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Old 07-12-2013, 12:37 AM    (permalink
niel89
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
It's truly amazing how many of the people that are praising RG3, Wilson and Kaepernick are the same one's that are criticizing Cam (not necessarily on this board, but throughout the net)

Cam has had very little to work with, the only one even close is RG3. If Cam were a 49er I think he'd do even better than what Kaep has been doing.

Placing any of those 3 over Cam right now is really pushing it in my eyes.
For Cam and Rivers their perceptions have dropped because they aren't winning enough. They need to be over .500 or people don't consider them successful regardless of situation or talent around them. Same with Stafford. They need to get wins to get respect. People understand when they are in year 1 or 2 but they need to win consistently.

In my eyes the best QBs generally handle the regular season. I trust Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, and normally Brees to get 10 wins and be a year in year out playoff team. Big Ben and Eli can play with anyone in the playoffs but they miss getting there too often to push them up.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brown Leader View Post
Great list so far. Although Rivers, Freeman and Vick are too high.

Building off Jaws' list, I'd go...

32 Flynn
31 Kolb
30 Sanchez
29 Vick
28 Locker
27 Freeman
26 Henne
25 Ponder
24 Weeden
23 Smith
22 Palmer
21 Tannehill
20 Rivers
19 Cutler
18 Schaub
17 Bradford
16 Dalton
15 Newton
14 Stafford
13 Romo
12 Griffin
11 Wilson
10 Luck
9. Ryan
8. Kaepernick
7. E. Manning
6. Flacco
5. P. Manning
4. Roethlisberger
3. Brees
2. Rodgers
1. Brady

Damn thats a good list

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Originally Posted by niel89 View Post
For Cam and Rivers their perceptions have dropped because they aren't winning enough. They need to be over .500 or people don't consider them successful regardless of situation or talent around them. Same with Stafford. They need to get wins to get respect. People understand when they are in year 1 or 2 but they need to win consistently.

In my eyes the best QBs generally handle the regular season. I trust Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, and normally Brees to get 10 wins and be a year in year out playoff team. Big Ben and Eli can play with anyone in the playoffs but they miss getting there too often to push them up.
definitely true on cam and rivers....stafford gets a little more recognition cause of gaudy stats and fantasy football

Roethlisberger has missed the playoffs in 06, 09, and 12...6 of 9 years with 3 superbowl appearances, 2 superbowl wins, 4 AFC championships is pretty great. Brady is the only one who touches that stat. Rodgers and brees are much more prolific passers but ben doesnt get recognized because of the 1 and dones to jacksonville and denver and the lower numbers...but i wouldnt say he doesnt get to the playoffs consistently enough
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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chris johnson is still a top 5-7 back in the league, he is that good. People have flip flopped on him so hard...ive remained pretty constant on him, even with the 200 yard season, even with the down year, even with the get paid and get lazy attitude.

from 2010 after CJs season...lot of love for him, but 2 years later there way more hate for him

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41393

point is, he is that good and locker can be that good. I dont get why you are SO down on him, he was obviously talented but raw, he should have never played early on. In fact...at this mock i made in 2011 here is what i said about locker (total coincidence i have him to the seahawks)


http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...+rodgers+years

And that was before alex smith "turned the corner" (supposedly). Point is, hes not the first highly touted QB to struggle his first few years, people want to give up on guys so fast if they arent luck, roethlisberger, griffen, ect. I think hes very talented, he can really be a player in the league
Locker has two gigantic general issues.

1) He struggles making decisions and with accuracy in the pocket. THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF PLAYING QUARTERBACK. I love his arm, I love his intangibles, I love his athleticism. But he's never been a consistently high-level player in the pocket. In other words, playing quarterback.

2) He has NEVER showed improvement. His entire time at Washington he showed marginal, if any, improvement from year to year. The same can be said for his rookie to sophomore season in the NFL. That's a huge red flag because it's impossible to stick in the league without getting better - all of your peers are getting better.

He was raw... after 4 years as a starter! That's bad. Look at Tannehill - this is a kid who's shown the beginning of an upward trajectory. Rodgers sat, sure, but there's no proof he'd have struggled like this had he played early (I'd argue after his JR year at Cal he'd have been fine - he was super accurate in the pocket forever and a good athlete).

Alex Smith is a unique case but he transitioned from a very weird offense and was brought into a million weird situations - his confidence was shot and that ruined him early because he's a very cerebral player. I also think his smarts allowed him to get back into a groove with a great coach. I just don't count on many guys having an Alex Smith-like revival in the league - he's special in that sense.

It's not over for Locker. But for the past six years we've been waiting for him to parlay all those awesome traits into good quarterback play IN and of course out of the pocket. He has shown minimal improvement and the only thing consistent with his play has been how inconsistent it's been.

Maybe he's an extremely slow learner/late bloomer. Maybe the light turns on mentally this year and he takes a quantum leap forward. Maybe he slowly progresses. But based on what we know about this player I wouldn't bet on it.

As for CJ, he is no longer in the top 10 in my opinion.

1) Peterson
2) Foster
3) Lynch
4) Charles
5) McCoy
6) Rice
7) Gore
8) Martin
9) Spiller
10) TRich
11) Morris

If MJD is healthy he's in there and the next argument is SJax/CJ.

I'm not going off body of work - I'm talking about who I'd want right now.

His weaknesses are too costly to take him over any of those backs.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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It's truly amazing how many of the people that are praising RG3, Wilson and Kaepernick are the same one's that are criticizing Cam (not necessarily on this board, but throughout the net)

Cam has had very little to work with, the only one even close is RG3. If Cam were a 49er I think he'd do even better than what Kaep has been doing.

Placing any of those 3 over Cam right now is really pushing it in my eyes.
I believe QBs make everyone around them better. And QBs SHOULD be tied to winning.

Simply put, Cam's had two years and has yet to win. I'm fascinated by his third year because he really came on late last year.

The other guys on those lists won. Did they have help? Sure. But they won with that help. I don't think arguing who's supporting cast is better in order to downgrade the player with a better one for doing well with them is worth anything. What exactly can a guy like Wilson or Kaep do to prove they are better? Ask to switch casts? Ask to play with backups. It's better to judge what we see rather than speculate what could be "if" "if" "if". It's a results game - those guys got great results year 1. Cam hasn't in two years. Wins is a huge part of it because of the importance of the position. And they should be.

I've argued that it's silly to engage in the supporting cast discussion but he does have Steve Smith and Greg Olsen... it's not like he's working with the worst group of skill players in the league...

And good QBs MAKE a supporting cast. That's a fact. Rodgers MAKES those receivers who they are. Ben MAKES everyone on that team go. Same can be said for Wilson and RGIII. Zach Miller had over 150 yards in the playoff game. The Skins receivers actually made plays down the field. Cam needs to do that. He hasn't yet. A LARGE part of a QB's job is to make those around him better. One of my favorite things about Eli.

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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Who the **** cares about anything that ******* assclown says?
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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I believe QBs make everyone around them better. And QBs SHOULD be tied to winning.

Simply put, Cam's had two years and has yet to win. I'm fascinated by his third year because he really came on late last year.

The other guys on those lists won. Did they have help? Sure. But they won with that help. I don't think arguing who's supporting cast is better in order to downgrade the player with a better one for doing well with them is worth anything. What exactly can a guy like Wilson or Kaep do to prove they are better? Ask to switch casts? Ask to play with backups. It's better to judge what we see rather than speculate what could be "if" "if" "if". It's a results game - those guys got great results year 1. Cam hasn't in two years. Wins is a huge part of it because of the importance of the position. And they should be.

I've argued that it's silly to engage in the supporting cast discussion but he does have Steve Smith and Greg Olsen... it's not like he's working with the worst group of skill players in the league...

And good QBs MAKE a supporting cast. That's a fact. Rodgers MAKES those receivers who they are. Ben MAKES everyone on that team go. Same can be said for Wilson and RGIII. Zach Miller had over 150 yards in the playoff game. The Skins receivers actually made plays down the field. Cam needs to do that. He hasn't yet. A LARGE part of a QB's job is to make those around him better. One of my favorite things about Eli.
I wasn't trying to take anything away from Wilson, RG3 or Kaepernick by any means. They all deserve the praise they've been getting. I just think Cam is unfairly knocked as a QB because of some of the things you've mentioned.

Not taking anything away from Rodgers, but he had 4 WRs last season that would have received considerable playing time on any team in the NFL, most would have started on them all.

A good QB makes the team around him better, and I think Cam has done that. But when you only have two legitimate receiving weapons, there's only so much you can do. Cam doesn't have the defense Kaep or Wilson does, and he doesn't have the supporting cast on offense either. Is is surprising he hasn't won the games? No, not at all
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how anyone can have Cutler, Dalton, Schaub, and Bradford ahead of Rivers. Newton, maybe, but for sure not those previous 4.
Rivers has essentially stunk it up these last two seasons. He's essentially on thin ice at this point. He's hasn't really outplayed those other guys. Bradford is the probably the only one I'd agree with.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:47 AM    (permalink
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Rivers has essentially stunk it up these last two seasons. He's essentially on thin ice at this point. He's hasn't really outplayed those other guys. Bradford is the probably the only one I'd agree with.
He's just been so inconsistent the past two seasons. Granted, he has lost a lot of weapons, hasn't had a LT and the new weapons haven't really panned out so I can't say it's not understandable.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:52 AM    (permalink
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Hopefully he isn't going to go down the Carson Palmer path and become a shell of his former self. Fixing their offensive line would work wonders. I'm also hoping that we finally get to see what Vincent Brown is made out of. He's shown potential the first couple of seasons, but last year when he finally got a chance he got hurt.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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Wilson ahead of RG3.......

ok.
I can make a strong argument for Wilson over both RG3 and Luck the way he finished last season. He's like a hybrid of the 2.

All 3 of them are going to be studs in this league.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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As for Rivers, I think he was never as good as people thought, but he's also not as bad as he's currently playing.

Rivers is what he is. You need to identify his weaknesses and build around them. He has a weak but accurate arm. He can't throw it intermediate with zip. So you need a Norv Turner vertical offense where he can lob it downfield and mitigate his velocity issues.

So to build that offense, he needs tall strong WRs who can go downfield and play jumpball, and he needs a speedy checkdown RB who can get YAC when the WRs stretch the defense downfield. He doesn't do well with small WRs, he needs big guys who can catch his lobs. He throws the ball like a punt, that won't work with small WRs.

So when he had trees at WR, a healthy Gates, and Sproles, he looked better than he really is. But now with no OL, or the right weapons, he looks worse than he really is as well.

He's a good but not great qb. Top 10 potential. You can win with him. You just have to build around his weaknesses.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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No real issue with the RG3, Wilson and Luck positions. I think RG3 from the bye was on a special run until the Ngata hit. He was clearly limited after that in terms of running. He still ran the offense well and made some beautiful throws. What I liked most was the turnover count, I really expected mistakes up at the level of Luck and that would have been fine. Five picks really give you a feel for how accurate he was. He wasn't lucky either, he was that accurate.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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As for Rivers, I think he was never as good as people thought, but he's also not as bad as he's currently playing.

Rivers is what he is. You need to identify his weaknesses and build around them. He has a weak but accurate arm. He can't throw it intermediate with zip. So you need a Norv Turner vertical offense where he can lob it downfield and mitigate his velocity issues.

So to build that offense, he needs tall strong WRs who can go downfield and play jumpball, and he needs a speedy checkdown RB who can get YAC when the WRs stretch the defense downfield. He doesn't do well with small WRs, he needs big guys who can catch his lobs. He throws the ball like a punt, that won't work with small WRs.

So when he had trees at WR, a healthy Gates, and Sproles, he looked better than he really is. But now with no OL, or the right weapons, he looks worse than he really is as well.

He's a good but not great qb. Top 10 potential. You can win with him. You just have to build around his weaknesses.
Theyve had some misses too at WR....buster davis, robert meachem, and they dropped the ball on jackson. Floyd is ok, but hes nothing special. Gates is on his last leg, matthews is terrible
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Theyve had some misses too at WR....buster davis, robert meachem, and they dropped the ball on jackson. Floyd is ok, but hes nothing special. Gates is on his last leg, matthews is terrible
Meachem was just fine in NO. He just doesn't fit the profile of what Rivers needs. Floyd is ok bc he was tall so the jump ball was still in tact.

But yeah, they had some pretty terrible personnel decisions that crippled that team. I think Matthews was the worst of the bunch. They traded a 1st, 2nd, and 4th for that guy.

Huge swing and miss, especially in one of the deepest drafts of all time.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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I think meachem would have been a much better fit across from stevie in buffalo, which is where it looks like he was going
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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In what world is Weeden better than any AFL QB much less say a playoff QB like Ponder.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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I wasn't trying to take anything away from Wilson, RG3 or Kaepernick by any means. They all deserve the praise they've been getting. I just think Cam is unfairly knocked as a QB because of some of the things you've mentioned.

Not taking anything away from Rodgers, but he had 4 WRs last season that would have received considerable playing time on any team in the NFL, most would have started on them all.

A good QB makes the team around him better, and I think Cam has done that. But when you only have two legitimate receiving weapons, there's only so much you can do. Cam doesn't have the defense Kaep or Wilson does, and he doesn't have the supporting cast on offense either. Is is surprising he hasn't won the games? No, not at all
100% disagree. Look at RGIII as a perfect example.

Newton has enough to work with to win. It's on him. It's on him himself and him to put his teammates in the best position to play better. Lafell, Smith, Olsen, and the RBs.

I don't dislike Newton and I think he's got the potential to be a top QB in the league. But in terms of ranking these players, all three of the players you named have already taken their teams to the playoffs. Newton's clearly slower in development.

And Jaws didn't cite just winning. He had legitimate critiques about his ball placement and decision making. Both of which were evident early in the year. But he also said he improved which, surprise, coincided with the Panthers winning games.

I look at your statement the other way around. You seem to think the three rookies (Kaep rookie for argument's sake) have to earn praise to leapfrog Cam. At this point, CAM has to earn the right to leapfrog them. That's just the way it is right now. Players progress at different paces and each situation is different. Rankings are always subjective because of this but my opinion on Cam is in line with Jaws'.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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100% disagree. Look at RGIII as a perfect example.

Newton has enough to work with to win. It's on him. It's on him himself and him to put his teammates in the best position to play better. Lafell, Smith, Olsen, and the RBs.

I don't dislike Newton and I think he's got the potential to be a top QB in the league. But in terms of ranking these players, all three of the players you named have already taken their teams to the playoffs. Newton's clearly slower in development.

And Jaws didn't cite just winning. He had legitimate critiques about his ball placement and decision making. Both of which were evident early in the year. But he also said he improved which, surprise, coincided with the Panthers winning games.

I look at your statement the other way around. You seem to think the three rookies (Kaep rookie for argument's sake) have to earn praise to leapfrog Cam. At this point, CAM has to earn the right to leapfrog them. That's just the way it is right now. Players progress at different paces and each situation is different. Rankings are always subjective because of this but my opinion on Cam is in line with Jaws'.
Understood, I just think it's a little premature to rank someone who played one season at a high level above someone who has played 2 at a high level, regardless of how many wins that has accompanied.

Put any of those 3 on the Panthers in the exact same situation, and I don't think they win any more games than Scam.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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From my understanding, he's ranking them based on last season. I think it's ridiculous to rank someone higher on any list because they have two years to someone else's one, especially if the one was superior.

And again, I disagree with your last sentence, which is arguing the unknown and pure speculation - the "if" "if" "if" game. I prefer to argue about what actually happens rather than what would IF. But I'll agree to disagree.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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How much better does Cam have to play to make the Panthers make the playoffs? If he produced any better we would have to change the record book to put a picture of him on it. Are we going to ignore how good Marshawn Lynch is and Alfred Morris or how nice it is to have a 1600 yard rusher in the backfield? Are we going to ignore how good Seattle's defense has been for a long time, or how good Washington's Defense got down the stretch?


Or do we ignore that Stewart and Deangelo are only going off of name value at this point? Or that the Panthers defense is clearly worse then those? I realize we would never know but I don't think Wilson or RGIII take the Panthers to the playoffs. I'm not including Luck in this because I think he obviously has something special in him and I don't know how the 'Chuck Strong' thing motivated that entire team and coaching staff to over achieve.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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The problem with Cam is turnovers... he puts up yards and td's but he also has a ton of INTs and fumbles
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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The problem with Cam is turnovers... he puts up yards and td's but he also has a ton of INTs and fumbles
Luck had 18 picks and 5 fumbles lost, Cam never had that many of either in both of his seasons 1 of which includes the rookie year with no off-season. He's also never had a QB rating under 80 which Luck had this year. Which is my point, it's a team game and it's hard for me to really blame much of anything on Cam because he played ridiculously good in his first 2 years in the league.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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The problem with Cam is turnovers... he puts up yards and td's but he also has a ton of INTs and fumbles
Didn't realize the 12 picks he had last season was a "ton"
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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Didn't realize the 12 picks he had last season was a "ton"
wasnt a ton, but damn some of them came at the worst time

My problem with cam is he is either dazzling and gets everyone fired up or he is sulking on the bench with a towel on his head, give them no hope or anyone to rally around when they are down
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Cutler at 14 is a-ok with me!

He's going to be awesome with 4 downs before punting this year instead of 3.
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