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Old 04-24-2007, 03:18 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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I know basketball is a completely different sport than football but it's still a team concept. There was no way on God's green Earth that George Mason and coach Jim Laranaga were better than the University of Connecticuit. The Huskies had a team with 3 first round selections in that June's draft and were the #1 seed. George Mason didn't have the size or the speed to compete on paper, but due to tactics and coaching abilities of Laranaga George Mason was able to pull the upset over a team that was superior. Coaching has all to do with a team's success and talent is part of it but not the majority. The Dallas Mavericks had all the talent in the world but until Avery Johnson took over and actually coached them up they had no success prior to that. In baseball Jimmy Leyland took a team that was looked at by many has bottom of the barrell and brought them a division title and got them to the World Series. Bill Belicheck took a team led by an inexperienced 6th round selection in Tom Brady to the Super Bowl and won it becuase he put the team in situations to win without forcing Brady to be the deciding factor. The New Orleans Sainst selected #2 in the 2006 NFL Draft but due to hiring of Sean Payton and some fortunate additions to the team the Sainst made it to the NFC Championship. The roster was improved but Payton coached the Sainst up to a level where they were feared by the NFL and almost got to the Super Bowl. I could go on all day but I think thats all the evidence thats needed.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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By the way; I find it irritating the the rules prevent "Keep it clean and don't post anything that wouldn't fly in a PG-13 movie," yet it won't let me say a lot of things that, in fact, would "fly." That rule either needs to be reworded, or take out just F-bombs.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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I think I read it wrong. You were correct in the first place. Damn you and your omniscience!!!
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
The New Orleans Sainst selected #2 in the 2006 NFL Draft but due to hiring of Sean Payton and some fortunate additions to the team the Sainst made it to the NFC Championship. The roster was improved but Payton coached the Sainst up to a level where they were feared by the NFL and almost got to the Super Bowl. I could go on all day but I think thats all the evidence thats needed.
The Saints replaced Aaron Brooks with Drew Brees, got Joe Horn, and Deuce McAllister back from injuries, drafted three impact starters, and actually had a home facility. That is a lot of positive change to credit Sean Payton that much. If any example were to be given, Eric Mangini would have been more appropriate.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:24 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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The Saints replaced Aaron Brooks with Drew Brees, got Joe Horn, and Deuce McAllister back from injuries, drafted three impact starters, and actually had a home facility. That is a lot of positive change to credit Sean Payton that much. If any example were to be given, Eric Mangini would have been more appropriate.
Mangini is probably a better example but the hard-nosed toughness of Payton really propelled the Saints and their organization
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Payton helped the team reinvent itself after they quit on Haslett after an impossible 2006 season. The team had a home and a home stadium, they had a fan base to play for, and they added singificant pieces to their team via the draft and free agency. Let's not forget they almost completely revamped their LB corps in the 2006 offseason. Getting Joe Horn back helped, but the development of Colston and the deployment and skills of Bush, plus McCallister's steadiness, was a huge boost. It was a combination, but the Saints weren't that bad to begin with. They had quite a bit of talent, and they added more using their draft position and cap room.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Payton helped. I just feel Brees, Horn, McAllister, Bush, Colston, Evans, Thomas, Simoneau, Shanle, Fujita, having a home, helped more.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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This is a pretty easy question, talent.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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I think that coaching can overcome a lack of talent level, and good talent can overcome poor coaching, but come playoff time when everyone is talented if your team is not well coached you will not do well. In the regular season it can work, but I'll take the coach. Clock managment, playcalling, schemes, which player to put in where in what situation, when to rest guys, even things like penalties that are worked on in practice. Talent can overcome coaching, but eventually you'll meet a team of equal talent thats coached better and lose. Same goes for a well coached team with low talent I guess, but the well coached teams are always in games. Look at the Jets last year, one of the least talented teams in the league IMO (and I'm a Jets fan) but they didn't get blown out (except against Jax) and competed with teams with talent levels far superior to theirs (Indy, Chicago, NE). The fire they played with and their motivation must have been due to schemes and coaching in one way or another, and again the Jets were not a very talented team last year. The other nice thing about a well coached team is its easier to build a team long term, where with a talented team people will need to get paid eventually. Just a few thoughts.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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ITs a mix of the two really.But I'll take Coaching.Just look at Oaklands offense this past year.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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or their defense.

not the point.

just as a reminder note. do we all remember belichick's time with the brownies?

i'm sure we all know that we can't get everything based out of talent, and that you can't coach a bunch of S-teamers into beating first line guys. but, really, ingenuous coaching really causes headaches for teams and puts points and victories on the board by creating situations that the individual players are great at. because more often than not, one individual talent doesn't mean great things.

like, sapp and oakland.
or when strahan or osi goes down, the DL isn't the same for jersey. (nothing against Kiwanuka (go bc) yet...)
or in the saga to be goes down in chicago with Briggs. one great talent cant necessarily secure success especially in the age of the cap. urlacher needs mediocre talent to make them look pretty good (see hunter hillenmeyer)...

great coaching will turn the jets into J-E-T-S jets.

now. in other circumstances. you have romeo crennell. denny green. both pretty good coaches. and have teams with talent. but still can't make that leap into the next category... or in denny's case, couldn't with the cards. but why? like what derza said. putting that fire under the butts and making them well disciplined and have them execute well. sure you can gameplan phenomenally, but if you can't execute, even LT would look pretty sloppy and not as good. which is why crennell and green albeit good coaches in philosophy, concept, and adaptation, don't fall into the next category of good coaching to lead mediocre talent to victory more often.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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or their defense.

not the point.

just as a reminder note. do we all remember belichick's time with the brownies?

i'm sure we all know that we can't get everything based out of talent, and that you can't coach a bunch of S-teamers into beating first line guys. but, really, ingenuous coaching really causes headaches for teams and puts points and victories on the board by creating situations that the individual players are great at. because more often than not, one individual talent doesn't mean great things.

like, sapp and oakland.
or when strahan or osi goes down, the DL isn't the same for jersey. (nothing against Kiwanuka (go bc) yet...)
or in the saga to be goes down in chicago with Briggs. one great talent cant necessarily secure success especially in the age of the cap. urlacher needs mediocre talent to make them look pretty good (see hunter hillenmeyer)...

great coaching will turn the jets into J-E-T-S jets.

now. in other circumstances. you have romeo crennell. denny green. both pretty good coaches. and have teams with talent. but still can't make that leap into the next category... or in denny's case, couldn't with the cards. but why? like what derza said. putting that fire under the butts and making them well disciplined and have them execute well. sure you can gameplan phenomenally, but if you can't execute, even LT would look pretty sloppy and not as good. which is why crennell and green albeit good coaches in philosophy, concept, and adaptation, don't fall into the next category of good coaching to lead mediocre talent to victory more often.
I'm not entirely sure what any of that meant....
I think you were getting at you need a combination of the two, which is true. But I may be wrong, not sure.
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Old 04-25-2007, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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Goes hand in hand to me. The best coaches get the most out of their talent and develop it. If the talent isnt there in the first place, the coaching wont matter and you can have all the talent in the world, but if you dont use it, it doesnt matter.

Personally, I think talent wins games and coaching wins the championships. In the NFL the difference between the best and the worst players is not that great(not compared to say HS or NCAA level), which means the coaching should have a greater final impact. The great talent can take you to the playoffs, but great coaching will get you over the hump, because great coaches will nullify their opponents best talents.
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