacco or Ryan are on a Hall of Fame track right now. QBs are gonna need more then just one Superbowl and decent stats to get in the Hall of Fame.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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You are absolutely ignoring all of the great play that brought him to those SB MVPs by focusing just on the two games, not the entire postseasons leading to those games, or the regular season last year where he carried a flawed team to the playoffs before the defense got their **** together and let him carry them the rest of the way.
this is your calling card? eli manning "carrying" a team to a 9-7 record and then winning once his defense starts playing well? good for him, but this kind of proves why he isn't elite. all the other guys have also played well in the playoffs, what separates them from eli manning is the fact that they do it all the time. rodgers carried his team to a 15-1 record. brady has been doing to same thing for years. eli is a great qb, i'm not denying that. i just don't know how you can actually argue that he is in the same class as these guys when it is painfully obvious that he isn't. i understand you're a giants fan, but c'mon. you're saying eli manning is as good as tom brady and aaron rodgers? really?
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Eli is to inconsistent right now. He will have a great year and then totally stink the next one. Eli stats also have not been that great. He has only 1 season where he threw over 30 TD's and has a completion percentage barely over 60%.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Drew Brees is a first ballot HOFer and it's a lock.

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completely forget wins, rings, TD's or yards. stats are irrelevant.

you look at how good of a QB they are. throwing the football, that kind of stuff...
By throwing the football, are you saying that it's about how beautifuly you play or are you saying it's about the impact you have ?

If wins, rings and stats are not some of the ways to evaluate greatness, it's safe to say we don't have the same criterion and it's useless to debate.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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No, Eli is better than them in the playoffs and big moments.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Minus his SB run, Aaron Rodgers has been extremely mediocre in the playoffs.

Oh hey look, I can play this game too.

Eli and Ben are still underrated qbs. Ben more so than Eli. At least Eli gets some elite consideration. For some unknown reason, Ben still doesn't get the credit he deserves.

Bc apparently throwing more touchdowns in the regular season is more important than your performance in the playoffs. Or something.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Would be interesting to see if anyone other than a Giants fan actually agreed that Eli was in the same class as Rodgers and Brady. I don't actually think i've ever seen that. Unsurprisingly.

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Minus his SB run, Aaron Rodgers has been extremely mediocre in the playoffs.
This isn't true at all. His first ever playoff game was probably better than any playoff game Eli Manning has ever had. 2012 he wasn't mediocre at all and Eli Manning couldn't even lead his team to the playoffs.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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You should talk to YFS and other non-giants fans who'd actually watched Eli play before he won a SB.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Minus his SB run, Aaron Rodgers has been extremely mediocre in the playoffs.
His first playoff start at NFC Champion Arizona, with Kurt Warner was mediocre?

Rodgers, in his first playoff start, led the Packers to 45 points, was 28 of 42 for a Packers all-time postseason-record 422 yards and 4 TDs, despite being harassed all day long and sacked 5 times. He also scrambled for a touchdown. Passer rating was 121.3. Unfortunately, the Packers defense didn't lay a finger on Warner, or cover anyone, and Warner's rating was 154.1 and he threw more touchdown passes (5) than he had incomplete passes (4) in the game.

• It was just the second time in the Super Bowl era in which both QBs threw for at least 300 yards and four pass TDs in the same game, and Kurt Warner was involved in both. The other was the 1999 Divisional playoff game against Jeff George and the Vikings.

• Aaron Rodgers set a Packers single-game postseason record with 422 pass yards, and Green Bay scored its highest points total in a postseason game, ever.

But you're right, he's been beaten by Eli in the post-season and regular season now two times in a row. And Eli has 2 rings to Rodgers' 1. Can't argue that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Eli and Ben are still underrated qbs. Ben more so than Eli. At least Eli gets some elite consideration. For some unknown reason, Ben still doesn't get the credit he deserves.

Bc apparently throwing more touchdowns in the regular season is more important than your performance in the playoffs. Or something.
I agree, Big Ben has been underrated. He did try and lose their first Super Bowl vs Seattle. No performance like that should have resulted in a ring.

Eli has come up huge twice for those rings. Can't take that away.

Regular seasons are a bigger body of work, and you can't get by on a fluke couple of weeks. Look at the record-setters for passing, TDs, ratings, etc... those are great ones. Marino never won a ring, nobody would argue that he wasn't great.

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Old 05-16-2013, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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the obvious:

1. tom brady
2. peyton manning
3. drew breezy
4. aaron rodgers

guys i would have a hard time believing they wouldn't get in
5. eli manning
6. ben roethlisberger

well, i mean he won a super bowl therefore he is an 'elite' quarterback
7. wacko flacco

well, these guys have better stats therefore they deserve to make it
8. tony romo
9. matt ryan

these guys are clear locks for the hall of fame based on their rookie (or second year) seasons
10. andrew luck
11. rg3
12. russell wilson
13. colin kaepernick
14. cam newton

this guy finally has weapons i think he has a great shot
15. sam bradford

this guy throws for 5000 yards a year if he stays healthy he's a lock
16. matthew stafford

this guy was backup for aaron rodgers, he has a chance to be an elite qb
17. matt flynn

this guy looks like ryan gosling
18. alex smith

if you are going to include some of those guys how can you not include
19. andy dalton
20. matt schaub
21. jay cutler
22. philip rivers

ryan tannehill and geno smith are on the bubble. we will know whether or not geno smith is a hall of fame caliber quarterback after the first few weeks this season. oh, and i'm convinced espn would discuss tebow's hall of fame credentials if he were to retire today.

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Old 05-16-2013, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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If we are naming just "locks" for the HOF at this very moment, I'd go:

Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers (yes already a lock)
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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Seems like 6 current players is the consensus. It will be interesting to see how they all do and progress until the end of their respective careers.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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Rodgers is not a lock.
He has to do more, longer.

Sterling Sharpe and Bo Jackson were locks. Then their careers ended, and they never made it.

Only Brady & Manning have already earned it.
Brees is close. Rodgers right behind him.
Funny thing is Brees was let go, and Miami passed on him. Well not funny for Dolphans.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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His first playoff start at NFC Champion Arizona, with Kurt Warner was mediocre?

Rodgers, in his first playoff start, led the Packers to 45 points, was 28 of 42 for a Packers all-time postseason-record 422 yards and 4 TDs, despite being harassed all day long and sacked 5 times. He also scrambled for a touchdown. Passer rating was 121.3. Unfortunately, the Packers defense didn't lay a finger on Warner, or cover anyone, and Warner's rating was 154.1 and he threw more touchdown passes (5) than he had incomplete passes (4) in the game.
he also lost the game by fumbling for a TD
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Rodgers is not a lock.
He has to do more, longer.

Sterling Sharpe and Bo Jackson were locks. Then their careers ended, and they never made it.

Only Brady & Manning have already earned it.
Brees is close. Rodgers right behind him.
Funny thing is Brees was let go, and Miami passed on him. Well not funny for Dolphans.
Sterling will get there. He has to.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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Yeah the good ole debate, who do we sign? Dante C. or Brees with a bum shoulder? However, we don't know how productive Brees would have been in that system. But things happen for a reason and Brees is on the doorstop of being a HOFer.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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he also lost the game by fumbling for a TD
Yep, that happened.
Brady also fumbled in that snow game vs Oakland to lose it.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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So you work out which players are in the 'best' group.

Tier 1
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees

Tier 2
Eli Manning

He isn't in the same group as those guys and that isn't really very debatable. He just isn't in the same class as them. They are in the elite class and Eli isn't in it with them. I just assumed that meant he isn't elite.
This is the best, and very valid, argument against Eli and Roethlisberger. At no point in their careers were they even in the conversation for the top tier of current QBs.

EDIT: I do think both are probably locks, but I don't think I agree that they should be in.
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he also lost the game by fumbling for a TD
It was on 3rd down at the Packers 24. Whether he fumbles, throws an incomplete pass, or gets a 5 yard gain the Cardinals win the game. He certainly didn't win them the game at end, but it's not like he lost his team the game because of the fumble. Plus I remember there being a very obvious penalty on Arizona that play that went uncalled.

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Yep, that happened.
Brady also fumbled in that snow game vs Oakland to lose it.
What?

Last edited by Mufasa : 05-16-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Locks

Manning
Brady

Pretty much a lock

Brees

Most likely

Rodgers
Eli
Big Ben

Brady and Manning pretty much define the NFL while they were at the top of their game and still continue to produce at an elite level late into their careers. Brees has been perfect in NO since he got their after a good run in SD. He brought a title to a team on the ropes. Great player but he doesn't put the team on his back as much as Brady or Manning.

Rodgers has hit the ground in a sprint after a lengthy waiting time on the bench. The stability and WR talent in GB has been good to him, and he has been good for them. He just needs to continue his productive ways and he will surely be in.

Eli has been up and down at times but he was absolutely played at an elite level at times. He made the plays to win when it counted. He is probably the #2 QB I'd take in crunch time behind Brady. The gap between Eli and those above him comes from his regular season play. All of the above a pretty much playoff teams year in and year out. With Eli it isn't a lock, but when he gets there he plays as well as you can. 2 Super Bowls don't lie.

Roethlisberger is a playmaker. He hold on to the ball so long and it leads to two things, big plays and injuries.The man takes way too many hits but he is as clutch as it comes. He is just a clutch player and that is one of the best qualities a QB can have. He was carried through his first Super Bowl, but his late TD to Holmes is one of the best plays. He too doesnt have the consistency I want, but he is another clutch player. Being a Steeler helps his chances a ton.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, and Drew Brees are all headed to Canton. The only person I don't think is a lock at this point 100% is Rodgers because he has had only 4 fantastic years. The only thing stopping him at this point is injury.
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