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Old 05-22-2013, 05:55 PM    (permalink
Sportsfan486
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I'd probably put him somewhere between 3 and 5 as far as best QBs ever. Frankly, not winning a Super Bowl bothers even me and I find it an overrated indicator of QB success.

Still, if you're the QB you're the teams leader and not winning a Super Bowl is an indictment of your leadership.
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Old 05-22-2013, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
I'm sure he kicked the tires in jest, but I doubt he was serious, which is why it didn't happen.

LOL at that bogus cocaine rumor. Tis' the offseason.
Meh, those cocaine rumors went on for several years. I think that most early-80's coke rumors were probably true, and I don't judge the players negatively. The stigma in 1982 wasn't the same as it is now. Just look at cocaine-era NBA players at the time, with their razor thin builds and bloodshot eyes. It was pretty widespread, but it wasn't as obvious in the games where they wear helmets.

I'm guessing that the SF "trade talks" were just meant to send a message to the franchise QB, similar to the situation in SD at the time.

I feel like Marino's legacy is going to go the same path as Tarkenton's, where they're downgraded just because they couldn't win a championship in a team sport, and I think that's kind of a shame.

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Old 05-22-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Meh......

I feel like Marino's legacy is going to go the same path as Tarkenton's, where they're downgraded just because they couldn't win a championship in a team sport, and I think that's kind of a shame.
No phucking way he's down the path with Francis Tarkenton.

What Marino did, the records he shattered, that's unprecedented. He's thought of as a top-5 all-time QB by almost everyone who has some history knowledge.

Tark is page 2 or 3.......

Meh.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Tarkenton owned practically every single throwing record when he retired. And he played in an era that was very difficult for quarterbacks. I think the Tarkenton comparison is legit.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Tarkenton owned practically every single throwing record when he retired.
Single season passing, or longevity?
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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Not winning the Superbowl is one thing, only getting to one is another when you consider how bad the AFC was during most of his career.
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Not winning the Superbowl is one thing, only getting to one is another when you consider how bad the AFC was during most of his career.
Right, that speaks volumes about how bad their defense was. And running game.
Remember AIR CORYELL, Dan Fouts, Winslow, Chandler, Jefferson, Joyner, Chuck Muncie (RIP).... historic offense. Never made it to a Super Bowl. Same AFC.

On the flip side, Buffalo made 4 straight... which is the most overlooked amazing almost-great accomplishment in modern NFL.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:42 AM    (permalink
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Meh, those cocaine rumors went on for several years. I think that most early-80's coke rumors were probably true, and I don't judge the players negatively. The stigma in 1982 wasn't the same as it is now. Just look at cocaine-era NBA players at the time, with their razor thin builds and bloodshot eyes. It was pretty widespread, but it wasn't as obvious in the games where they wear helmets.

I'm guessing that the SF "trade talks" were just meant to send a message to the franchise QB, similar to the situation in SD at the time.

I feel like Marino's legacy is going to go the same path as Tarkenton's, where they're downgraded just because they couldn't win a championship in a team sport, and I think that's kind of a shame.
Yeah, but they were mere speculation. You could literally say that about anyone notable in pop culture in the 1980's. Especially sports. Didn't really mean anything because it was publicized in a magazine.

I'm not sure why Walsh would be sending a message to his quarterback, when he wasn't the reason the 49ers sucked in 1982, and the year before they won the Super Bowl with him. The situation in San Diego was different. Dan Fouts was in the middle of a contract issue.
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:53 AM    (permalink
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Walsh was probably just in love with Elway like everyone at the time. Elway and Walsh together could have been a treat. When Walsh really thought hard about it, he just couldn't do it; which is fair enough. i
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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Single season passing, or longevity?
Honestly I don't know. I remember NFLN discussing his career and saying he held every record when he retired.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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The fact that Don Shula couldn't win a superbowl with this guy pulling the trigger for a decade and a half is one of the biggest failures in NFL history. Could only even get him to ONE, and that was his 2nd year in the league.

It was Shula's loyalty to Olivadotti that cost Marino any chance to hoist the trophy. Those defenses were just god awful.

Nevermind the fact that Miami had no running game. Marino didn't need a running game. He needed a defense that could hold the better teams in the AFC to under 30+ points in the playoffs... that's all he needed. And they couldn't do it.

Marino carried the Dolphins for nearly 2 decades. They would've been irrelevant long before this current era of putridity had it not been for Dan Marino. All the bad drafts under Shula during this time were camoflauged by the presence of the single greatest passer that there's ever been.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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The problem I have with that argument is that it's the Peyton Manning excuse.

Sure, he had no run game, and his defense wasn't great. But that's bc they allocated their resources in other areas, areas which allowed Marino to put up the gaudy numbers that he put up.

Same with Dan Fouts, Peyton Manning etc. You can't have it all. They decided to build their team around Marino's arm and beat teams by outscoring them. It was a strategy that didn't work.

But had they allocated resources to the other parts of the team, who's to say that Marino would put up the #s he put up? It's a give and take. You can't have it all.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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The problem I have with that argument is that it's the Peyton Manning excuse.

Sure, he had no run game, and his defense wasn't great. But that's bc they allocated their resources in other areas, areas which allowed Marino to put up the gaudy numbers that he put up.

Same with Dan Fouts, Peyton Manning etc. You can't have it all. They decided to build their team around Marino's arm and beat teams by outscoring them. It was a strategy that didn't work.

But had they allocated resources to the other parts of the team, who's to say that Marino would put up the #s he put up? It's a give and take. You can't have it all.


Peyton Manning had a running game. One of the best in the league.

You obviously don't understand what "no running game" means in respect to Marino. He had nothing. Look at the backs he had to play with.

A guy like Elway had opportunity after opportunity to play in superbowls throughout his career and always lost... until Terrell Davis came along.

Marino only had ONE shot, and it was against one of the best dynasties in NFL history.

I watched Marino slice up one of the greatest defenses there's ever been in the history of the NFL on a Monday Night in 1985 against the Bears. The only game that team lost all season.

Miami didn't need "it all" during the Marino era. Like I said, they needed a defense that could simply get the other offense off the field every now and then. A defense that could hold a team like the Bills to below 35+ points in the playoffs. That's not "having it all'... it's having a defense with a pulse for ****'s sake.

Go look at the Bills and the scores they always put up against Miami in the playoffs. I believe they averaged about 36 points/game vs. Miami's pathetic defense in the playoffs. The only reason the games were even competitive was because of Marino.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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I still was blown away in that 30 for 30 segment how close Marino came to becoming a Steeler. Draft rumors about drug use literally changed the destiny of multiple NFL franchises.
That was probably one of the best football specials I have ever seen, I wasn't expecting it to be so in depth. but even with the rumors, supposedly the Steelers were sure they weren't true but still opted to go elsewhere. He was a hometown kid, even with Terry Bradshaw it's unbelieveable they passed on him knowing the talent that he was.


Then Bradshaw ending his career on the first game of the following season had to sting even more. Scary to think about what his career would have been there instead.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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The Dolphins didn't win Super Bowls under Marino because they drafted as poorly as any other team after the 1983 draft.

The '82 Dolphins got to the Super Bowl on the strength of their Killer B's defense which featured 7 defensive starters with a surname beginning with B.

By 1984 they were back in the Super Bowl with a young Marino but fell short against a 15-1 San Francisco team playing in their own neighbourhood.

By 1986 the Defense had aged and declined to the stage where they were 26th in points conceded and 26th in yardage in a 28 team NFL.

What killed the Dolphins were those terrible drafts after Marino. They never found him a decent RB and 1st rd picks were spent on Lorenzo Hampton and Sammie Smith, who was taken 9th overall in 1989. Both players finished with less than 2,000 career rushing yards. John Avery was another 1st rd RB bust much later in Marino's career.

Troy Stradford, Sammie Smith, Lorenzo Hampton, Karim-Abdul-Jabbar, Mark Higgs, Bernie Parmalee, JJ Johnson, Woody Bennett, Tony Nathan and Andra Franklin all led the Dolphins in rushing during the Marino era. That's 10 RBs and only one (Abdul-Jabbar) ever cracked 1,000 yds in a Dolphins uniform.

The Killer B's got old and were replaced by 1st rd busts Jackie Shipp, John Bosa and Eric Kumerow. Bosa and Kumerow were DEs who finished with 12 career sacks between them. Second round picks were spent on a DE and 3 LBs during the mid to late 80s and John Offerdahl was the only success. The other three players were total busts. That's seven defensive picks in the first two rounds on DEs and LBs and 6 were busts. Combine that with the Hampton and Smith disappointments during that time and Marino's prime years were wasted because the Dolphins drafted like Matt Millen.

From 1984 (Marino's 1st full year as starter) to 1994, Miami's best rankings on defense were 7th and 10th. The other 9 seasons the Dolphins were ranked in the bottom half of the NFL, including the bottom six as many as 6 times in 7 seasons (1985-91).

Their defensive ranking from 1984-94 in a 28 team NFL were as follows:
19th, 23rd, 26th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 7th, 25th, 10th, 20th, 19th.

The Dolphins best season and most balanced team during that span was in 1990. The D were ranked 7th in yards and 4th in scoring. Miami were 12-4 that year but Buffalo won the division at 13-3 and beat the Dolphins 44-34 in the divisional playoff. Can't really blame Dan for that one either. The offense played their part with 34 points. The Dolphins best defense of Marino's career up to that point faceplanted by conceding 44. And those Bills teams were simply loaded on both sides of the ball. That was the first of 4 straight AFC titles for Buffalo.

By 1998, Miami had found itself a Defense and led the NFL in defensive scoring. However the offense around Marino was by now very mediocre. The running game featuring Abdul-Jabbar and Avery had a terrible 3.4 ypc average. The leading receivers were OJ McDuffie, Orande Gadsden and Lamar Thomas. Now compare that to what Denver boasted in the late 90s.

The Broncos and Elway didn't just win because they added Terrell Davis. They were the best and most well balanced team in football between 1997-98. Besides Davis, the 2,000 yd RB, Denver had the league's best OL, including a HOF tackle in Gary Zimmerman. Elway could throw to an All-Pro/HOF TE in Shannon Sharpe and two very good WRs in Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey. The defense was Top 8 and the Broncos went 14-2 on their way to the 2nd consecutive title. Everything just came together at the right time.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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It ain't easy getting to Super Bowls.
Think about this: 1997 season.
That was the last season Farve got to one.

Those Dolphin defenses were awful, as pointed out.
And the RB's? Icky.
Not Woods.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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Something few people are aware of...and maybe I'm just making too big an assumption here...was that Walsh didn't really like Joe Montana.

He didn't love him coming out in 1979. He wanted Steve Fuller, and when Fuller was gone, he reportedly preferred Steve Dils and 49ers' scouting director Tony Razzano had to talk Walsh out of him and into Montana. He was still hoping to get Dils later, and when Dils was gone, Walsh's response was, "DAMN, I knew we should have taken Dils."

Time goes on, Montana has the back injury, and Walsh trades for Young and a quarterback controversy eventually emerges in 1988, with Walsh clearly wanting Young to take the job.

Walsh would never do anything publicly but praise all of his players to the moon, but I don't think he ever truly considered Montana "his guy."


As for Marino...watching him, I've always gotten the sense that Richmond Webb was one of the most overrated linemen in NFL history. So many times he would get smoked, only for Marino to get the ball out there with the flick of a wrist and not get sacked.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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that Ken Obrien pick instead of Marino was the one that blew my mind.

I couldn't for the life of me understand the whole things because Marino was clearly the second best QB behind Elway. There was always the marijuana rumor but even that was never verified. today they'd give the guy the keys to the city if that was his only flaw.
In my opinion, Elway and Marino were co-number ones in 1983. Accorsi foolishly didn't see it that way, but he should have.

As for the third best QB that year, though, it may not have been Kelly, Eason, or O'Brien, but this guy:

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/201...ie-collier-rg3

Reggie Collier, QB at So. Miss, was 6-4, ran a 4.5 40, and had a big arm. He was the RGIII of 1983 (just like RB Gary Anderson of the Chargers was the Reggie Bush of 1983). He even wore the same number that Griffin wears.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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In my opinion, Elway and Marino were co-number ones in 1983. Accorsi foolishly didn't see it that way, but he should have.

As for the third best QB that year, though, it may not have been Kelly, Eason, or O'Brien, but this guy:

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/201...ie-collier-rg3

Reggie Collier, QB at So. Miss, was 6-4, ran a 4.5 40, and had a big arm. He was the RGIII of 1983 (just like RB Gary Anderson of the Chargers was the Reggie Bush of 1983). He even wore the same number that Griffin wears.


Not trying to come off as a homer.... but it will def. sound that way.

Hind sight is 20 - 20, so looking back you have Elway, Marino, Kelly all HOF qb's that came out of that class. So you can say 1a or 1b...whatever you want.


But just like the 30 for 30 made clear, or anytime you hear about QBs in the draft they are measured up to Elway. He was/is still the best QB to come out, he had a ROCKET arm. BUT WHAT I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE OVERLOOK was his athletic ability because he was white or just heard about his arm... he was the Yankee's 1st pick in the draft that year and he was drafted to play left field...just because he didnt run around ALL THE TIME doesnt/shouldnt take away from his ability to... Ironically enough Andrew Luck another stanford alum posses the same combo, great arm and above athletic ability. (Just to point out Deion Sanders played left field..just saying you have to be athletic to play the position)


But to say Marino should have been 1a or 1b is not giving Elway credit he deserves.


ANOTHER thing is if you want to mention not having talent in Marino's defense as a reason why he never made it to more than 1 SB.... go look at the 1st three times Elway went... HE SINGLE HANDEDLY is the sole reason the Broncos went to the 1st three.

By the time the 1997 and 1998 wins came around we had actually built a team and gave him players to work with... But dont act like he always had great players around him, because the 1st three times the Broncos went to the SB outside of Elway they might have had the least amount of talent to ever make it

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Old 05-24-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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I think Marino's inability to make it to multiple SBs should be a fair critique of him.

People forget that the AFC was a joke back then. Every year the AFC had the luxury of losing the SB to the NFC. The NFCCG was the real SB of the 80s and 90s all the way up to 97 or so.

That's why the Bills were able to go to 4 straight SBs. The AFC was incredibly weak. Marino only made it once in a watered down AFC. That should be held against him.

During that era, there were probably 4 or 5 teams in the NFC that were better than the best AFC team every year.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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A little more in-depth History: Miami's running game while Marino ran the show.

1983 - 2150 yards (13th in the NFL) at 3.8 YPC (23rd in the NFL) Team: 12-4
1984 - 1918 yards (16th in the NFL) at 4.0 YPC (16th in the NFL) Team: 14-2
1985 - 1729 yards (18th in the NFL) at 3.9 YPC (18th in the NFL) Team: 12-4
1986 - 1545 yards (25th in the NFL) at 4.4 YPC (4th in the NFL) Team: 8-8
1987 - 1662 yards (23rd in the NFL) at 4.1 YPC (10th in the NFL) Team: 8-7
1988 - 1205 yards (28th in the NFL) at 3.6 YPC (23rd in the NFL) Team: 6-10
1989 - 1330 yards (27th in the NFL) at 3.3 YPC (28th in the NFL) Team: 8-8
1990 - 1535 yards (22nd in the NFL) at 3.7 YPC (26th in the NFL) Team: 12-4
1991 - 1352 yards (25th in the NFL) at 3.6 YPC (21st in the NFL) Team: 8-8
1992 - 1525 yards (24th in the NFL) at 3.7 YPC (20th in the NFL) Team: 11-5
1993 - 1459 yards (25th in the NFL) at 3.5 YPC (26th in the NFL) Marino only played 5 games. Team: 9-7
1994 - 1658 yards (13th in the NFL) at 3.8 YPC (10th in the NFL) Team: 10-6
1995 - 1506 yards (21st in the NFL) at 3.6 YPC (23rd in the NFL) Team: 9-7
1996 - 1622 yards (19th in the NFL) at 3.5 YPC (21st in the NFL) Team: 8-8
1997 - 1343 yards (29th in the NFL) at 3.1 YPC (30th in the NFL) Team: 9-7
1998 - 1535 yards (24th in the NFL) at 3.4 YPC (30th in the NFL) Team: 10-6
1999 - 1453 yards (22nd in the NFL) at 3.3 YPC (28th in the NFL) Team: 9-7

Marino retires

2000 - 1894 yards (14th in the NFL) at 3.8 YPC (23rd in the NFL) Team: 11-5
2001 - 1664 yards (23rd in the NFL) at 3.5 YPC (29th in the NFL) Team: 11-5

Ricky Williams arrives

2002 - 2502 yards (2nd in the NFL) at 4.7 YPC (4th in the NFL) Team: 9-7
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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True, although I think "his legacy" is pretty damn good/high.

Looking at those highlights, as well as the highlights of the greatest Monday Night game ever, 1985 Chicago @ Miami, and the 1984 playoff game Pittsburgh vs Miami, it showed that Marino was often pressured big time, early & often. He didn't often have a nice pocket.
I don't think any of today's QBs, even Rodgers who gets sacked 50 times a year, would have ever racked up stats close to that Marino when having to backpeddle and throw of the back foot all the time as I saw in many of those highlights.
I loved watching Marino play, it was a lot of fun watching him throw the ball on almost every play, however, I am still stuck on Jimmy Johnson's analysis of Marino when he coached him, Jimmy said that Marino could never be a championship QB, because Marino insisted on throwing the ball way too much. Every time Johnson called a running play, Marino would audible at the LOS and change it to a passing play no matter what Johnson told him pregame.

Yes, Marino's stats are wonderful, but no rings puts him way behind the top QB's of all time IMO. He was just too hard headed to adjust in order to be a winner. Elway, on the other hand was the exact opposite under Shanahan, Shanahan insisted that Elway switch his play calling so the Broncos could win championships and Elway complied, and Denver began running the ball all the way to 2 championships, with Elway using the pass only when it was necessary.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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I think Marino's inability to make it to multiple SBs should be a fair critique of him.

People forget that the AFC was a joke back then. Every year the AFC had the luxury of losing the SB to the NFC. The NFCCG was the real SB of the 80s and 90s all the way up to 97 or so.

That's why the Bills were able to go to 4 straight SBs. The AFC was incredibly weak. Marino only made it once in a watered down AFC. That should be held against him.

During that era, there were probably 4 or 5 teams in the NFC that were better than the best AFC team every year.
This is a good point that I had forgotten about. I think the NFC won something like 13 consecutive Super Bowls. For a while, you really did feel like the winner of the NFCCG was going to just walk onto the field and win the Super Bowl. It seemed like it was a pattern that would never end.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Also think it's interesting that Miami's record didn't change much without Marino.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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This is a good point that I had forgotten about. I think the NFC won something like 13 consecutive Super Bowls. For a while, you really did feel like the winner of the NFCCG was going to just walk onto the field and win the Super Bowl. It seemed like it was a pattern that would never end.
13 straight AFC wins from 85 to 97 is correct. Only 2 of those wins where in single digits.
In that 13 year span the AFC beat the NFC 37.7 - 16.8 on average, and the 4 biggest blowouts in Super Bowl history all happend in that era...
No wonder the DVDs in my Super Bowl box set from that time is collecting dust.
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