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Old 06-06-2013, 10:58 AM    (permalink
jth1331
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A thread to discuss an average at best team? Sure, why not I guess.
Defense is alright, not great, but not bad either.
Offense is meh, I don't like Weeden at all. Richardson was like others said overdrafted, but he's still a good RB. Need the WR's to develop and the OL to hold together.

Still a ways to go.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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They have a ton of talent on their defense already. Joe Haden is a top-5 CB, Phil Taylor is a top-5 NT. TJ Ward is a very good safety. They have some solid pieces around them.

They have a good OL, a good RB, and some decent WRs. They need to settle their QB spot to be a real competitor.

If Mingo turns out to be a player, and they settle their QB spot with someone who is at least in the top-15 discussion (could still be Brandon Weeden), I could see them running the AFC North for a while.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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I think Leon McFadden will be a pretty good CB. But I'm completely bias and a homer with that one.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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The Browns are in the running as my sleeper team this year. But I'm not committing to that just yet.

Needless to say, I'm struggling to find a sleeper this year. Last year was easy.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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Will Weeden doom them though, or can the guy actually turn out to be pretty good?

How deep is their receiving corps?
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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Its all on the QB. The Browns aren't really that bad but they just lack a good QB. Its especially hard because the AFCN is pretty good right now. The Browns aren't terrible but they are clearly the 4th best team in the division. Although they aren't exactly an easy win for the Ravens lately.

I respect Browns fans the most probably in the league. The
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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Will Weeden doom them though, or can the guy actually turn out to be pretty good?

How deep is their receiving corps?
He is in a very good situation for him to grow. Chudzinski and Norv Turner have very strong track records, when it comes to developing QBs, and Weeden could benefit greatly from their coaching. The new system those guys will implement definitly suits Weedens strengths better than the one Pat Shurmur used as well. That being said, Im not even sure that Weeden will be the starter in week 1. Still way to early to tell, but havent heard a lot of ringing endorsements about him coming from the new coaching staff.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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I'll be very disappointed in Weeden if he doesn't improve markedly this year.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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Its all on the QB. The Browns aren't really that bad but they just lack a good QB. Its especially hard because the AFCN is pretty good right now. The Browns aren't terrible but they are clearly the 4th best team in the division. Although they aren't exactly an easy win for the Ravens lately.
They're not "clearly" the 4th best team in the division. They actually have more young talent on defense than either Baltimore or Pittsburgh. I think they have more total talent, outside of the QB position, actually, than either team.

Give them a decent (doesn't even have to be top-10) QB, and I could see them being the #1 or #2 team in that division this year. It remains to be seen if Weeden can be even decent, but if he is, or if they find someone else, I'd put money on the Browns fighting the Bengals for that division title, with the Ravens having a say, but neither team being clear-cut #1.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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They're not "clearly" the 4th best team in the division. They actually have more young talent on defense than either Baltimore or Pittsburgh. I think they have more total talent, outside of the QB position, actually, than either team.

Give them a decent (doesn't even have to be top-10) QB, and I could see them being the #1 or #2 team in that division this year. It remains to be seen if Weeden can be even decent, but if he is, or if they find someone else, I'd put money on the Browns fighting the Bengals for that division title, with the Ravens having a say, but neither team being clear-cut #1.
If they had a good QB they would be much more competitive for the AFCN title, but as it is I really don't think they do. I'm just not a Weeden fan, but the situation coaching wise is very nice so I could see him having some success. All 3 other teams have QBs established and that means a ton. The Browns do have nice young talent on defense but Baltimore and Cincy are also really talented overall. Baltimore is still a really talented roster on both sides of the ball and are more talented than the Browns.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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double post
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:43 AM    (permalink
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triple post. Why is there no delete button?
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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Cincy has alot of nice young talent on both sides of the ball and I think it's a toss-up between them and the Browns for "most talent overall outside of the QB" in that division.

I don't see how Baltimore an edge in the talent level over the Browns. The only promising young players (on defense) I see there are Courtney Upshaw, who's mostly just a run-stuffing OLB and nothing special as a pass rusher, and whoever they drafted this year (and they're nothing but prospects at this point). Suggs, Ngata, and Dumervil are nice players but I'm looking at this from the perspective of the next 3-4 years, and I'll take Cleveland's young defensive players over these guys any day, especially guys like Suggs coming off injuries in their 30s.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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Cincy has alot of nice young talent on both sides of the ball and I think it's a toss-up between them and the Browns for "most talent overall outside of the QB" in that division.

I don't see how Baltimore an edge in the talent level over the Browns. The only promising young players (on defense) I see there are Courtney Upshaw, who's mostly just a run-stuffing OLB and nothing special as a pass rusher, and whoever they drafted this year (and they're nothing but prospects at this point). Suggs, Ngata, and Dumervil are nice players but I'm looking at this from the perspective of the next 3-4 years, and I'll take Cleveland's young defensive players over these guys any day, especially guys like Suggs coming off injuries in their 30s.
Most overall talent in the division outside QB easily goes to the Ravens at this snapshot in time.

Rice, Smith, Osemele, Yanda, Ngata, Suggs, Doom, and Webb is better than anything anyone else can throw out at this time. 2-3 years that might change, but as of right now the Ravens have the best roster even minus Flacco.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Most overall talent in the division outside QB easily goes to the Ravens at this snapshot in time.

Rice, Smith, Osemele, Yanda, Ngata, Suggs, Doom, and Webb is better than anything anyone else can throw out at this time. 2-3 years that might change, but as of right now the Ravens have the best roster even minus Flacco.
You're assuming an awful lot about Suggs and Dumervil as older players coming off down years, though.

I wouldn't take Ray Rice over Trent Richardson, and I wouldn't take Osemele over anyone on the Browns OL either.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Most overall talent in the division outside QB easily goes to the Ravens at this snapshot in time.

Rice, Smith, Osemele, Yanda, Ngata, Suggs, Doom, and Webb is better than anything anyone else can throw out at this time. 2-3 years that might change, but as of right now the Ravens have the best roster even minus Flacco.

Go man per man down the Bengals starting 22 and see if you still think the same.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Go man per man down the Bengals starting 22 and see if you still think the same.
Yeah right now I'd definitely give the edge to the Bengals.

Bengals >> Browns / Ravens (about equal, Browns have more youth but Ravens have more "names") >>>> Steelers.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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the concept of "winnable games" based on the offseason schedule is hilarious, the browns beat reigning or to-be super bowl champions three years in a row if i recall correctly. that said they have a young team (queue the "hurr hurr weedn is 30 lolz wut r u idotz doin draft a qb in frst rnd") and they will still probably be pretty inconsistent.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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It doesn't help that Gordon just got suspended 2 games.

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NFL suspended Browns WR Josh Gordon two games for violating the league's substance-abuse policy.
He'll also forfeit four game checks. Gordon entered the 2012 Supplemental Draft after what were believed to be multiple marijuana incidents, including an arrest for possession at a Taco Bell during his time at Baylor. He later transferred to the University of Houston, but was not allowed to play. Gordon is one of the better breakout fantasy candidates in the NFL this season, but the two-game ban is a reminder of his off-field history. Ultimately, it could also make him a better value in fantasy drafts. He'll be back in Week 3.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Cincy has alot of nice young talent on both sides of the ball and I think it's a toss-up between them and the Browns for "most talent overall outside of the QB" in that division.

I don't see how Baltimore an edge in the talent level over the Browns. The only promising young players (on defense) I see there are Courtney Upshaw, who's mostly just a run-stuffing OLB and nothing special as a pass rusher, and whoever they drafted this year (and they're nothing but prospects at this point). Suggs, Ngata, and Dumervil are nice players but I'm looking at this from the perspective of the next 3-4 years, and I'll take Cleveland's young defensive players over these guys any day, especially guys like Suggs coming off injuries in their 30s.
In 3 years the Browns might be considered more talented but right now and for the next 3 year the Ravens are better. In 3 years Suggs and Doom will probably fall off but right now they are probably the best OLB combo and maybe the best pass rush duo. The DL will be much improved with some added 34 DE vets in Canty and Spears who will rotate with McPhee and Jones who are decently promising young players. Additionaly Ngata moving to NT should help shore up the run defense.

This Ravens team wont be around for 4 years but it is a more talented group right now and thats what the topic is right now. Cleveland has some good young talent and if they keep drafting well they will be a big threat in a few years, but right now they are the #4 team in the division. I also trust the Ravens and Steelers to reload on young talent because they traditionally are good drafting teams, so in 3 years they might be stacked with talent again. The Browns right now just don't have that proven track record yet.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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I don't think they'll get to .500, and almost all of the blame will be earned by Weeden.

That was just a crazy pick for Holmgren to make. I'm not a believer in him at all. With an average QB, I think they're a wild card-level team. Wasn't a fan of the Richardson pick/trade-up either (ewwwww first round RB), but it wasn't half as bad as Weeden.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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Go man per man down the Bengals starting 22 and see if you still think the same.
Meh, I love Atkins, Green, and Zeitler as much as anyone, but people tend to speak more glowingly about new stars rather than old stars. Go back 3 years and people would hold Ngata, Rice, and Suggs in the same esteem that those guys are. It doesn't mean that those guys aren't still damn good, but the novelty of their dominance has worn off, and everyone is on to the shiny new thing.

The fact is that the Ravens are a really talented team with a core of football players that have proven that they can be successful in this league. The results speak for themselves. Even last year without Webb and a hobbled Suggs and Ngata they were able to win the Super Bowl. The loss of a couple of players whose names are bigger than their impacts won't set the Ravens back that far.

In a Bengals-Ravens case the Bengals roster looks younger which gives more people the perception that it's more talented, but in reality the Ravens have more talent to work with that will actually create tangible results towards winning games.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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In 3 years the Browns might be considered more talented but right now and for the next 3 year the Ravens are better. In 3 years Suggs and Doom will probably fall off but right now they are probably the best OLB combo and maybe the best pass rush duo. The DL will be much improved with some added 34 DE vets in Canty and Spears who will rotate with McPhee and Jones who are decently promising young players. Additionaly Ngata moving to NT should help shore up the run defense.

This Ravens team wont be around for 4 years but it is a more talented group right now and thats what the topic is right now. Cleveland has some good young talent and if they keep drafting well they will be a big threat in a few years, but right now they are the #4 team in the division. I also trust the Ravens and Steelers to reload on young talent because they traditionally are good drafting teams, so in 3 years they might be stacked with talent again. The Browns right now just don't have that proven track record yet.
There have been statistical studies done that show that year-to-year drafting success is almost completely random and unsustainable.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2013...s-and-nfl.html

No team in the league has a "proven track record" any more than another. I don't value the Steelers or Ravens as "better drafters" any more than the Browns.

The Steelers and Ravens look like aging teams to me, with alot of "name" guys and some older patchwork vets like Canty and Spears who were wholly underwhelming with their previous teams. Both the Browns and the Bengals have more young talent than those two teams.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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There have been statistical studies done that show that year-to-year drafting success is almost completely random and unsustainable.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2013...s-and-nfl.html

No team in the league has a "proven track record" any more than another. I don't value the Steelers or Ravens as "better drafters" any more than the Browns.

The Steelers and Ravens look like aging teams to me, with alot of "name" guys and some older patchwork vets like Canty and Spears who were wholly underwhelming with their previous teams. Both the Browns and the Bengals have more young talent than those two teams.
I strongly disagree with the notion that drafting success is almost completely random and unsustainable. You can not value teams track records all you want, but some teams are consistently better at drafting and some aren't. Luck plays a factor but they better teams manage it. There are a lot of factors that go into drafting but some franchises produce better results.

Are we debating overall talent or just younger talent? What is the cutoff for young talent? The Ravens have more overall talent than the Browns but young talent is comparable. The quarterback difference is really what puts the Browns behind the rest of the division.
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