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Old 06-05-2013, 01:22 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Hey guys, did you know Brandon Graham was better than JJ Watt last year?
Not as a complete player, because Watt played more snaps, had far more pass breakups, and probably played better run defense.

But if you are just looking at Pass Rush Pressure per snap (hits+hurries+sacks/snap), then Graham was superior.

But obviously, Watt was a better overall player. The same cannot be said for Pierre Paul. The only edge Pierre Paul has over Graham is that he played more snaps for his team. That's it.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Not as a complete player, because Watt played more snaps, had far more pass breakups, and probably played better run defense.

But if you are just looking at Pass Rush Pressure per snap (hits+hurries+sacks/snap), then Graham was superior.

But obviously, Watt was a better overall player. The same cannot be said for Pierre Paul. The only edge Pierre Paul has over Graham is that he played more snaps for his team. That's it.
You've finally done it, my brain just exploded. How come Watt having more pass breakups and playing much better run D counts, and JPP having those things over Graham doesn't?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Not as a complete player, because Watt played more snaps, had far more pass breakups, and probably played better run defense.

But if you are just looking at Pass Rush Pressure per snap (hits+hurries+sacks/snap), then Graham was superior.

But obviously, Watt was a better overall player.
The same cannot be said for Pierre Paul. The only edge Pierre Paul has over Graham is that he played more snaps for his team. That's it.
So BY YOUR OWN WORDS, we can apply the SAME LOGIC to JPP and conclude that JPP is better than Brandon Graham right?

Bc JPP had MORE pass breakups, PLAYED better run defense by your own admission, and played more snaps.

Since we apply that logic to JJ Watt, we apply the SAME logic to JPP right?

Thanks for clearing that up for us Thumper.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Sure you do, you're the one trying to prove that we're all suffering from group thinking that is tricking our eyes when we watch JPP. So the onus is on you to prove the consensus incorrect. And if you can't even provide a single NFL decision maker who would pick Graham over JPP then why should we think your argument has even the least bit of merit?
Let's see if you can understand this.

I am making a statement based on statistics that can be logically discussesd. Anyone can choose to disprove my statement or not.

Random Forum Guy makes outlandish claim that he is inside the brain of every NFL personnel man. This is clearly incorrect, so no logical rebuttal is necessary to that specific point.

If "FUNBUNCHER" wants to discuss stats like Pass Rush Productivity, or the historical context of part-time pass rushers transitioning into full-time roles, or an analytical breakdown of pass rush techniques employed by Pierre Paul and Graham, or something that can be logically discussed, then I will respond in kind.

But because neither he nor I have access to the ear of an NFL personnel man, any argument that brings up their opinions is specious at best and not even worth discussing.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Guys, we just settled it. Thumper admitted using his own words that JPP is better. No need to discuss this any further.

From now on, just remind him that he admitted using his own logic that JPP is better than Brandon Graham.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Hey BBD:

I don't know if you understand simple math or not but:

JJ Watt: 20.5 sacks, 16 PDs, 4 FF, 69 tackles in 900+ snaps

Jason Pierre Paul: 6.5 sacks, 5 PDs, 1 FF, 43 Tackles in 900+ snaps

Brandon Graham: 5.5 sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF, 30 Tackles in 400 some snaps

Last edited by AcheTen (Thumper) : 06-05-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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**** and explain why JPP doesn't get to get measured by the same criteria as JJ Watt when comparing them to Graham.

After that you can go back to ignoring the point that you are trying to convince people of something that everybody except you sees to be false, thus it is on you to convince us we are wrong, and ignoring everything that doesn't suit your argument is a poor way of doing that when you're not dealing with children and the mentally handicapped.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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Never change Thumper. Never change. The offseason isn't as boring when you're around.

You always provide us with quality stupidity during the offseason to pass the time, then you do what every laughable troll does and hide during the regular season when you're clearly proven wrong.

Only to reappear in the offseason with a new screen name with some more outlandish stupidity.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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BBD, You are wrong and you know it.

I hope you enjoy your heaping steaming hot pile of crow that you will be eating come next year.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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All I know is, you just admitted that JPP is better than Brandon Graham.

Nothing else needs to be said. You said it for me.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
All I know is, you just admitted that JPP is better than Brandon Graham.

Nothing else needs to be said. You said it for me.
Do you understand simple math? Did you read this:


JJ Watt: 20.5 sacks, 16 PDs, 4 FF, 69 tackles in 900+ snaps

Jason Pierre Paul: 6.5 sacks, 5 PDs, 1 FF, 43 Tackles in 900+ snaps

Brandon Graham: 5.5 sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF, 30 Tackles in 400 some snaps


JJ Watt was vastly more productive than Graham in twice the snaps. Pierre Paul had only similar levels of production as Graham in twice the snaps.

You can't use the same critiria for Watt for Pierre Paul, because Watt was far, far more productive in all of those snaps.

Pierre Paul played a ton of snaps and he barely outproduced Graham, who played literally less than HALF the number of snaps.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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JPP is a better and more productive DE than Brandon Graham

-Thumper
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
JPP is a better and more productive DE than Brandon Graham

-Thumper
Haha, you can't even formulate a good argument when the numbers are just staring you in the face.

You're wrong and desperate now.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Do you understand simple math? Did you read this:


JJ Watt: 20.5 sacks, 16 PDs, 4 FF, 69 tackles in 900+ snaps

Jason Pierre Paul: 6.5 sacks, 5 PDs, 1 FF, 43 Tackles in 900+ snaps

Brandon Graham: 5.5 sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF, 30 Tackles in 400 some snaps


JJ Watt was vastly more productive than Graham in twice the snaps. Pierre Paul had only similar levels of production as Graham in twice the snaps.

You can't use the same critiria for Watt for Pierre Paul, because Watt was far, far more productive in all of those snaps.

Pierre Paul played a ton of snaps and he barely outproduced Graham, who played literally less than HALF the number of snaps.
I got it man, I got it. You already told us JPP is better than Brandon Graham. I'm sig quoting the translation so we're both on the same page.

Don't worry bro. I got what you're saying.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Actually, no, my argument is not flawed.

I broke down Graham based on stats, yearly comparisons to Pierre Paul, historical touchstones, and also went into detail about specific game-footage observations of Graham's game.

Everyone else in here is just like "OMG JPP jumped so high and OMG teh Giants won teh Super Bowl and he's a freak you are stupid for even questioning the freakiness of JPP and everyone else says it so it must be true"
You see yourself as the rational thinker while immediately counting out everyone else as media hype loving group thinkers. That is your first flaw.

I brought up a baseball parallel earlier because I think it is related. Early SABR adopters were ridiculed and written off since traditional thinkers only respected other traditional thinkers opinions. You are doing the exact same in reverse. Using a single source for your statistics you are completely writing off any opinion. Refusing to even look at another opinion (even wrong ones) is recipe for failure. Most people here aren't refuting that new statistics are helpful, rather adopting them into other trains of thought.

You're one source for statistics is also poor. I am a PFF fan, they are in the infant stages of introducing advanced analytics into football. Unfortunately they are not there yet. Two things prevent this, objectiveness and variables. Again with a baseball parallel - advanced hitting statistics are light years ahead of fielding statistics - because they can remove almost all subjective opinions and variables from the equation. In fact, advanced fielding statistics are generally considered crap. PFF is working on removing these things, but as football is inherently a more team oriented sport then baseball, they are still working on it.

From the subjective point of view go to their grading page and you can see how crazy putting a grade on an individual every play gets. The example of the offense getting a neutral grade if they fail on a 3rd and 3 and the D stacked the box? Great in theory, but how do you judge the QB not audibling to a new pass, or what if the RB was supposed to hit the free guy and not the one he did? Looks like a fine block, but it was actually a missed play that could have been a positive (and should have been graded as a negative instead of neutral).

As far as variables go, you are so quick to write off double teams, but you've said in the past JPP benefited from playing on one of the best d-lines. How can that be? Tthey are both variables, except one may hurt your argument while the other helps it. Did the scheme and circumstance benefit one player over the other, who knows and PFF is working on removing them, but in no way are they there yet. (They consider down and distance when giving each play a score, but do they consider average down and distance in overall productivity?)

Your equation is completely off, you base it on one source of statistics and then try to write everything off as circumstantial.


I'm not arguing JPP is better then Graham (though I believe he is), I am arguing they your conclusion is based of poor logic.

Apologies for typos and grammar, I'm on a conference call.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I got it man, I got it. You already told us JPP is better than Brandon Graham. I'm sig quoting the translation so we're both on the same page.

Don't worry bro. I got what you're saying.
If you think that Pierre Paul getting similar levels of production as Graham out of 900+ snaps, while Graham only played 440 snaps means that Pierre Paul is better...

then I hope you do put that in your sig. It just shows how stupid you are.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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If you think that Pierre Paul getting similar levels of production as Graham out of 900+ snaps, while Graham only played 440 snaps means that Pierre Paul is better...

then I hope you do put that in your sig. It just shows how stupid you are.
I don't think it, I know it. Bc you told me so. Thanks for the clarity.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Aw BBD, you beat me to the sig quote. :( I'll take mine down now. :(
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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I think we should both wear it bro. In fact, we should all wear it.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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Per (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts):

Jason Pierre Paul, in 2012, played 951 total snaps, of which 873 were on defense.
Brandon Graham, in 2012, played 440 total snaps, of which 421 were on defense.

Per (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...G/GrahBr99.htm) and (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...PierJa99.htm):

Jason Pierre Paul, in 2012, had 6.5 sacks, 5 PDs, 1 FF, 43 Tackles.
Brandon Graham, in 2012, had 5.5 sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF, 30 Tackles.

Does anyone here know simple math?

5.5 sacks in 421 defensive snaps vs. 6.5 sacks in 873 defensive snaps.

So using something called simple division, we get 0.0075 sacks per snap (Pierre Paul) vs. 0.0131 sacks per snap. 0.0131 > 0.0075.

And they don't list hits+hurries+qb hits on that site, but if they did, I'm sure we'd come to a similar conclusion.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Done and done.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Per (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts):

Jason Pierre Paul, in 2012, played 951 total snaps, of which 873 were on defense.
Brandon Graham, in 2012, played 440 total snaps, of which 421 were on defense.

Per (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...G/GrahBr99.htm) and (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...PierJa99.htm):

Jason Pierre Paul, in 2012, had 6.5 sacks, 5 PDs, 1 FF, 43 Tackles.
Brandon Graham, in 2012, had 5.5 sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF, 30 Tackles.

Does anyone here know simple math?

5.5 sacks in 421 defensive snaps vs. 6.5 sacks in 873 defensive snaps.

So using something called simple division, we get 0.0075 sacks per snap (Pierre Paul) vs. 0.0131 sacks per snap. 0.0131 > 0.0075.

And they don't list hits+hurries+qb hits on that site, but if they did, I'm sure we'd come to a similar conclusion.
Right. Exactly. JPP is better. We got it bro. We see the numbers. JPP was more productive. You told us already.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:56 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by Damix View Post
[color=Magenta]You see yourself as the rational thinker while immediately counting out everyone else as media hype loving group thinkers. That is your first flaw.

I brought up a baseball parallel earlier because I think it is related. Early SABR adopters were ridiculed and written off since traditional thinkers only respected other traditional thinkers opinions. You are doing the exact same in reverse. Using a single source for your statistics you are completely writing off any opinion. Refusing to even look at another opinion (even wrong ones) is recipe for failure. Most people here aren't refuting that new statistics are helpful, rather adopting them into other trains of thought.
Actually, most people here are blindly dogmatic and believing of the "scout's eye" system of looking at players. I am willing to adopt both viewpoints. If you noticed, I broke down, via that same scouting terminology, Graham's game, alongside espousing a statistical view of his production.

Quote:
You're one source for statistics is also poor. I am a PFF fan, they are in the infant stages of introducing advanced analytics into football. Unfortunately they are not there yet. Two things prevent this, objectiveness and variables. Again with a baseball parallel - advanced hitting statistics are light years ahead of fielding statistics - because they can remove almost all subjective opinions and variables from the equation. In fact, advanced fielding statistics are generally considered crap. PFF is working on removing these things, but as football is inherently a more team oriented sport then baseball, they are still working on it.
It's still the most reliable source of per-play grading that we have right now. I wouldn't say that baseball stats are "light years" beyond football stats. They are more developed, and baseball lends itself to statistical analysis a bit more easily, but there are enough quantifiable things in football that analysis can reliably be done.

Quote:
From the subjective point of view go to their grading page and you can see how crazy putting a grade on an individual every play gets. The example of the offense getting a neutral grade if they fail on a 3rd and 3 and the D stacked the box? Great in theory, but how do you judge the QB not audibling to a new pass, or what if the RB was supposed to hit the free guy and not the one he did? Looks like a fine block, but it was actually a missed play that could have been a positive (and should have been graded as a negative instead of neutral).
There are definitely flaws in PFF's methodology, but they are a great start at stat analysis in football.

Additionally, I use traditional stats as well, as I referenced p-f-r numerous times on here.


Quote:
As far as variables go, you are so quick to write off double teams, but you've said in the past JPP benefited from playing on one of the best d-lines. How can that be? Tthey are both variables, except one may hurt your argument while the other helps it. Did the scheme and circumstance benefit one player over the other, who knows and PFF is working on removing them, but in no way are they there yet. (They consider down and distance when giving each play a score, but do they consider average down and distance in overall productivity?)
Double teams and "playing on one of the great DLines" are completely different issues.

The assumption with the latter is that the offense is under seige from multiple players that are beating their one-on-one blocks, and Pierre Paul and his "sacks", many of them, would actually be the result of pressure generated by Tuck or Umenyiora that Pierre Paul simply mopped up. Graham playing on a DLine that was not that great last year aside from him means that sacks and pressures generated by Graham were primarily of his own doing, which shows a greater level of talent than Pierre Paul not only generating his own pressure but reaping the rewards of other pressure from Tuck and Umenyiora (in 2011). Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that any one of those players was commanding double teams.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Right. Exactly. JPP is better. We got it bro. We see the numbers. JPP was more productive. You told us already.
So now you've given up and decided just to manufacture fake quotes?

How incredibly intelligent.

Thanks for conceding the point!

I guess I could do the same:

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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I know nothing about football and resort to name-calling and ad hominem attacks, and falsifying quotes instead.
Sweet.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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I like it...
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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