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View Poll Results: More important to team success:
an elite cornerback (Darrelle Revis) 30 56.60%
an elite running back (Adrian Peterson) 23 43.40%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-07-2013, 09:04 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Originally Posted by SunTzu_22 View Post
Long story short, I would much rather invest my premium ressources in what is generally considered a premium position (CB), when history shows that I can indeed find (highly) productive players at another position widely considered to be less important (RB).
Looked up a countdown of the top cornerbacks in the NFL, and while the rankings may not be very reliable, overall in that list the breakdown was this:

15 first-rounders
7 second rounders
15 taken in the third round or later, including free agents.

What this implies, to me, is that a cornerback's ability is, perhaps more than any position, predicated on his athletic measureables. Teams can spot top corner prospects pretty easily, and then through the rest of the draft players like Richard Sherman, Asante Samuel, Brent Grimes, etc. are eventually picked up and prove themselves through their play, despite falling for various reasons.

Maybe we can look at the last 5 AP All-Pro rosters for some perspective?

2012

RB: Adrian Peterson (7th overall), Marshawn Lynch (12th overall), Alfred Morris (173rd overall), Jamaal Charles (73rd overall)

CB: Richard Sherman (154th overall), Charles Tillman (35th overall), Tim Jennings (62nd overall), Champ Bailey (7th overall)

Not a whole lot different, really. There are a couple of premium picks at running back and a couple more from the rest of the draft field. At corner there's Champ at 7, a couple of second rounders, and a fifth rounder.

2011

RB: Maurice Jones-Drew (60th overall), LeSean McCoy (53rd overall), Ray Rice (55th overall), Arian Foster (undrafted)

CB: Darrelle Revis (14th overall) Charles Woodsen (4th overall), Johnathan Joseph (24th overall), Carlos Rodgers (9th overall)

This year the first round was well-represented by cornerbacks, and the running back field was Arian Foster and three second-rounders.

2010

RB: Arian Foster (undrafted), Jamaal Charles (73rd overall), Michael Turner (154th overall), Adrian Peterson (7th overall)

CB: Darrelle Revis (14th overall), Nnamdi Asomugha (31st overall), Devin McCourty (27th overall), Charles Woodson (4th overall)

2009

RB: Chris Johnson (24th overall), Adrian Peterson (7th overall), Steven Jackson (24th overall), Ray Rice (55th overall)

CB: Charles Woodson (4th overall), Darrelle Revis (14th overall), Nnamdi Asomugha (31st overall), Asante Samuel (120th overall), Leon Hall (18th overall)

This year it looks pretty even. The top players at both positions, compared to their draft positions, are pretty even. 3 first-rounders and then a 2nd rounder in Ray Rice and a 4th rounder in Asante Samuel.

2008

RB: Adrian Peterson (7th overall), Michel Turner (154th overall), DeAngelo Williams (27th overall), Clinton Portis (51st overall)

CB: Nnamdi Asomugha (31st overall), Cortland Finnegan (215th overall), Charles Woodson (4th overall), Antoine Winfield (23rd overall)

Again, really pretty similar.

Let's average them:

Average draft position of an All-Pro running back in the last 5 years (if a player made it more than one, their draft number is simply repeated, and an UFA is counted as 255:

Average draft position for an All-Pro Running back was 67th overall.
Average draft position for an All-Pro Cornerback was 40th overall.

So yes, there is a difference in where All-Pro players are selected. But it's not because running backs are less important. It could very easily mean, instead, that running backs are harder to evaluate. Look how many first round running backs have failed to pan out! If you're going to say, "Well, Alfred Morris was drafted in the 6th! I'd never draft a running back in the first round!" then tell me why Ryan Matthews has never been effective? How about Darren McFadden? Where've Jonathan Stewart and Felix Jones been hiding? How good is Rashard Mendenhall? How's Knowshon Moreno Doing? Donald Brown? Beanie Wells? Why haven't their teams simply implemented zone-blocking schemes so that they can take that easy 5 every play? I mean, they only have to make one cut! ...Right?

What all these guys have in common is that they posted big stats in college and had workout numbers that looked good enough. But playing running back in the NFL is hugely different. The linebackers are a lot faster and they hit a lot harder. A cornerback is mostly asked to stay stride for stride with the guy he's covering and make a tackle when it gets to him. You can look at a guy's hip flexibility, his speed, his quickness and ball skills, and be pretty sure he'll be a good corner. It's easier to base it off of measurables. With running backs, you kind of just have to turn them loose and see how they look once they're running through NFL traffic. You have to see how well they play when they can't just take it to the corner. Running backs are not less important than cornerbacks. It's just harder to find good ones, and it happens more often that coaches suddenly discover that they have a good one on their roster, as with Alfred Morris or Arian Foster.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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It's amazing how many people are acting like if you don't put out Revis at CB you can't stop an offense. There's plenty of good but not elite CBs than can cover a WR.

The argument of being able to make a physically gifted and smart RB with a good QB, good O-Line etc is irrelevant, as you can take a similar CB and greatly hide his downfalls and make him excel with a good D-Line.

This question will never truly have an answer, there just isn't a real answer. It is, and will always be a matter of opinion.

The Vikings were a good but not great team last season, I watched Adrian Peterson carry them to wins that directly related to them making the playoffs. I've never seen Revis directly carry his team. For this reason, I'll go with Peterson.

It's a fact you don't have to have an elite RB in todays game to win the superbowl, but you don't need to have an elite CB either!
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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Now a days with teams passing so much more give me the elite CB.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:19 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by zachsaints52 View Post
Now a days with teams passing so much more give me the elite CB.
Teams are spreading defenses out more too. You aren't forced to pass in Revis' direction. You can take your chances with every other DB on the roster.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:05 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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Having been a Broncos fan through a situation like this, I will say give me the elite CB everytime. Champ not only was traded during his prime and has been amazing for 10+ years but the fact is the position of HB does not have a long shelf life and often depending on system you can find a servicable back.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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and leaving one guy on an island means you can double cover other guys. or send more pressure. or a million other things you can't do with a stock standard, league average corner.
This!!! Revis didn't help the Jets simply because he could cover Megatron or Larry Fitzgerald etc. Rex Ryan was able to run so many coverage looks and exotic blitz packages because he knew that Revis could hold his own against anyone.

The obvious thing to think if you have a great CB is throw away from him. But smart defensive coordinators take those options away and funnel everything to their best player.

Now if you want to run a vanilla cover 2 base then having an elite CB is nice but not a necessity but that would be a waste.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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CB. Run game production is dependent mostly on OL, and RBs can be found rather easily. Plus their shell life is shorter.

Plus it's a passing league. You can still be very productive on offense without a run game. But you need CBs who can defend the pass.

But ultimately, this is an impossible argument bc player A vs player B conversations are mostly dependent on the individual talent at hand.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:54 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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I agree to a point about it depending on the players but for instance at the time of the trade Champ Bailey was hands down the best DB in the game and Portis was arguably top 5 if not higher and both in their primes.

So in a sense if player A and player B were both elite it would honestly be 9 times out of 10 the CB was vauled higher.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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That being said I do not think Revis will be the same player as he was pre-injury...so i would take AP in this situation.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56 View Post
That being said I do not think Revis will be the same player as he was pre-injury...so i would take AP in this situation.
I think that is too premature, many people thought the same thing last year with Peterson's own knee injury
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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I think that is too premature, many people thought the same thing last year with Peterson's own knee injury
Very true, but again what AP did in terms of coming back is not the norm it isnt typical and then throw in the fact that a CB like Revis is so reliant on quickness and speed that if he comes back a half step slower he isnt like a Rod Woodson or Champ Bailey in terms of physicality that if he comes back not as quick and not as fast he doesnt have the physical style so he will get exposed...
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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This!!! Revis didn't help the Jets simply because he could cover Megatron or Larry Fitzgerald etc. Rex Ryan was able to run so many coverage looks and exotic blitz packages because he knew that Revis could hold his own against anyone.

The obvious thing to think if you have a great CB is throw away from him. But smart defensive coordinators take those options away and funnel everything to their best player.

Now if you want to run a vanilla cover 2 base then having an elite CB is nice but not a necessity but that would be a waste.
I understand the comparison, but wouldn't a smart offensive coordinator do the same thing with a RB? An elite RB can open up the whole offense, make the defense change what it wants to do and allow others on offense to make plays just as a CB does on defense.

I agree though, running the cover 2 (as your primary defense) would be like having an elite RB and not running the ball.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Take the best RB vs the best CB in any decade I think the RB wins every time. 90's is pretty close.

OJ Simpson > Jimmy Johnson
Walter Payton > Mike Haynes
Barry Sanders > Dion Sanders
LT = Champ Bailey
AP > Revis
Only one of those RBs has a Super Bowl ring and that was won by a GOAT defense.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Only one of those RBs has a Super Bowl ring and that was won by a GOAT defense.
and you think Haynes and Deion won because they carried the team themselves?
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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RB and non-pass-rushing LB (4-3 OLB, 4-3 ILB, and 3-4 ILB) are the least important positions in football, outside of the non-player positions like K and P.

I would take any position over RB (that includes FB and any kind of B for that matter) or non-pass-rushing LB.

I would take an *average* cornerback over a top-10 RB. The top-10 RB will chew up your salary cap because you feel "forced" to pay him, and all you get for that money is easily replaceable production. Finding even average CBs is harder than finding top-10 RBs, and the money is better spent on them anyway.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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RB and non-pass-rushing LB (4-3 OLB, 4-3 ILB, and 3-4 ILB) are the least important positions in football, outside of the non-player positions like K and P.

I would take any position over RB (that includes FB and any kind of B for that matter) or non-pass-rushing LB.

I would take an *average* cornerback over a top-10 RB. The top-10 RB will chew up your salary cap because you feel "forced" to pay him, and all you get for that money is easily replaceable production. Finding even average CBs is harder than finding top-10 RBs, and the money is better spent on them anyway.
and that's why you're an idiot
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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I would argue that the 4-3 MLB is one of the most important positions, and a non-pass rushing 4-3 OLB like a Derrick Brooks is far from least important.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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I would argue that the 4-3 MLB is one of the most important positions, and a non-pass rushing 4-3 OLB like a Derrick Brooks is far from least important.
There are so many teams that win with just DLine dominating on defense.

In fact, the LB play is a direct result of how the DL plays and NOT vice versa.

Just like the RB play is a direct result of how the OL plays.

The New York Giants never draft LBers high, EVER. They use late round picks and street free agents at that position, and they won two Super Bowls recently with that philosophy. Why? Because they invest in DL and understand that if they have a great DL, who they put at LB doesn't matter.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Players like JPP right Acheten?
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:08 PM    (permalink
MassNole
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
and you think Haynes and Deion won because they carried the team themselves?
The 49ers do not even make the 1994/95 Super Bowl without Deion Sanders completely taking Michael Irvin out of the NFCCG.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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why, specifically, do you think this is responsive, or relevant to the OP's original question?
The post I was quoting was not a question. The poster was implying that because only Payton has a ring, and was carried by the defense that it eliminates the need for an elite RB. I assume that's what was applied, my apologies to Mass if not.

I was quoting that post saying that the CBs that have won the superbowl did not carry the team either and the argument could be made that those teams were carried by exceptional offenses.

So, basically, I have no clue what you are referring to as being wrong with my quote.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:17 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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The 49ers do not even make the 1994/95 Super Bowl without Deion Sanders completely taking Michael Irvin out of the NFCCG.
I don't really claim to know on every single play who covered Michael Irvin, but he finished with 12 catches for 192 yards and 2 tds. That's "completely taking Michael Irvin out?"

Hmm well ok.

The 49ers won that game because they were able to get a 21 nothing lead and were the better team that day.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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The 49ers do not even make the 1994/95 Super Bowl without Deion Sanders completely taking Michael Irvin out of the NFCCG.
Yeah, this post is kind of comical. You're pointing out a specific game where Deion supposedly shut down his opponent's top receiver, and the receiver in question actually had the best playoff game of his career.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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no one said the CBs carried the team to the super bowl. you literally made that up. thus non-responsive (i'm confused as to why you think this has anything to do with the original post being a question) and irrelevant.
You should really learn to read. You would go much further in life. Mass said that the only RB that has won a ring was carried by the defense. I said that this is true, but that the CBs didn't carry the team either, which Mass or nobody else ever said, and I never stated anybody said it.

I was simply saying that if the case for a RB was that the defense carried him, the same argument could be made about the CBs that have won the ring.

I don't see what is so hard to understand?

In other words, I was referring to a post by Mass. Which had nothing to do with you. I don't understand why you stalk my post and always feel the need to respond when I was obviously not referring to you in the first place.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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no one said the CBs carried the team to the super bowl. you literally made that up. thus non-responsive (i'm confused as to why you think this has anything to do with the original post being a question) and irrelevant.
The guy was discrediting Payton for his SB ring by saying he won it because he was on a team with a GOAT defense. So he responded by wondering if he thinks that the elite corner led his team to a title. I thought it was a fair point, though poorly worded.

I think it's pretty obvious people would take a good corner over a good running back. I would take Revis, or any other top 10 CB for that matter, over any running back not named Peterson. There isn't a single non-QB I would take over Peterson though. The position isn't of much value typically, but he isn't typical.

Peterson > Revis
Charles Tillman > pretty much every other running back.
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