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Old 07-12-2013, 04:01 PM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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Luck didnt make crucial mistakes when it mattered, he might have tossed a couple in the 1st halves of games, but Newton would be driving down to tie it up and BAM a turnover ..


i would much rather my QB have a 1st quarter INT or even 2... but still have 3 quarters to make up for it than a game losing 4th quarter INT, even if he had like 400 yards and 3 TDs, if that INT comes in the 4th quarter to kill a comeback or give the other team the go ahead score it is alot worse.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
How much better does Cam have to play to make the Panthers make the playoffs? If he produced any better we would have to change the record book to put a picture of him on it. Are we going to ignore how good Marshawn Lynch is and Alfred Morris or how nice it is to have a 1600 yard rusher in the backfield? Are we going to ignore how good Seattle's defense has been for a long time, or how good Washington's Defense got down the stretch?


Or do we ignore that Stewart and Deangelo are only going off of name value at this point? Or that the Panthers defense is clearly worse then those? I realize we would never know but I don't think Wilson or RGIII take the Panthers to the playoffs. I'm not including Luck in this because I think he obviously has something special in him and I don't know how the 'Chuck Strong' thing motivated that entire team and coaching staff to over achieve.
Again, your argument is based on speculation, not what actually happened. Cam failed to win games with the Panthers for the early part of last season. That's what we can judge. You want to DOWNGRADE RGIII and Wilson for playing well with good running attacks? How about how much RGIII's presence made Morris what he was? It's always about the QB.

There is just no way to argue that Cam is the better player based on how they all played last year. Any argument for Cam starts with downgrading the other players based on their teammates and projecting that they'd do worse in a hypothetical situation rather than embracing what they ACTUALLY did. Judge what you see - not what you think you'd see IF IF IF.

And you have to include Luck - he too had a better season than Cam because of what he actually did. Forget the media driven narrative. There wasn't any magic - the team did what it did on the field with their hard work and performance.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Colin Kaepernick is number 11 in his rankings. I thought Schaub would be there at this point.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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I don't know how Stafford was that high. Freeman was 21 and I agree with that ranking and I thought stafford was worse.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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I don't know how Stafford was that high. Freeman was 21 and I agree with that ranking and I thought stafford was worse.
Probably because Stafford is better. And I hate Stafford, like a lot.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Again, your argument is based on speculation, not what actually happened. Cam failed to win games with the Panthers for the early part of last season. That's what we can judge. You want to DOWNGRADE RGIII and Wilson for playing well with good running attacks? How about how much RGIII's presence made Morris what he was? It's always about the QB.

There is just no way to argue that Cam is the better player based on how they all played last year. Any argument for Cam starts with downgrading the other players based on their teammates and projecting that they'd do worse in a hypothetical situation rather than embracing what they ACTUALLY did. Judge what you see - not what you think you'd see IF IF IF.

And you have to include Luck - he too had a better season than Cam because of what he actually did. Forget the media driven narrative. There wasn't any magic - the team did what it did on the field with their hard work and performance.


Where ever did I say I was downgrading RGIII and Wilson due to having good running attacks? Even slightly? I said it makes no sense to act as if having a 1600 yard rusher doesn't make your job as a QB much easier, or are you going to deny that? I also included how Luck had more INT's, fumbles, and a lower QB rating, pretty sure none of that was IF.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Luck didnt make crucial mistakes when it mattered, he might have tossed a couple in the 1st halves of games, but Newton would be driving down to tie it up and BAM a turnover ..


i would much rather my QB have a 1st quarter INT or even 2... but still have 3 quarters to make up for it than a game losing 4th quarter INT, even if he had like 400 yards and 3 TDs, if that INT comes in the 4th quarter to kill a comeback or give the other team the go ahead score it is alot worse.
Now your changing your argument which you never made in the first place. You said he has a "ton" of turnovers which I'm guessing you never looked in the first place to see how many he did have or how many Luck had. I'm not even a Cam apologist because of course he made mistakes but try to stick to one argument. I do think Luck is more clutch and I have always felt that way, but your just spit balling here.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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How can you change your argument which you never made in the first place
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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How can you change your argument which you never made in the first place
I think everyone's just easily irritated waiting on football season to get here lol
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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How can you change your argument which you never made in the first place
So there is no difference in saying "that guy just had a ton of turnovers last year" to "well he just has turnovers at the worst possible time"?
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Great list so far. Although Rivers, Freeman and Vick are too high.

Building off Jaws' list, I'd go...

32 Flynn
31 Kolb
30 Sanchez
29 Vick
28 Locker
27 Freeman
26 Henne
25 Ponder
24 Weeden
23 Smith
22 Palmer
21 Tannehill
20 Rivers
19 Cutler
18 Schaub
17 Bradford
16 Dalton
15 Newton
14 Stafford
13 Romo
12 Griffin
11 Wilson
10 Luck
9. Ryan
8. Kaepernick
7. E. Manning
6. Flacco
5. P. Manning
4. Roethlisberger
3. Brees
2. Rodgers
1. Brady
Roethlisberger ahead of Peyton? Seriously?
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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So there is no difference in saying "that guy just had a ton of turnovers last year" to "well he just has turnovers at the worst possible time"?
Yeah. Wouldn't that just be changing the argument though?
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:25 AM    (permalink
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it seems like i have stafford higher than most. He is handling the most one-dimensional predicatable and unimagiinative offense behind the consistenlty worst offensive line in football and managing 5k yards. Sure megatron helps but its not like he has anything else.

Its not his fault that his team is so bad he needs to try and win it by himself a lot of the time
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:03 AM    (permalink
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I'd go:

32. Flynn
31. Henne
30. Sanchez
29. Vick
28. Kolb
27. Locker
26. Pondner
25. Weeden
24. Tanehill
23. Palmer
22. Stafford
21. Smith
20. Newton
19. Freeman
18. Bradford
17. Rivers
16. Dalton
15. Schaub
14. Cutler
13. Romo
12. RGIII
11. Kaepernick
10. Luck
9. Russell Wilson
8. Eli Manning
7. Matt Ryan
6. Joe Flacco
5. Ben Roethlisbuerger
4. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
1. Aaron Rodgers
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:04 AM    (permalink
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The guy who I went back and watched more tape on, Bradford, is really intriguing to me. I think with hte development of the team around him, 2nd year in the system, St. Louis is going to be a contender this year. Bradford really improved last season and was more consistent, accurate, and displayed the arm talent. I think he's going to take a jump.
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:21 AM    (permalink
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I'd go:
30. Sanchez
32. Flynn
28. Kolb
31. Henne
29. Vick
27. Locker
26. Pondner
25. Weeden
24. Tanehill
23. Palmer
21. Smith
18. Bradford
16. Dalton
19. Freeman
20. Newton
15. Schaub
14. Cutler
17. Rivers
11. Kaepernick
12. RGIII
10. Luck
13. Romo
9. Russell Wilson
22. Stafford
7. Matt Ryan
6. Joe Flacco
8. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisbuerger
2. Peyton Manning
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
1. Aaron Rodgers
fixed if for me
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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Yeah. Wouldn't that just be changing the argument though?


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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Now your changing your argument
Pretty sure that was what I said.



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Originally Posted by bucfan12 View Post
22. Stafford

19. Freeman
Would love to know what Freeman has done to be ranked above Stafford other then play for your favorite team. We know it isn't playoff wins, we know it isn't regular season success, we know it isn't stats, so what's the reason here? Your own Head Coach isn't even sold on him and that's quite obvious.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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I'm really not an Eli Manning fan, but I don't understand how anyone could put Flacco over him.
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Old 07-13-2013, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Pretty sure that was what I said.
You only quoted part of your sentence. I'm talking about the entire thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Now your changing your argument which you never made in the first place.
Which is why I said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
How can you change your argument which you never made in the first place
I was merely talking about the logic in your statement for anything in general. Not specifically this debate you're having with another poster. Just seemed a little strange to me, which is why I made the inquiry.
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Old 07-13-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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it seems like i have stafford higher than most. He is handling the most one-dimensional predicatable and unimagiinative offense behind the consistenlty worst offensive line in football and managing 5k yards. Sure megatron helps but its not like he has anything else.

Its not his fault that his team is so bad he needs to try and win it by himself a lot of the time
Because yards is a rather meh argument. Stafford had one great year, followed by 2 injury years and a rather mediocre year last year. Only 20 touchdowns, 17 interceptions and 6 fumbles. Any QB can get yards with pass attempts out the wazoo, more and more QB's are throwing for 4000 yards now.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Pretty sure that was what I said.





Would love to know what Freeman has done to be ranked above Stafford other then play for your favorite team. We know it isn't playoff wins, we know it isn't regular season success, we know it isn't stats, so what's the reason here? Your own Head Coach isn't even sold on him and that's quite obvious.
Would love to know what Stafford has done? I'm actually one of the Freeman critics which my fellow Buc fans get annoyed at me because I don't think he's a Buc in 2014. So, to be fair, I don;'t think Stafford was better than Freeman last year. Freeman is inconsistent at times and needs to put it together. Stafford has been far more erratic than Freeman. And Still benefits from Megatron.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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Staffords numbers are inflated just because of the number of attepts he is putting up. He haslead the NFL the past 2 years and even put up over 50 more attempts than Brees last year. Megatron helps his numbers a bunch and so does the need to pass to catch up. I'm not sure I would qualify him as carrying his team when they still only won 4 games.

That being said, I'd still take him over Freeman. Stafford struggled last year but a 40+ TD and 5k yard year is impressive regardless of situation. Stafford got a big contract and Freeman isn't even sure if he'll be re-signed. Stafford's one year of brilliance > Freeman good/erratic play.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Freeman is borderline garbage and always has been. Suck it KState!
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Stafford over Josh F. I am interested to see how close to his last season attempts he gets. He set the NFL record for all time passing attempts.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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Freeman is borderline garbage and always has been. Suck it KState!
You sir are wrong on both categories!
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