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Old 04-24-2007, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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I think New England is the best case of the blend of talent and coaching in recent memory. In the salary cap era, you cannot build the star teams like the old school 49ers, Cowboys, Redskins, Bills, etc. Coaching is much more significant now than it was then because of talent scarcity between the cap and the expansion.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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I think New England is the best case of the blend of talent and coaching in recent memory. In the salary cap era, you cannot build the star teams like the old school 49ers, Cowboys, Redskins, Bills, etc. Coaching is much more significant now than it was then because of talent scarcity between the cap and the expansion.
You can also make an argument that having a franchise qb is more important now than ever, because of parity.

Also having a GM who can constantly replenish talent with great drafting.

Its hard to point at one single factor in this topic. I think a good front office, solid coaching, and talent all play a huge role in sustaining success over a long period of time.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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I think that the teams that recognized this earlier have had more sustained success in the salary cap era than others. The Eagles, Broncos, Colts, and Patriots have done the best job over the last 6-7 years.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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I think that the teams that recognized this earlier have had more sustained success in the salary cap era than others. The Eagles, Broncos, Colts, and Patriots have done the best job over the last 6-7 years.
No question.

You can make an argument for the Steelers too.

One thing that stands out to me with all those teams is that they are very stable at HC. They don't fire coaches, or change schemes readily. Theyve all kept the same scheme/coaches and have constantly replenished talent in those schemes to keep up at a competitve rate year in and year out.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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No question.

You can make an argument for the Steelers too.

One thing that stands out to me with all those teams is that they are very stable at HC. They don't fire coaches, or change schemes readily. Theyve all kept the same scheme/coaches and have constantly replenished talent in those schemes to keep up at a competitve rate year in and year out.

Then maybe even more important than Coaching ability and skill, is coaching continuity. Being able to have the same coach teach the talent the same plays, skills, schemes helps both the coaching develop as well as the talent. It's probably a blend of both you need to be contnually sucessful, but then if thats the case, maybe the General Managers and Team Presidents have a lot more to do with success than coaching or talent.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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Good catch on the Steelers. My bad. No offense to the Pitt fans. The point about coaching is very true, but it's also a case of the teams making solid hires in the first place. Shanahan has 2 rings and a consistent playoff track record. Cowher was consistently good for his career. Andy Reid went 5-11, then 11-5, then won 5 of the next 6 division titles. Belicheck has been amazingly consistent, even with some roster and coaching turnover. If you find the right coaches and give them the ability to hire the right staff, the results will come.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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Good catch on the Steelers. My bad. No offense to the Pitt fans. The point about coaching is very true, but it's also a case of the teams making solid hires in the first place. Shanahan has 2 rings and a consistent playoff track record. Cowher was consistently good for his career. Andy Reid went 5-11, then 11-5, then won 5 of the next 6 division titles. Belicheck has been amazingly consistent, even with some roster and coaching turnover. If you find the right coaches and give them the ability to hire the right staff, the results will come.
This is also where age can be a factor.

If you want coaching continuity, you need to hire a coach when he's relatively "young" per se. You can't hire a guy in his late 50s/early 60s and expect coaching continuity because coaching production falls off with age as well.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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Then maybe even more important than Coaching ability and skill, is coaching continuity. Being able to have the same coach teach the talent the same plays, skills, schemes helps both the coaching develop as well as the talent. It's probably a blend of both you need to be contnually sucessful, but then if thats the case, maybe the General Managers and Team Presidents have a lot more to do with success than coaching or talent.
GMs have been underrated for quite some time now. Shopping for groceries is half the battle.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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With the salary cap, scouting and drafting are really the only way to have a sustained competitive advantage in the NFL. GM's are finally getting their due for that reason.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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As a Patriots fan, most of the Pats best players were not elite talents coming out of college or when they arrived in NE from other teams. We have seen guys like Tom Brady, Asante Samuel, and Mike Vrabel become great players in NE despite being overlooked by scouts and/or previous NFL teams. Granted you cannot win with a low talent level, but I think coaching is more important.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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The Pats are great at identifying the skills that a player needs to succeed for them, then they deploy that player in such a way that they meet with success. Success builds confidence and trust, then they can teach the players more skills and develop them. Mike Vrabel had limited skills coming out of school, but he was smart and quick. Belichek and Crennel slowly built his skill set until he became a complete player.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Bill Belichick has one three superbowls with subpar talent at some positions. I don't think anyone would argue with me saying he had the most talent in the NFL. I would choose coach.
I think that is a vast overstatement. There is a portrayal that New England doesn't have anyone other than Brady. They've always had a bevy of very good players on both sides of the ball. They grade out as at least above average at most positions. Especially in the trenches, at Linebacker, in the secondary. They never had the glitz and glamor at the skill positions, true, but they always had multiple elite players at their respective positions. The '05 season is testimony of my point; their elite defensive players were injured, and because of that their defense was horrible. When his elite players were knocked out, and the defense was yielding big numbers to such Quarterbacks as Matt Schaub, Gus Frerrote, and Aaron Brooks, this 'Belichick is a genius' mystique should have disappeared. It should have never arisen in the first place, because of how mediocre the Browns were under him. He couldn't overcome sub-par talent then, either.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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The Pats players were, for the most part, picked or signed to fit the scheme, not the other way around. That's why you sometimes see Pats players leave and not do as well in other defenses. Ty Law, even though he was injured, has never had the same degree of success.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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The Pats players were, for the most part, picked or signed to fit the scheme, not the other way around. That's why you sometimes see Pats players leave and not do as well in other defenses. Ty Law, even though he was injured, has never had the same degree of success.
Ty Law was coming off an injury, at age 33. Same with Lawyer Milloy, he too was getting up there in age. I wouldn't expect them to have the same kind of success, as in their prime. They usually only get rid of a player, just before his age catches up with him. So that isn't a great barometer of how players do, outside of New England.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Yea Shiver is right, the Pats have always had very good all-around talent. They have been thin at a few positions but if you look at the roster it is loaded with talent on both sides of the ball. There has been a large amount of talent on the Pats since they won it all in 2001, but the coaching, evaluation of talent, and drafting is what put the team over the top.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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That is a fair point. Asante Samuel could be the first major Pats defender to leave with productive years left. He'd be an interesting test case.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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That is a fair point. Asante Samuel could be the first major Pats defender to leave with productive years left. He'd be an interesting test case.
Deion Branch and Givens left too as fairly highly touted offensive players. They were productive in the Pats systemized offense but the jury is still out on how they will preform outside of NE. I'm not sure if you guys are only talking about defense though, which would make them fairly irrelevant.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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Bill Belichick has one three superbowls with subpar talent at some positions. I don't think anyone would argue with me saying he had the most talent in the NFL. I would choose coach.
Hit the nail on the head
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Deion Branch and Givens left too as fairly highly touted offensive players. They were productive in the Pats systemized offense but the jury is still out on how they will preform outside of NE. I'm not sure if you guys are only talking about defense though, which would make them fairly irrelevant.
I was referring more to the defense. The Pats are built to stop the opponent first, then take advantage on offense second. That is why Brady never had a true elite WR corps. Givens and Patten have been busts. Branch was injured/suspended, but I think he will be productive.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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I was referring more to the defense. The Pats are built to stop the opponent first, then take advantage on offense second. That is why Brady never had a true elite WR corps. Givens and Patten have been busts. Branch was injured/suspended, but I think he will be productive.
Alright, then yeah those two I mentioned don't have much relevance at all to the topic haha
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Deion Branch and Givens left too as fairly highly touted offensive players. They were productive in the Pats systemized offense but the jury is still out on how they will preform outside of NE. I'm not sure if you guys are only talking about defense though, which would make them fairly irrelevant.
That's irrelevant to what I was saying, actually. The point is; some thing that Belichick is this genius, who can make chicken salad out of chicken -you know what-, hence why I mentioned how bad the Patriots defense was in '05, when he didn't have talent. Those receivers are a product of Tom Brady's greatness.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Your metaphor didn't make sense. Anyone can make chicken salad out of chicken. I think you mean that Belichick can make chicken salad out of chicken poop...
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Shiver is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Ha, ha, wise guy.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:14 PM    (permalink
bsaza2358
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Well, you're so very rarely wrong, I wanted to be there to point it out.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
That's irrelevant to what I was saying, actually. The point is; some thing that Belichick is this genius, who can make chicken salad out of chicken -you know what-, hence why I mentioned how bad the Patriots defense was in '05, when he didn't have talent. Those receivers are a product of Tom Brady's greatness.
I don't think I got it wrong.
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